James 1:23-25
For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror;for {once} he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was. But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the {law} of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.
Mike Ditka is considered to be one of the best and by some, the best NFL coach of all time. He retired as a player in 1972 and Ditka was immediately hired as an assistant coach by Cowboys’ head coach Tom Landry. Ditka spent nine seasons as an assistant coach with the Cowboys. During his tenure, the Cowboys made the playoffs eight times, won six division titles and three NFC Championships, including the one preceding their Super Bowl victory in 1977. Ditka coached the Chicago Bears for 11 years and New Orleans Saints for 3 years. Ditka and Tom Flores are the only two people to win Super Bowls as a player, an assistant coach and a head coach. Ditka was the only individual to participate in the last two Chicago Bears’ championships, as a player in 1963 and as head coach in 1985.
Now being a coach or a trainer in sports does not mean that you are able to do what you expect done as well as the players you coach. Most coaches or trainers speak from past experiences or have done a lengthy study of the duties and tasks that they require of you and this is why what they speak is cherished so. Can you think back to Mike Tyson or Muhammad Ali in their prime? Can you imagine them losing their belts or titles to their coaches. The thought is insane and we all realize that just because you can logically put things in order does not necessarily mean that you yourselves can do them. So can we accurately say that Calvin, Whitefield, Edwards were just really good coaches who had our best interests at heart but chose not to implement these truths in their lives? Or to be 100% accurate, they chose to allow Christ to infiltrate some parts of their lives but not all. Is this something we all possess since no one is perfect? I would like to express some thoughts that were in before in the back of my mind but I now found the time to closer examine them. They are questions such as these:
- How could George Whitefield and Jonathan Edwards own slaves?
- How could John Calvin brutally have Michael Servetus killed?
- How can we call abortionist murderers but not apply that logic to these men?
- What does the Bible say about people like these men?
First and foremost let me say that I understand that the Elect of God are all one in Christ and I along with many others strive to build God’s church. I, being a black man do not have a bone to pick with these men but I think we have to be consistent with how we look at these so called “Great” men. I can surely see the providence of God in the Atlantic slave trade. Some may say I am scrutinizing great men who led flawless lives with the exception of this one minor detail. Simply because they contributed greatly by coining certain phrases(TULIP) and writing great sermons does not mean they were born of God. I know that is a bold statement but according to correct understanding of the scriptures as quoted above, people who hear the Word and do not practice are declared hypocrites. I am simply opening this up for discussion merely out of curiosity and insight from others.
Jonathan Edwards and George Whitefield were both very busy and intelligent men. Whitefield from England and Edwards born in the states. These men knew the scriptures well.. here are some great facts…
- Studied 13 hours a day from the scriptures
- Missionary to the Native Americans
- Whitefield traveled back and forth from America and England for the furtherance of the Gospel
- Preached great sermons like “Sinners in the Hands of A Angry God”(one of my favorites)
- Responsible for the “Great Awakening.”
- Raised funds for orphanages.
John Calvin the great French Theologian a few centuries before also had a commendable life. He did great works in clearly articulating the “Faith” and did much to restore Biblical doctrines first put forth by Christ and His Apostles and many others like Augustine and the list goes on. Calvin had many face to face conversations with Michael Servetus(who was clearly a heretic) regarding doctrine and the Trinity. Calvin simply lost patience with this man and he and the other ministers asked that he be spared being burnt at the stake and be beheaded instead. This was refused and on 27 October, Servetus was burnt alive at the Plateau of Champel at the edge of Geneva.
Some Arguments I hear on Slavery….
- Slavery is in the Bible and it is ok.
- Cultural Relevance-this was the normal behavior in that day.
- As Long as he didn’t whip them like Kunta Kinte-he’s ok with me!!!
