This is not an attempt to demean or nullify or to downplay the evangelistic methods of others. I do; however, want to communicate what I think “evangelistic methods” convey to others.
Most of us Christians live in the Christian Bubble. We have no real intimate relationships with non-believers. A great deal of us wear our morality on our sleeves and expect many if not all of those in our path to conform to our morality and thus leading people further away from us.
Because we have no relationships with people the need for Drive-by Evangelism has been substituted for the need to win people over with the love of Jesus. As a matter of fact one is now the other. We are told today (I have read this just recently) that the reason we don’t evangelize the way Ray Comfort and others do is because we have no concern for the souls of man. In other words you don’t really love people if you aren’t out there trying to share the Gospel with as many people as possible.
Let first say to those who don’t evangelize is such a way, that there is absolutely nothing wrong with the fact that you don’t. It is ploy, a tick, a manipulative tool to get you to do something you are not comfortable doing and may shouldn’t be doing anyway. I will say this quite candidly; attempting to get people to do things your way by manipulating them and especially calling their love for humanity and God into question is of Satan. Okay I am off that soapbox.
Back to where I was going. Because we believe that Evangelical Morality is God’s utmost concern we live very isolated lives. We don’t want our children interacting with the kids across the street, 99.99% of our friends are Christians or at least morally astute, and our idea of Christian Service is greeting or parking lot ministry. Then Comfort and Cameron comes along and gives you “Hell’s Best Kept Secret” or some other guilt trip that make you feel dirty because you aren’t evangelizing enough and you build up enough courage to order some tracts to leave on your company’s lunch table, or hand out with sweaty palms at the mall, or you join the churches evangelism team and go out in numbers to save the world from Hell.
Others build there entire ministry on what we call “street preaching” on college campuses or downtown in major cities and they feel they have reached martyrdom if someone curses them out. They feel they have suffered for the Lord Jesus because someone yells at them or throws a tomato at them. I will tell you this quite honestly friend. It is much easier to stand on a box, hand out tracts, corner people who are guilty and get them to say a prayer, or any other evangelistic method. It is much more difficult and life altering to sit in the house with vilest of humans, have them over for dinner, invite your nosey neighbor into your life, hang out with someone who’s vocabulary is more in line with a Bar around at 1:30 A.M. It is much more difficult to get to know your neighbors, to have them over for movie nights or game nights, to help that prostitute off the street, become a father figure to that troubled kid in the community.
You see doing life on life evangelism takes, time, energy, and maybe even money. A CD with a gospel message, or some tracts only take a little money and just like many evangelicals in America we love to throw money at problems instead of getting in the trenches with the wounded.
Let me end with this. I am not discouraging you from doing any of the above “methods”. But I implore and challenge you that the person who does give you that 3 minutes to do the “good person” would be more than an evangelistic conquest and they become a real human being. That since they gave you 3 minutes that you would take them to lunch or have them over for dinner (that is if you ain’t evangelizing 45 minutes from where you really live). I challenge you to first start in Jerusalem (your home community) then go to the outer most parts. I ask that you wouldn’t just tell the convert to wrestle with these issues, but that you will wrestle with them even if takes 5 years. That you will not just hand them a tract but give them your number even if they never accept Jesus Christ that you will befriend them as fellow human being. I challenge you to take the same evangelism team from your church to the same community that you were trying to convert and serve them with reckless abandon. My challenge is that you evangelize like Jesus. Who not only shared the Good News but served humanity by giving His life. The key to evangelism isn’t convicting people of sin, or getting people to pray a prayer, or getting people to say yes they will receive Jesus and not even getting them into church. It is reconciling people to God and becoming Christ to them. When we begin to quote quantity of converts instead of quality of disciples we have missed it. Not only that, if you will only relate to them based off of a decision for Christ then I don’t know if you are evangelistic as God is. It took Jesus years to win most of us over, God invested His only Son, how much are you willing to invest?
Lionel,
You know brother. The other day coming back from a cold morning under a bridge in Little Rock Arkansas I comtemplated why everyone isn’t doing some sort of evangelism outside. Then it was like the Lord reminded me that we are all different parts of the body. I realized I couldn’t be crititcal of my old pastor because he wasn’t out there on the streets with me. No, he is not that part of the body. I feel people who go out should know that they are called to that particular ministry. We need Marines, Army, Navy and Air Force. They are all equipped to do a different assignment. So it is in evangelism and preaching in a building.
Spurgeon his self and I am paraphrasing. He said, that one of the worst things we could have done was to put up brick and mortar.
