Comments on: What’s A Couple of Slaves When You Have Good Theology? http://blackandreformedministries.com/2008/12/14/whats-a-couple-of-slaves-when-you-have-good-theology/ "But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises." Hebrews 8:6 Tue, 08 Dec 2009 23:18:30 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Hutch http://blackandreformedministries.com/2008/12/14/whats-a-couple-of-slaves-when-you-have-good-theology/#comment-5206 Hutch Tue, 16 Dec 2008 19:03:42 +0000 http://blackandreformedministries.com/?p=1211#comment-5206 Gabriel (G2)- Thanks for the great links you have obviously put in the time and effort to study and research the issue. Gabriel (G2)-

Thanks for the great links you have obviously put in the time and effort to study and research the issue.

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By: Gabriel (G²) http://blackandreformedministries.com/2008/12/14/whats-a-couple-of-slaves-when-you-have-good-theology/#comment-5196 Gabriel (G²) Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:44:32 +0000 http://blackandreformedministries.com/?p=1211#comment-5196 Love this thread.....and the discussion, which I thank the host Brother Tyris and others for allowing. Love this thread…..and the discussion, which I thank the host Brother Tyris and others for allowing.

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By: Gabriel (G²) http://blackandreformedministries.com/2008/12/14/whats-a-couple-of-slaves-when-you-have-good-theology/#comment-5195 Gabriel (G²) Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:42:22 +0000 http://blackandreformedministries.com/?p=1211#comment-5195 Thanks Brother Mike for the extra info.. Though to be clear, in reading it, I'm still less than convinced that Edwards is anywhere in the clear regarding whether his actions on slavery were at all no unbiblical/opposed to the Character of Christ. There'e still far too many factors that I see the book by Mardsen seemed to conviently leave out in the review given on Edwards---which, not surprisingly, is continually favorable toward the man. And if the realties of what slavery was like are not properly addressed, it's hard to take seriously the rest. Moreover, I must say that anything in any defense of others such as Edwards does not do justice when it fails to actually address others who were his contemporaries fighting much against ALL forms of slavery... <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wesley" rel="nofollow">John Wesley </a>is the main one who comes to mind ... (<strong>28 June of 1703 – 2 March 1791</strong>)---alongside others in the Methodist Church, whose theology actively made clear the system should've been fought against. Methodists, under Wesley's direction, became leaders in many social justice issues of the day including <a title="Prison reform" href="http://emissary7.wordpress.com/wiki/Prison_reform" rel="nofollow">prison reform</a> and <a title="Abolitionism" href="http://emissary7.wordpress.com/wiki/Abolitionism" rel="nofollow">abolitionism</a> movements that involved individuals such as Fredrick Douglass---who came much later (and whom I had to study for my African American Literature Class)---alongside others who were involved in abolishing like William Wilberforce ( <strong><em>24 August 1759 – 29 July 1833 </em></strong> )....for William Wilberforce was born a year after Edwards died and yet was supported by Wesely STRONGLY, with the man alongside other abolotionists being all able to fight due to much of the Groundwork laid by men of Wesley's character... In example, <a href="http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/wesley/thoughtsuponslavery.stm" rel="nofollow">some writings from the life of Wesley on the issue of slavery</a>... And for more extensive information,<a href="http://www.brycchancarey.com/abolition/wesley.htm" rel="nofollow"> one can go here (from one of the bests sites around in regards to British Abolitionists sites)</a> A quote from Wesley's Writings: <blockquote>When the vessels arrive at their destined port, the Negroes are again exposed naked to the eyes of all that flock together, and the examination of their purchasers. Then they are separated to the plantations of their several masters, to see each other no more. Here you may see mothers hanging over their daughters, bedewing their naked breasts with tears, and daughters clinging to their parents, till the whipper soon obliges them to part. And what can be more wretched than the condition they then enter upon? Banished from their country, from their friends and relations for ever, from every comfort of life, they are reduced to a state scarce anyway preferable to that of beasts of burden. In general, a few roots, not of the nicest kind, usually yams or potatoes, are their food; and two rags, that neither screen them from the heat of the day, nor the cold of the night, their covering. Their sleep is very short, their labour continual, and frequently above their strength; so that death sets many of them at liberty before they have lived out half their days. The time they work in the West Indies, is from day-break to noon, and from two o'clock till dark; during which time, they are attended by overseers, who, if they think them dilatory, or think anything not so well done as it should be, whip them most unmercifully, so that you may see their bodies long after wealed and scarred usually from the shoulders to the waist. And before they are suffered to go to their quarters, they have commonly something to do, as collecting herbage for the horses, or gathering fuel for the boilers; so that it is often past twelve before they can get home. Hence, if their food is not prepared, they are sometimes called to labour again, before they can satisfy their hunger. <em><strong>And no excuse will avail. If they are not in the field immediately, they must expect to feel the lash. Did the Creator intend that the noblest creatures in the visible world should live such a life as this? </strong></em> .......... <strong>5.