Slaves is as old as mankind itself and we see the scriptures portray slavery in a positive and negative manner. In the Bible the greek word doulosis used over 100 times for slave, servant, or bond servant depending on what translation you possess. Paul uses this to describe us as once being a slave to sin but now we are slaves to Christ. This relationship would not be similar to the Hebrew-Egyptian relationship in the time of Moses or it would not be similar to a slave being mistreated like in the human trafficking in the Atlantic Slave trade. The book of Phileman is regarding slavery as well. In the Greco-Roman environment around the time before and after Christ we see slaves being in bondage for various reasons such as debt and just by choice. In this time area 1 out 3 persons were enslaved and this is why Paul taught that Christian slaves ought to serve their masters wholeheartedly, “as unto the Lord, and not to men.” And which attitude he also required the slave masters to have, treating their slaves fairly and without threatening, as they too had a Master in Heaven.
The Cultural argument can be addressed on two different levels. The first being simply that we are not called to be culturally relevant but distinct and contradicting the culture by being Christ-like. Secondly, history speaks to us in the life of Philliss Wheatley. Wheatley being raptured up so to speak to the America’s from Gambia at the age of 7. Purchased by the Boston Wheatley Family. These people were exceptional by teaching her how to read and encouraged her to write poetry. She later was free after publishing writings in England and other countries. She was in the same time era as Whitefield. This is evidence that people at this time were not all treating their slaves as animals but to the contrary treating them like Philemon’s master was challenged to do so. Certainly if Edwards or Whitefield were doing such things they would be know for it.
I don’t quite understand the disconnect in these great men. It is no question that these men led exception lives for the Gospel. Maybe Ephesians wasn’t published in America or England at that time…Maybe they forgot to read how we are commanded to treat our slaves…..Maybe Maybe Maybe…… I am still searching for these answers and hope to get a better understanding. But until then when I hear these great men’s sermons, read their books, hear great stories about them; I will unfortunately think of James chapter 1 and wonder if they fell in this category. With all the great knowledge and wisdom I have obtained from these men I definitely hope not.
What are you thoughts?
Tyris Horton
Tyris,
Let me first say that Edward’s slaves were treated “biblically”. If biblically means I can keep a person that has been kidnapped against their own will, and keep them in free nonpay labor for the rest of their natural lives. Not to mention you can trade them and by law not allow them to have rights that other humans with lighter skin have. Then sure it was biblical! Now on to my points.
1. In Reformed though right theology is better than right living as long as it isn’t homosexuality. So a man who writes good books can own and perpetuate the demonized institution called slavery, because of culture and a lot of good theology. However, if a Reformed Bishop arose today who could pontificate the same theology Mr. Edwards did he would be mocked and rejected because of his sexuality.
2. For some reason people have brought into the ridiculous notion that somehow slavery produced salvation for Africans (and colonization and conquest) as if God uses the means of something He hates to bring about something He wants. I am not for such a notion. Salvation for Africans were to be holistic not one deminsional. So God wanted the saved and He was more concerned about their salvation but didn’t care if they were beaten, raped, mutilated all in the name of some pseudo-jesus, these gentleman created.
3. It is funny that I see for sale the commentary on the bible of Mr. John Calvin but in the same breath he couldn’t figure out this verse “love you enemy as yourself”. For a man to be considered a genius on everything in the bible and somehow miss what the entire New Testament coveys (love) is a ridiculous notion to me. However, again his great abstract theology allows him to get a pass, that somehow, he could endorse the burning of a man and the imprisonment of others because they disagreed with my theology, while Jesus went to the cross for those who hated Him! Quite mysterious!
4. Finally it is funny that we are more concerned with a man who preaches a prosperity gospel, but who seems to be quite the loving fella but we praise and esteem men who displayed total disregard for his neighbor. This is whack! By the way Edwards wrote a book on “Love and its fruit” but somehow ignore “Love and its fruit”! So again a woman preacher is looked at with utter disdain while a slave owner and a man who have no problem with murderers are praised! It is funny that White Horse Inn is doing a conference on Calvin while mocking Joel Olsteen! Dude the hypocrisy frustrates me!
Lionel and Tyrus,
I’m glad you both are starting to question some of these so called “Christian men” who seem to more fit the quote about the Pharisses that you used (Lionel) in your vain attempt to describe me (one of the true brethren in Christ).
Are you still not seeing what I and many others believe to be the obvious?
Remember, let the blind lead the blind and they both fall into a ditch!
Yes, here I go again.