Also remember that John the baptist was out. Jesus did both ministries. Stephen was persecuted being dragged out. So we have many examples from scripture on how to go and proclaim. So I am in agreement with what you say.
But for along time I always talked the talk and then last year the Lord put it on my heart to walk in what He has equipped me for . Evangelizing out in the streets and neighborhoods.
I abhore those who go over to Africa for an “evangelistic” outreach and then come back to the States and say we had 100,000 decisions for Christ etc. I don’t agree with the Billy Ghrahm outreaches either. I may be stepping on some sacred cows oh well. When God is not in it you won’t change anything except maybe someones mind. Not their spirit though. So again we must use discernment in every area of witnessing. It is not a one size fits all ministry. It is though a one size fits all gospel. But as many as will be called few are chosen.
I am off my soapbox now.
Love you man and keep the pot strirred.
Steven
Lionel, one more thing.
George Whitefield was saved because God used a gospel tract. What happened when God used him?
Man, I want to agree with you, but Christians have become lazy and are forsaking the great commission. Matt. 28:19 clearly states that we ought to be making disciples and teaching people all that God is commanded us. That will at some point involve opening our mouth and sharing our faith. Africa sends missionaries here because we are in danger of becoming Europe went it comes to born again Christians. We have a MANDATE from God to open our mouths and share what God has done for us through his gospel.
SO,
I said:
Let me end with this. I am not discouraging you from doing any of the above “methods”.
God can save by any means. Radio programs, billboards, church signs, even music. My problem is the primary method of driving by and not ministering. I am not against tracts, I use them I just have my number printed on the back and I ask each person I witness too to join me for coffee, or lunch or get their number and invite them over when I have something at the house.
P,
Where did I say not opening our mouths? You can share the Gospel without sharing the Gospel. Read my last paragraph again brother. Let me highlight this:
Let me end with this. I am not discouraging you from doing any of the above “methods”. But I implore and challenge you that the person who does give you that 3 minutes to do the “good person” would be more than an evangelistic conquest and they become a real human being. That since they gave you 3 minutes that you would take them to lunch or have them over for dinner (that is if you ain’t evangelizing 45 minutes from where you really live). I challenge you to first start in Jerusalem (your home community) then go to the outer most parts. I ask that you wouldn’t just tell the convert to wrestle with these issues, but that you will wrestle with them even if takes 5 years. That you will not just hand them a tract but give them your number even if they never accept Jesus Christ that you will befriend them as fellow human being. I challenge you to take the same evangelism team from your church to the same community that you were trying to convert and serve them with reckless abandon. My challenge is that you evangelize like Jesus. Who not only shared the Good News but served humanity by giving His life
P,
My concern is the drive-by method, I am 100% for sharing Christ in word, without hearing the need to obey the Gospel I am hard pressed to believe someone will obey it. The ambassador must proclaim the message, but I am more concened with an holistic evangelism, not driving by someone and giving them information but then having no concern for them as a unique human being not just someone to “save”.
well said.
I think there is a distinction between evangelizing and discipling.
I remember hearing this quote from St.Francis “Go out and preach the Gospel by all means possible, and if you have to… you can even use words.”
I think what St. Francis was trying to say was ‘don’t just tell somebody the truth, show it to them.’
Lionel, brother as I stated above earlier also I am in agreement. There are those that need to hear that some of the greatest evangelist were saved through tracts etc. that was just my point on that.
After I got off the computer I remembered that George Whitefield was also kicked out of the church and he preached on his fathers grave. Then we had the likes of Jonathan Edwards. These men did wonderful things. I realize that who you’re talking about a lot of people who just throw something at someone and leave. I have learned working with Phillip about taking the time to hear peoples problems along with giving them the gospel.
I will say as I posted on my blog that some are meant to plant, others water and God gives the increase. It is all a matter of discernment and Gods will.
I hear you though on the drive by method. It is like taking an Uzi and scattering bullets everywhere hoping they will hit something and they usually miss.
I urge anyone reading this post to look up the definition of evangelism. We are to be word planters not just church planters.
Thanks brother, Steven
A lot of good points here. I think we suffer from sharing the gospel as a form of mass production. Somehow the more we get out the better it is.
In the West this mass production is not working. Time, relationship and caring are key.
Sacred Vapor,
I don’t belive there is a distinction. At least I can’t find one in the scriptures.