</strong> And this equally concerns every gentleman that has an estate in our American plantations; yea, all slave-holders, of whatever rank and degree; seeing men-buyers are exactly on a level with men-stealers. Indeed you say, "I pay honestly for my goods; and I am not concerned to know how they are come by." Nay, but you are; you are deeply concerned to know they are honestly come by. Otherwise you are a partaker with a thief, and are not a jot honester than him. But you know they are not honestly come by; you know they are procured by means nothing near so innocent as <em><strong>picking of pockets, house-breaking, or robbery upon the highway. You know they are procured by a deliberate series of more complicated villany (of fraud, robbery, and murder) than was ever practised either by Mahometans or Pagans; in particular, by murders, of all kinds; by the blood of the innocent poured upon the ground like water. Now, it is your money that pays the merchant, and through him the captain and the African butchers. You therefore are guilty, yea, principally guilty, of all these frauds, robberies, and murders. You are the spring that puts all the rest in motion; they would not stir a step without you; therefore, the blood of all these wretches who die before their time, whether in their country or elsewhere, lies upon your head. "The blood of thy brother" (for, whether thou wilt believe it or no, such he is in the sight of Him that made him) "crieth against thee from the earth," from the ship, and from the waters. O, whatever it costs, put a stop to its cry before it be too late: Instantly, at any price, were it the half of your goods, deliver thyself from blood-guiltiness!</strong></em> Thy hands, thy bed, thy furniture, thy house, thy lands, are at present stained with blood. Surely it is enough; accumulate no more guilt; spill no more the blood of the innocent! Do not hire another to shed blood; do not pay him for doing it! Whether you are a Christian or no, show yourself a man! Be not more savage than a lion or a bear! <strong>6.</strong> Perhaps you will say, "I do not buy any Negroes; I only use those left me by my father." So far is well; but is it enough to satisfy your own conscience? Had your father, have you, has any man living, a right to use another as a slave? It cannot be, even setting Revelation aside. It cannot be, that either war, or contract, can give any man such a property in another as he has in his sheep and oxen. Much less is it possible, that any child of man should ever be born a slave. Liberty is the right of every human creature, as soon as he breathes the vital air; and no human law can deprive him of that right which he derives from the law of nature. <em><strong> If, therefore, you have any regard to justice, (to say nothing of mercy, nor the revealed law of God,) render unto all their due. Give liberty to whom liberty is due, that is, to every child of man, to every partaker of human nature. Let none serve you but by his own act and deed, by his own voluntary choice. Away with all whips, all chains, all compulsion! Be gentle toward all men; and see that you invariably do unto every one as you would he should do unto you. </strong></em> <strong>7.</strong> O thou God of love, thou who art loving to every man, and whose mercy is over all thy works; thou who art the Father of the spirits of all flesh, and who art rich in mercy unto all; thou who hast mingled of one blood all the nations upon earth; have compassion upon these outcasts of men, who are trodden down as dung upon the earth! Arise, and help these that have no helper, whose blood is spilt upon the ground like water! Are not these also the work of thine own hands, the purchase of thy Son's blood? Stir them up to cry unto thee in the land of their captivity; and let their complaint come up before thee; let it enter into thy ears! Make even those that lead them away captive to pity them, and turn their captivity as the rivers in the south. O burst thou all their chains in sunder; more especially the chains of their sins! Thou Saviour of all, make them free, that they may be free indeed! The servile progeny of Ham Seize as the purchase of thy blood! Let all the Heathens know thy name: From idols to the living God The dark Americans convert, And shine in every pagan heart!</blockquote> Witnessing his clear stances against slavery and the drastic differences in comparision with men such as Edwards, I cannot help but side moreso with another who even during Edwards's time called a spade a spade....and thankfully so, as Movements against slavery were birthed out of the holiness church and the early Free Methodist movement. <blockquote><a href="http://emissary7.wordpress.com/passage/?book_id=24&chapter=29&verse=7&version=31&context=verse" rel="nofollow"><strong>Proverbs 29:7</strong></a> The righteous care about <strong>justice</strong> for the poor, but the wicked have no such concern. <a href="http://emissary7.wordpress.com/passage/?book_id=24&chapter=31&verse=7&end_verse=9&version=31&context=context" rel="nofollow">Proverbs 31:7-9</a> "Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute. 9 Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy." </blockquote> Thanks Brother Mike for the extra info..