Do you not see the connection with the false doctrine of eternal hell and the false teachers who have had a major impact in spreading this lie. The Bible clearly tells us that Christ is our example of how to treat our enemies (love them, be patient with them, gentle, respectful to them) yet these so called great men of God have changed the truth of God and the character of God into a lie. They make God out to be crueler than any man in history and make Him out to be a great failure. This is why I’m so persistent (shouts out to Hutch) in trying to shed light on this great lie. I have used scripture that you guys seem to twist and change or simply avoid based on your current warped theology. The scriptures say God is reconciling all of creation to which you say He is not but only some and the rest of humankind (that was not selected by God) will suffer unimaginable torture for eternity. This makes no sense whatsoever based on logic and on the scriptures rightly discerned! The same men who seemed to be big on human suffering and torture in their lifetime seem to be the same main perpurtraters of this lie that God will torture all of His enemies forever. Doesn’t make sense (at all) when God upholds us to a greater standard of love and compassion for our enemies than He does Himself. Are we more loving and merciful than God?
WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!
“Hell was invented by men of power who felt it
was the only way to hold the masses of ignorant people under their power. It is the same today. If the people of power today REALLY believed the myths they
are perpetuating, they themselves would behave MUCH differently than they are. Seeing their own corrupt behavior should make it plain to anyone, these
political, business, and especially religious leaders have not the slightest faith in these things themselves; they do not think them at all necessary to regulate their
own lives, or keep them in order; but it is for the average people, the dumb sheep who must be restrained with fears of great terror in the afterlife. One cannot help noting the resemblance between those wise men of old and some of our own day, who seem so anxious to maintain the doctrine (eternal hell) on the ground
that it is necessary to restrain men from sin. I think it is time we “dumb sheep” wise up and get out from under the myths these men of corruption have used to hold
the fetters of our minds in check and check ourselves in at the sheepfold of the Good Shepherd who knows how to restrain HIS sheep with love, not fear.”
Here are some quotes from some of the men that many of you hold so dear and have greatly been influenced by.
Jonathan Edwards (A Calvinist of the “Great Awakening” fame. Newspapers reported people leaving his sermons and committing suicide from the fear he instilled in them.)
“The world will probably be converted into a great lake or liquid globe of fire, in which the wicked shall be overwhelmed, which will always be in tempest, in
which they shall be tossed to and fro, having no rest day and night, vast waves and billows of fire continually rolling over their heads, of which they shall forever be full of a quick sense within and without; their heads, their eyes, their tongues, their hands, their feet, their loins and their vitals, shall forever be full of a flowing, melting fire, fierce enough to melt the very rocks and elements; and also, they
shall eternally be full of the most quick and lively sense to feel the torments; not for one minute, not for one day, not for one age, not for two ages, not for a hundred ages, nor for ten thousand millions of ages, one after another, but
forever and ever, without any end at all, and never to be delivered.”
John Calvin (Who had some of his theological enemies burned to death in greenslow-burning wood.):
Calvin describes hell as: “Forever harrassed with a dreadful tempest, they shall
feel themselves torn asunder by an angry God, and transfixed and penetrated
by mortal stings, terrified by the thunderbolts of God, and broken by the weight
of his hand, so that to sink into any gulf would be more tolerable than to stand
for a moment in these terrors.”
The Reverend C. H. Spurgeon in his sermon Sermon on the Resurrection of theDead:
“When thou diest, thy soul will be tormented alone; that will be a hell for it, but at
the day of judgment they body will join they soul, and then thou wilt have twin
hells, thy soul sweating drops of blood, and thy body suffused with agony. In fire
exactly like that which we have on earth thy body will lie, asbestos-like, forever
unconsumed, all they veins roads for the feet of pain to travel on, every nerve a
string on which the devil shall forever play his diabolical tune of ‘Hell’s Unutterable
Lament.”’ (Quoted from Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin)
Excerpt from http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/TheInventorsandPerpetratorsofHell.pdf
Jon,
Dude we don’t believe in the doctrine of hell because it is taught by theologians. Just like I don’t believe in Christ because theologians teach it. Fall back bro. We believe in because it is biblical. The bible is where we deduce this doctrine.