MIke,
That is exactly what I was getting at. We want numbers we want charts to fills so that people clap their hands, but we don’t want to do the hard work of loving people. Evangelism apart from Discipleship is like Football without endzones and upright posts. The score will always be 0-0
Lionel,
Where we screwed up in evangelizing is when crusades started. You get a whole bunch of people in a place whether a promise keepers rally or Billy rally etc. . Then you have them repeat a prayer.
I really feel there is a distinction between those which are called evangelism outreaches and people who go out two by two or one by one and hit the streets.
I refer back to Paul and what he said about one plants, one waters and God gives the increase. We lost site of that and took it upon ourselves to get people saved. I gotten invited to a mission here in my city to preach the gospel and each time they emphasis to give the invitation afterward. Needless to say they haven’t called me back in a while.
The need is for us to depend on the Holy Spirit to draw men as we go out. When we see an opportunity take it. How many sit around and talk the talk but never walk it.
Friendship evangelism isn’t the whole answer either. In most cases you only have one chance to plant a seed.
I am not a numbers person.
That is another bad situation that was started by those crusades. Where are all those who raised their hands after an evangelistic outreach?
We need to be willing to hear God on where He wants us to go. If a person has never opened air preached then they need to be quiet about the subject. It is not easy.
It is something you take a chance on when you go out. Yes persecution hasn’t happened yet. But you still have to deal with people who harrass you and tell you that what you’re saying offends me. Plus they try to get you kicked off public sidewalks, call the police on you. Yell obsenities at you. Give the bird. How many people throw stuff at you in a building? Some may want to.
That is not being persecuted. But that’s where it starts. They are just showing restraint. Then there are those who sit in the parking lot across from where you are and listen. There are those who just got in town running from problems and they thank you for the message and want prayer. Then there are those who see what you are doing and want to learn also. Discipleship! There are people who are traveling on a cross country trip on bicycles who stop to hear the message and you get to chat. Not counting all the ones who may be driving by with thier windows open and hear one heart changing word they would have never heard otherwise. So there may not be that time of discipling when you are out like that. God may give someone else that pleasure.
One plants! One waters! And GOD gives the increase!
Try and go out to places where drunks interrupt you. You can’t put a three point sermon in place for a message outside it doesn’t work. The gospel is the word.
Lionel, The last comment I made is not directed toward anyone who already has commented. It is more for those who look down on all evangelism.
I got on a big soapbox and don’t want it to be taken out of context. This is just where my passion lies.
Steven
Lionel
I do believe that God calls us to utilise at least 3 methods to be witnesses to Him-straightforward evangelim whether one on one or t o a a group or crowd,the testimony of our lives,and good works.
It is a shame that we have more or less relegated the last 2 to the background iin these times.What we tend to have are merely mechanical conversions,and not deeds that reach people where they are,where they hurt.By the way I do know at least 1 Nigerian pastor who is convinced that all methods of evangelism are wrong.All that is required is to preach the gospel,no need for any method,no need for contextualisation,he says!
Truly, we need to distinguish preaching the word, witnessing, and conversion. Conversion is a work of the Holy Spirit. Witnessing is letting people know the power of God in our word and deed. Preaching in the original sense of the word is proclaiming the good news that Jesus Christ has come to die for our sins. These are distinct and I think they should be talked about as such. What is necessary for a person’s salvation is the Holy Spirit converting someone who has heard the good news from a preacher. Romans 10. Truly our lives should speak before we even say anything.
@ Lionel, I hear your point about drive-by. I think there is also a tendency for folk to truncate the gospel into a 5 minute message. Most people nowadays, don’t start in church, so they don’t have foundational sunday school background. I think that more people would have a true understanding if we spent more time on the major pieces of the gospel — divinity of Jesus, cross, resurrection, grace not works, repentance, belief. A great resource that we have been using is Christianity Explained that can be found on http://www.christianityexplained.com. It allows you to walk with someone for six weeks, get to know them, and share the gospel at the same time.
thats good stuff… I must admit
i was that christian that would rather do the drive by then to invest ( because of fear, and pride) …and it did nothing but cause me to view people as just “souls” instead of children created in GOD’s image with dignity…
thanks for that post..always good to be reminded of the truth
I think we need to do both. I agree with you on getting in the trenches…but I also agree with Ray Comfort on getting to the point in a conversation- especially when it is likely you will never see / talk to them again. I don’t think Ray would disagree with getting in the trenches either.