Though to be clear, in reading it, I’m still less than convinced that Edwards is anywhere in the clear regarding whether his actions on slavery were at all no unbiblical/opposed to the Character of Christ. There’e still far too many factors that I see the book by Mardsen seemed to conviently leave out in the review given on Edwards—which, not surprisingly, is continually favorable toward the man. And if the realties of what slavery was like are not properly addressed, it’s hard to take seriously the rest.

Moreover, I must say that anything in any defense of others such as Edwards does not do justice when it fails to actually address others who were his contemporaries fighting much against ALL forms of slavery…

John Wesley is the main one who comes to mind …
(28 June of 1703 – 2 March 1791)—alongside others in the Methodist Church, whose theology actively made clear the system should’ve been fought against. Methodists, under Wesley’s direction, became leaders in many social justice issues of the day including prison reform and abolitionism movements that involved individuals such as Fredrick Douglass—who came much later (and whom I had to study for my African American Literature Class)—alongside others who were involved in abolishing like William Wilberforce ( 24 August 1759 – 29 July 1833 )….for William Wilberforce was born a year after Edwards died and yet was supported by Wesely STRONGLY, with the man alongside other abolotionists being all able to fight due to much of the Groundwork laid by men of Wesley’s character…

In example, some writings from the life of Wesley on the issue of slavery

And for more extensive information, one can go here (from one of the bests sites around in regards to British Abolitionists sites)

A quote from Wesley’s Writings:

When the vessels arrive at their destined port, the Negroes are again exposed naked to the eyes of all that flock together, and the examination of their purchasers. Then they are separated to the plantations of their several masters, to see each other no more. Here you may see mothers hanging over their daughters, bedewing their naked breasts with tears, and daughters clinging to their parents, till the whipper soon obliges them to part. And what can be more wretched than the condition they then enter upon? Banished from their country, from their friends and relations for ever, from every comfort of life, they are reduced to a state scarce anyway preferable to that of beasts of burden. In general, a few roots, not of the nicest kind, usually yams or potatoes, are their food; and two rags, that neither screen them from the heat of the day, nor the cold of the night, their covering. Their sleep is very short, their labour continual, and frequently above their strength; so that death sets many of them at liberty before they have lived out half their days. The time they work in the West Indies, is from day-break to noon, and from two o’clock till dark; during which time, they are attended by overseers, who, if they think them dilatory, or think anything not so well done as it should be, whip them most unmercifully, so that you may see their bodies long after wealed and scarred usually from the shoulders to the waist. And before they are suffered to go to their quarters, they have commonly something to do, as collecting herbage for the horses, or gathering fuel for the boilers; so that it is often past twelve before they can get home. Hence, if their food is not prepared, they are sometimes called to labour again, before they can satisfy their hunger. And no excuse will avail. If they are not in the field immediately, they must expect to feel the lash. Did the Creator intend that the noblest creatures in the visible world should live such a life as this?

……….