Jon,
Hey, I really have a couple of more questions. I am going to give you a couple of verses. Lets ignore the “eternal” word, and lets focus on destruction. I was reading my New Testament and I want to know how you reconcile a universal redemption when both Paul and Peter talk of the “destruction” of these indivduals. If you upheld anniahlationism I would say I can see where you are coming from, but the language of seperation and destruction are to plain in the scriptures for me. So here are the verses let me know how you handle them.
2 Thess 1
5 This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— 6 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, 10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.
2 Peter 3:
3:1 This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, 2 that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, 3 knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. 4 They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, 6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. 7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the
day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
How do you reconcile this to a universal atonement bro?
Lionel-
Good point, even though the Annihilationist is just as wrong as the Universalist, the Annihilationist does have a better argument than the Universalist does.
Hutch,
I actually believe an annihlationist could qualify to be considered in the pale of orthodoxy. I think one can uphold the Gospel while also holding to annihalationsim. I still disagree but I would not call them nonbelievers. However Jon’s and other universalist perspective can’t qualify.
Lionel,
I abhor what happened to Servetus, but I would counsel you and some of your correspondents who jump on the bandwaggon to learn your church history a little more thoroughly.
We need to understand the context in which these events happened, before we point our finger towards these people, whether Calvinist or Arminian. Some of the Reformers wer responsible for many unjust deaths, why single out Calvin? By the way, when we point our finger at others there are three fingers pointing back at ourselves.
By the way, as Loraine Boettner, points out, ” Calvin has, however, often been criticized with undue severity as though the responsibility rested upon him alone, when as a matter of fact Servetus was given a court trial lasting over two months and was sentenced by the full session of the civil Council, and that in accordance with the laws which were then recognized throughout Christendom.
“….Calvin and the men of his time are not to be judged strictly and solely by the advanced standards of our twentieth century, but must to a certain extent be considered in the light of their own sixteenth century………………. The error of those who advocated and practiced what would be considered intolerance today, was the general error of the age. it should not, in fairness, be permitted to give an unfavorable impression of their character and motives, and much less should it be allowed to prejudice us against their doctrines on other and more important subjects.”
It would behove us to remember Jesus words to the Pharisees who wanted the adulterous woman stoned to death, “You who are without sin cast the first stone”.
My dear brothers, as much as I loathe what many of our forebears did, I cannot point my finger in disgust at them, because I am just as much a sinner as they. You and I cannot do that, because if we do, we fall into the same, “look-at-how-righteous-I-am” swamp in which the Pharisees wallowed.
How do I know? I was there once, and must still exercise much effort to avoid falling in again.
The stench is awful!
Avoid it at all costs!
It muddies the precious Name of the One, who didn’t point His finger at you, even though He was sinless, and you and I deserved it!
It was only because of the sovereign grace of our great God that, seventy years ago, I was born in a much more enlightened time. Many years later, you fellows also. By His grace you were not born, nor have to live, in the ignorant, dark days of the Reformers.
recognized throughout Christendom
A “Christendom” that would put a man to death for disagreements about doctrine no matter how egregious is a Christendom that knows nothing of what Christ taught, it is an apostate Christendom.
John Calvin and those who would do what Tyris mentioned namely studying the scriptures for 13 hours a day and the ungodly system they created is a perfect example of John 5:37-40.
You cannot read the NT as a born again believer withteh guidance of the Holy Spirit and arrive at a system that put hundreds of thousands of people to death supposedly in the name of Christ but in reality in the name of money and power.
Aussiejohn-
During the ignorant and dark days of the reformers there were true regenerate beleivers who obeyed Christ.
I really want to get in deeply on this discussion. If I write much, though, it won’t be today because I have to get a lab report written and a grad school application finished, both for tomorrow. It’s also looking like a busy rest of finals week. However, if I get in nothing else, let me ask two questions:
1. How well does any of us know the lives of Calvin, Edwards, or Whitefield?
I know little about them beyond when/where they lived and that they were prolifically writing and preaching Calvinistic Protestants. I also have some idea of what they taught, and that they are highly regarded by America’s Reformed big dogs (e.g., Dever, Duncan, Horton, Mahaney, Piper). But briefly reading up just now on Edwards and slavery – Sadish.