Charlie,
If you are never going to see them again, why share? To get them out of hell? I don’t understand the reasoning? Is it being led by the Spirit? Or do you just see a person, know you have an obligation to share with them (which the bible never ever tells us to make converts but disciples) then you give them the good person test and if they do make a profession you tell them “well find a good church”? I don’t understand how that works brother. Again it is like having a new born baby and dropping them off at the corner to take care of themselves. It is much easier (and more fun) to make a baby. It is much more difficult to raise a child.
Nicole,
That is exaclty what I am trying to convey here. We do view people as souls apart from their humanity. Jesus cares for both equally. And caring for someone to get out of hell without caring if they produce fruit and live the abundant life Jesus promises is dangerous and only obeying half of what Jesus commands us to do.
Tunji,
I agree. What I am trying to convey is the fact that Jesus doesn’t not ever encourage us to just make converts and keep rolling. That is a misapplication to what the Gospel is and does. The Gospel doesn’t just make us right before God, it drives us to a life for God through the work of Christ and the power of the Spirit that now indwells us. Evangelism today is more about either fire insurance or a check box to make me fell better about myself and isn’t focusing on serving and a life long committment of sacrifice for those God has allowed us to minister to.
Lionel, I must say that I am finally seeing where you are coming at with this. We do have to be discerning when we give out the gospel.
And not just throw a piece of paper at someone and run. It does become a situation that could bring more problems with those we are trying to help. We need to slow down in our walks along the “sidewalks” and truly be ready in season and out.
Steven
I am reading a great book I purchased at the Christian Community Development Conference( ccda.org) entitled “Reimaging Evangelism” by Rick Richardson
He opens his book, with this statement…“Over the years, evangelism has gotten a bad name. It is sales, manipulation, TV preachers, big hair, pushing people to convert and going door to door. It elicits feelings similar to the intrusive practice of telemarketing.”
My favorite part in the book is where he states that those who follow Christ need to see themselves as collaborators with the Holy Spirit in guiding people on a spiritual journey. IT was also encouraging to see him explain how evangelism is not exclusively reserved for a special group of Christians, but is something that we are all gifted to be a part of.
I think you all should check it out
I’m just saying
I struggle with evangelism just the same. Way of the master guys are on the money in their concern and zeal for the lost. Its thanks to them that I got fired up. Just like Lionel, I am figuring that evangelism has to be more than a 5 min affair with a person. Open air preaching and handing out tracts are good but complement that by inviting your neighbors or strangers to a bible study and relate to their struggle with life and death. These are people too, unbelievers will see that and they will another side of Christianity that they are not accostomed to seeing. Evangelism is not an us against them (unbelievers). People will see the kindness and love, we want them see how Christ transformed our lives, reflecting his heavenly light to a dark and fallen world.
“It is much more difficult and life altering to sit in the house with vilest of humans, have them over for dinner, invite your nosey neighbor into your life, hang out with someone who’s vocabulary is more in line with a Bar around at 1:30 A.M. It is much more difficult to get to know your neighbors, to have them over for movie nights or game nights, to help that prostitute off the street, become a father figure to that troubled kid in the community.”
it is life changing to learn to love, share, and to develop relationships with these folks.
They are hungry for Gods word! Once they trust you they start to open up and give you permission to share the Word with them. I spend many hours in bars, parking lots, and those icky kind of houses. I have talked about the Lord while people hit their stem, drank till they fell down, or while they tried to set up a trick to get money for food. They don’t have a mask to hide behind. I know where they are, who they are. I know why I am with them.
Tracs, bibles, food, soapbox stuff is a joke to them. But, if they can see the Lord in your eyes when you cry with them, hold there hand, or just saying,”are you ok?” Than they want to know about the Lord that calls you friend….
Frankie,
I have learned that the last paragraph is much more true than I first imaginged. Tell us more about your experience.
Lionel-
I by no means am the example of how to minister to the homeless, I am just getting started myself, but I was impressed by something while visiting Ecclesia.
They actually take a meal with them and sit and eat with folks who are homeless. This gives them time to spend with them and develop a rapport/relationship with them. Kinda in line with your evangelism post. The idea is that the homeless are used to having people hand food and clothes off to them, but they rarely have people stop and eat with/spend time with them.
By all means take the clothes, bibles, tracts, food with you, but sit down and eat with any who are open to it-then just talk to them about whatever comes up.
I was in Starbucks drinking coffee and reading yesterday and two homeless guys ducked in to get out of the cold and rain.
The manager kept looking at them nervously and a few couples who were sitting close by got up and left when it was apparent that these men were not in a hurry to leave.
They sat down next to me and I could not help but overhear them discussing the cold and how they could not locate their Starbucks card somebody gave to them.