5. And this equally concerns every gentleman that has an estate in our American plantations; yea, all slave-holders, of whatever rank and degree; seeing men-buyers are exactly on a level with men-stealers. Indeed you say, “I pay honestly for my goods; and I am not concerned to know how they are come by.” Nay, but you are; you are deeply concerned to know they are honestly come by. Otherwise you are a partaker with a thief, and are not a jot honester than him. But you know they are not honestly come by; you know they are procured by means nothing near so innocent as picking of pockets, house-breaking, or robbery upon the highway. You know they are procured by a deliberate series of more complicated villany (of fraud, robbery, and murder) than was ever practised either by Mahometans or Pagans; in particular, by murders, of all kinds; by the blood of the innocent poured upon the ground like water. Now, it is your money that pays the merchant, and through him the captain and the African butchers. You therefore are guilty, yea, principally guilty, of all these frauds, robberies, and murders. You are the spring that puts all the rest in motion; they would not stir a step without you; therefore, the blood of all these wretches who die before their time, whether in their country or elsewhere, lies upon your head. “The blood of thy brother” (for, whether thou wilt believe it or no, such he is in the sight of Him that made him) “crieth against thee from the earth,” from the ship, and from the waters. O, whatever it costs, put a stop to its cry before it be too late: Instantly, at any price, were it the half of your goods, deliver thyself from blood-guiltiness! Thy hands, thy bed, thy furniture, thy house, thy lands, are at present stained with blood. Surely it is enough; accumulate no more guilt; spill no more the blood of the innocent! Do not hire another to shed blood; do not pay him for doing it! Whether you are a Christian or no, show yourself a man! Be not more savage than a lion or a bear!

6. Perhaps you will say, “I do not buy any Negroes; I only use those left me by my father.” So far is well; but is it enough to satisfy your own conscience? Had your father, have you, has any man living, a right to use another as a slave? It cannot be, even setting Revelation aside. It cannot be, that either war, or contract, can give any man such a property in another as he has in his sheep and oxen. Much less is it possible, that any child of man should ever be born a slave. Liberty is the right of every human creature, as soon as he breathes the vital air; and no human law can deprive him of that right which he derives from the law of nature.

If, therefore, you have any regard to justice, (to say nothing of mercy, nor the revealed law of God,) render unto all their due. Give liberty to whom liberty is due, that is, to every child of man, to every partaker of human nature. Let none serve you but by his own act and deed, by his own voluntary choice. Away with all whips, all chains, all compulsion! Be gentle toward all men; and see that you invariably do unto every one as you would he should do unto you.

7. O thou God of love, thou who art loving to every man, and whose mercy is over all thy works; thou who art the Father of the spirits of all flesh, and who art rich in mercy unto all; thou who hast mingled of one blood all the nations upon earth; have compassion upon these outcasts of men, who are trodden down as dung upon the earth! Arise, and help these that have no helper, whose blood is spilt upon the ground like water! Are not these also the work of thine own hands, the purchase of thy Son’s blood? Stir them up to cry unto thee in the land of their captivity; and let their complaint come up before thee; let it enter into thy ears! Make even those that lead them away captive to pity them, and turn their captivity as the rivers in the south. O burst thou all their chains in sunder; more especially the chains of their sins! Thou Saviour of all, make them free, that they may be free indeed!
The servile progeny of Ham
Seize as the purchase of thy blood!
Let all the Heathens know thy name:
From idols to the living God
The dark Americans convert,
And shine in every pagan heart!

Witnessing his clear stances against slavery and the drastic differences in comparision with men such as Edwards, I cannot help but side moreso with another who even during Edwards’s time called a spade a spade….and thankfully so, as Movements against slavery were birthed out of the holiness church and the early Free Methodist movement.

Proverbs 29:7
The righteous care about justice for the poor, but the wicked have no such concern.

Proverbs 31:7-9

“Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves,
for the rights of all who are destitute.

9 Speak up and judge fairly;
defend the rights of the poor and needy.”

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By: lionelwoods7 http://blackandreformedministries.com/2008/12/14/whats-a-couple-of-slaves-when-you-have-good-theology/#comment-5184 lionelwoods7 Tue, 16 Dec 2008 15:34:17 +0000 http://blackandreformedministries.com/?p=1211#comment-5184 Navy brother. Navy brother.

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By: Steve http://blackandreformedministries.com/2008/12/14/whats-a-couple-of-slaves-when-you-have-good-theology/#comment-5183 Steve Tue, 16 Dec 2008 15:20:47 +0000 http://blackandreformedministries.com/?p=1211#comment-5183 I know you were.............what kind of beans do you use!! :) I know you were………….what kind of beans do you use!! :)

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