If it was said for my benefit, I really did not care, I either took the bait willingly or they were just honestly discussing the situation.
I put my book down and asked them what they were having, they seemed suprised and asked me for clarification.
I said what would you like to drink?
They said regular coffee, so I got them a venti coffee, the manager did not look pleased.
I sat and talked to John and Shorty for about an hour before I had to leave.
John carried a guitar so I asked him about that and listened to him talk about what interested him.
Shorty was very quite and just followed the conversation.
John asked me what I was reading and I told him I was reading the Secret of the Strength-what would the Anabaptists tell this generation?
He wanted to kow what it was about so I told him it was about worshipping or following Christ as oppossed to worshipping the bible.
John thought that was interesting and asked me some more questions, then he asked me why I was interested in reading that book?!!!-man what a great opening.
So I was able to share with John and Shorty my entire testimony of being set free by Christ. They both listened intently and asked a lot of questions.
I hope and will look to see them both again sometime.
No, I am not patting myself on the back for buying two measly cups of coffee for these guys.
I did too little and have done too little for too long.
But I wanted to encourage you that slowing it down and spending time with people is the way to go.
This type of thing is happening a lot more often to me, it is sobering and exciting.
Hey Lionel,
Yes, I do thing I have a responsibility to try to evangelize, even if I will never see them again. It is #1, because they are not worshiping God, and He deserves to be worshiped for His glory, and #2 because I do not want them to go to hell. That does not mean I do not want them to be discipled. But I am not going to refuse to share the gospel with them, just because I won’t be able to continue the relationship. I really don’t understand why you are opposed to this.
Charlie
Charlie,
1. I assume you got the first one from Piper when he says “Missions exist because worship doesn’t”. May I ask you an honest question? If God wants someone to worship Him, will He not call them to Himself in order for them to worship Him? In other words, doesn’t God have to first regenerate the individual monergistically in order for them to worship Him?
2. Sort of like my first question in 1. How do you take this verse “it is not to him who runs or wills but to Him who gives mercy”? Isn’t the wrath of God on the nonelect? Hasn’t Christ secured all who the Father chose? If so how do you prevent anyone from “going to hell”?
3. I am not opposed to it per se. I think the Spirit calls us sometimes to share the Gospel with a person who we will never see again. However, this is the PRIMARY method of Ray Comfort and many other soap box preachers and evangelism training classes. The primary thing is what I am against.
Lionel,
Just a rhetorical question. What is worse?
A complacent Christian who never shares their faith or a Christian who goes out on the street corner and preaches?
SO,
Depends on who you ask.
Let me ask you a question.
Which is worse a Christian who goes on the street and preaches Hell, brimstone and fire, or one who invites his neighbor over, takes his coworkers to lunch, and ministers to those in his community versus travels 30 minutes to preach to people he will never see again?
Lionel,
You answered a question with a question.
What I am saying is I was that complacent Christian for awhile. Then I was introduced to the Ray Comfort series. I devoured the Hells best kept secret book. Then I felt the conviction to go out.
So what I am saying is God used the teachings of Hell’s Best Kept Secret to get me fired up. Granted I don’t agree to all, but it was the catalyst that God used to get me started.
I have been checking out some of the street evangelism sites and will very much disagree with their approach. They yell hell at the people. No grace! I would like to be the first to tell them off if that was my place.
God used street preaching for me to meet Phillip. Guess what happened there. Because of Phillip I now fellowship with you on your blog. (If that is good or not. LOL!!!!)
So there are definately uses for all types of evangelism. Not by compulsion, but by love and conviction.
I bring this back to Jonathon Edwards and the like. We quote a lot of Spurgeon so let me type what he had to say about it.
“No sort of defense is needed for preaching outdoors, but it would take a very strong argument to prove that a man who has never preached beyond the walls of his meetinghouse has done his duty. A defense is required for services within buildings rather than for worship outside of them.” Charles Spurgeon
How about R.A. Torrey
“Every great preacher of the Bible was an open air preacher. Peter was an open air preacher, Paul was an open air preacher, and so were Elijah, Moses, and Ezra. More important than all, Jesus Christ Himself was an open air preacher and preached, for the most part, outdoors. Every great sermon recorded in the Bible was preached in the open air: the sermon on the Day of Pentecost, the Sermon on the Mount, the sermon on Mars Hill, etc.”
R.A. Torrey
I finish with this Lionel, those who take Ray Comforts teachings and preach fire and brimstone without GRACE and LOVE have missed the message. I just ask that you not be to critical of Ray and what he has done. He has a heart for the lost, it is just those who mess it up because they are not following the Holy Spirit.
So which is worse would depend all whether the Holy Spirit is in it or not. We can do these things in our flesh just as easily as we can in the Spirit.
Steve
Lionel, one more thing about Ray Comfort.
I just want to clarify that, I don’t agree with how he uses a formula to get a conviction. I feel that he is leaning to much on his own understanding by using the “are you a good person” test. It is not a one size fits all way of reaching the lost.
I am not critical of Ray Comfort other than:
1. He uses the Law to preach the Gospel! The Law was never for the Gentile the Gospel leads people to Christ not the Law! How do you preach the Law to lead people to Christ but then turn around and say “the law isn’t for the Christian”. Paul’s use in 1 Timothy was to discount the Jews who were sneaking in not an endorsement for preaching the Law (which I actually heard him use the Sabbath! Hogwash!).
2. The manipulative methods of getting a decision, which is a huge no no! Thank you for your last comment, because I was going to open up the arsenal on that method.
3. Next the Open Air preaching comment is a strawman! We don’t know how the people who went to Antioch did it. We don’t know how the church grew in Philippi or Galatia for that matter. I guess you can say every good bible preacher is an open air preacher, but is there a bad preacher in the bible? That is like saying every Apostle that Jesus baptized with the Spirit is was a good Apostle. That is a circular arguement if I haven’t seen one.
4. To Spurgeon I would say, that every Christian I know preaches the Gospel outside of the building! Maybe they don’t stand on street corners, but they are in cubicles, feeding the homeless, at soccer games, some are at starbucks, others at the neighborhood block party inviting people to church and so forth. So again I don’t even get that qoute.
5. I am excited that Comfort got you excited the only problem is I feel that method is an unbiblical method. First the problem with the Law Here is a post from last year http://anunveiledface.wordpress.com/2007/12/14/a-bone-to-pick-with-ray-comfort-and-way-of-the-master/ don’t read everything on this site, but this one I still stick to! LOL!!!
Next again is the carbon copy, method driven evangelism that seems to rely less on the Spirit than on the method. When we read Acts we see all types of methods I don’t think either of them are to be photocopied then read!
So I am not totally against Comfort just mostly! LOL
Lionel,
I love to get you stirred up!!!! LOL!!! That is my gift to you…
I would ask this about how Jesus presented the law.
You heard it said you shall not commit adultery, but I tell you if anyone even looks at another with lust they have already committed adultery in their heart.
You have heard it said you shall not kill, and yet I say that if you just have hatred in your heart you have already committed murder.
Would that be just for the Jews? So if that is the case then we wouldn’t need the greatest commandment. Love the Lord your God with all of your heart…..
A real question for clarification, what about Galations 3:24
Wherefore the law was our school master to bring us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.
Is this presented only to the Jews?
Help me get straight on this if I am on a crooked path.
Hey SO,
1. Who was Jesus’ audience in the verses you quoted? The next question would be who was that Sermon for. Theologians disagree, where do you think I stand?
2. Paul is talking to who? Let me ask you another question. When were the Gentiles “under a tutor”? If a gentile never hearing the Jewish law never heard these laws, then I must ask how were they under a tutor? If you assume that Paul is referring to the gentiles being under the law, then you must also assume that Gentiles were also circumcised. Lets look at the verses:
19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20 Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
then lets drop down:
23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith
Now let me ask were Gentiles under a guardian? The answer would be no! Given the fact that Paul says in Ephesians 2 “you were alienated from God, without hope”. Gentiles had no access to God! They were cut off from the hope. So those under a guardian were Jews under the law (those who believed the promise) once Christ came they were declared righteous by faith. Just because Paul uses we does not mean he is saying: Galatians+Paul=we. Paul is referring to the Jews and is discounting the notion that they must be first circumcised. Circumcision (which is a sign of the Covenant) was part of the tutor, but now Christ has come and there is no need for such a tutor (law, circumcision…..).
Galatians 3:24 is one of the most misquoted verses in scripture.
um…I’m such a dork, I meant to post what I said above on the homeless ministry post.
Can’t stop interacting with Lionel’s blog…resistance is futile!
Lionel-
Regarding Ray Comfort remember the old London Baptist Confession of Faith that stated that the gospel is to be presented with no necessary terrors of the law and how the Reformers pressured them to change that to their corrupted version?
You can take anyone through teh 10 commandments (If you can get them to play your game) and if they are honest, you can get them to admit that they have violated God’s law. That does not mean they are getting saved or being born again by admitting they have sinned.
I appreciate Comforts’ goal to minimize unregenerate confessions of faith, but I think his manipulative tactics actually produce exactly what he is trying to avoid.
Lionel,
i would love to share what i do. at one time i was blogging about it but i started to wonder if i was looking for a pat on the back if you know what i mean. i will write soon again or send you an email.
Hutch,
starbucks is my office.
i have met more needy folk in anything from suits to rags.
i have one rule.
“let no man sit/stand alone.”
i always ask someone to join me or offer a coffee and just chat. thats it. just chat.
sometimes i get to give a bible.
sometimes i ask them… (i use this with homless too)
if God was here right now what would you ask Him to do for you? Then when i get a reply i immediately grab their hand or drop an arm around their shoulder and pray for that request. 100% success rate!!! if you could see the faces of these good folks it would make your day and or year.
I always give my number and check up. I follow up. i become a friend.
i see the fruit. it works, not all the time, but a lot of the time.
sorry for the long post
Blessings
Frankie G
Well, you answered my questions brother. I just wanted some clarifications, because I keep hearing the commandments is for everyone.
I realize the law was given to the Israelites. I realize Jesus was talking to the Jews. I also realize that sin is lawlessness, but I guess that doesn’t effect us gentiles though. Before we are Christ we still broke the laws.
The Lord can use any part of the Bible message to bring conviction.
People still need to know why Jesus died. He had to fulfill the law because no one could do it.
I don’t go for the sugar coated Jesus loves you and has a wonderful plan for you. Believe in Jesus and all your problems will be taken away. Those are half truths. The truth is before Christ we are sinners. And as I posted on my blog before. The cross is foolishness to those who are perishing.
Lionel, let me respond to your three items:
Charlie,
1. I assume you got the first one from Piper when he says “Missions exist because worship doesn’t”. May I ask you an honest question? If God wants someone to worship Him, will He not call them to Himself in order for them to worship Him? In other words, doesn’t God have to first regenerate the individual monergistically in order for them to worship Him?
Answer: Yes I do. It also depends on what you mean by God “wanting” someone to worship Him. He commands all to do it, and He also give me a commission to take that to them. So my love for His glory should compel to share the gospel. I don’t know who the elect are, so my motivation is the same for all.
2. Sort of like my first question in 1. How do you take this verse “it is not to him who runs or wills but to Him who gives mercy”? Isn’t the wrath of God on the nonelect? Hasn’t Christ secured all who the Father chose? If so how do you prevent anyone from “going to hell”?
Answer: I am reformed, so I know I can’t prevent anyone from going to hell. That doesn’t keep me, in an altruistic sense, from not wanting people to go to hell. When I see a person sitting on a park bench, I don’t want that person to go to hell. But if they do – it is to God’s glory. I can hold both of those truths at once.
3. I am not opposed to it per se. I think the Spirit calls us sometimes to share the Gospel with a person who we will never see again. However, this is the PRIMARY method of Ray Comfort and many other soap box preachers and evangelism training classes. The primary thing is what I am against.
Answer: I am glad you are not opposed to it. But I don’t think Ray Comfort’s way is wrong either. He is just declaring “Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand.” You have to do all these – be willing to confront someone with the gospel at a moments notice, AND be doing relational evangelism with those whom you have regular contact.
Charlie,
1. It doesn’t matter if you know the elect or not they will still go to heaven right? So you evangelize for what reason?
2. You not wanting that person to go to hell is pretty much irrelevant isn’t it? Doesn’t God want them to go to hell given Calvinistic Soteriology? You can do nothing to thrawt the plans of God right? In other words I ask again what exactly does your evangelism produce? Given your current perspective nothing for the hearer.
3. I think methodology quenches the Spirit. Everytime we preach the Gospel we say repent. You can’t give the Gospel without repentance or it ain’t the Gospel. I just don’t think you should do like a Insurance Salsesmen who made a wrong turn in South Chicago. You say you are doing because you love people, but you don’t want to do what the bible says love is which is to serve them. That is an oxymoron to me brother.
Lyonel, these are hyper-calvinistic statements. I don’t know if any hyper-calvinist would call themselves a “hyper” calvinist – but that is the perspective you seem to be coming from.
I’m not really sure how to answer your questions. I still feel like my previous statements stand.
1) I still evangelize for God’s glory, and because I was commanded to and I still don’t want any person I come to go to hell, while holding to the truth that if they do it is because God ordained it.
2) It is not irrelevant – it is part of my motivation. God uses my evangelism as the means to the end of His salvation.
3) Methodology does not have to quench the Spirit. God used a donkey – He can use anything. When we share our personal testimonies, it is in a logical order and using it is a method; sharing anything in a planned, coherent sense is method. If you do relational evangelism in a purposeful sense and with the hope of their salvation as the end, that is a method, and it is not quenched by the Spirit.
^correction….”does not quench the Spirit.”
Charlie,
You seem to be contradicting yourself. Or maybe it’s just me.
You stated:
“I don’t want that person to go to hell. But if they do – it is to God’s glory.”
Wait a minute. God gets glory for creating a being to be tormented by a literal fire for eternity?
So does this mean that you do not want God to get His glory since you do not want the person to go to hell?
Sounds like you might need to take “the hell test”.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hell_test.html
It should be very thought provoking and challenging to your current beliefs on this subject.
You also stated:
“I still don’t want any person I come to go to hell, while holding to the truth that if they do it is because GOD ORDAINED IT.
2) It is not irrelevant – it is part of my motivation. God uses my evangelism as the means to the end of His salvation.”
So is it your motivation and desire that God’s will not be done since He has already ordained it?
Lionel,
I will say this and then leave things alone. I am starting to see the light of where the law is not the way.
I realized after checking into somethings plus I found another site that really puts things into perspective.
To be quite honest I have been struggling with this issue of the law. I have seen some from my old fellowship leave because the pastor kept preaching law.
Plus when I have been going out to preach on the street I have just been reading the words of Christ out of the book of John. Mainly the parts where He says He is the door, and His sheep hear His voice and not the law anymore.
So I suppose the Lord has been leading me out of that mindset.
I actually broke down earlier on this and that may be the Lord convicting me of where I still have error.
Thanks, brother.
That’s why I keep coming back.
The torcher and the grace.
Steve
Hey Charlie,
I am enjoying the dialouge if you would continue with me let me ask some more questions.
1. So God creates and then cast people into hell? But you evangelize because God commands you to do something that in the end He has already decided. So your evangelizing really isn’t for the souls of individuals because there is no efficacious result in the end. It is really so you obey God?
2. Why do you say God uses your evangelism? He has already elected them rather you evangelize or not they will be saved right? For example if a newborn who was part of the elect was flown in a spaceship to the moon and never had any contact with any humans from birth, He will still hear the Gospel and be saved right? Because he is elect right? So your evangelism does nothing God’s election does everything. Because if we all decided to stop sharing the Gospel today everyone will who is destined for Hell will go and for Heaven will go right?
3. God doesn’t then turn and say “hey Apostles, the best way to evangelize is by using a Jackass, it is fail proof! Get a Jackass involved in your evanglism and you surely have a winner” right? What method does Jesus use? Or do you understand what I mean by methodology? Let me try it this way. It is like getting frisky with the wife after bringing her some flowers. So instead of listening to her, seeing what else she likes and finding other ways to romance her, everytime you want to be frisky you just bring flowers? It worked the first time it has to work again right? Wrong! Try it and see if it works. If we look through Acts we don’t see “one” method as Ray Comfort and now you endorse we see a dependence on the Spirit not a method. To try to replicate a method instead of depending on the Spirit in each unique situation is quenching the Spirit and trusting in the “traditions of men”.
Finally. Every Calvinist is a hyper-calvinist with the lights off. Both Hyper Calvinist and Calvinist affirm the same thing. God elects who will go to Hell and who will go to Heaven and what we do doesn’t really matter. You may try to dress a poodle up like horse but try to ride him like one and see what you get.
I meant torture…..LOL!!!
Lol. That last part was funny. Not true. But funny.
I hold to the same view as, say, John Piper; and he has done a better job of defending it in his writings that I could. So I’ll leave what he has said as my defense. I suppose that’s the easy way out, but that’s all I have the time or energy for right now.
But hyper-calvinism and calvinism are not the same. Hyper-calvinism is a techinical term and has a technical definition….I can’t remember it all word for word, right now, but you can find it if you look. John Piper, MacArthur, James White, etc., etc., all say that, and deny that they are and they give support for that. As a matter of fact, just recently on James White’s blog he has gone into that. Look into the last couple weeks archive on his blog, and you can see his defense of that, from that accusation (hyper) made against him from the John 3:16 conference in ATL.
Is it just me, or does it seem a bit weird and even futile for people to be trying to devise a mode of evangelism that would supposedly do away with the four responses to the gospel message as indicated in the parable of the soils?
Futile it is!
Wow! What a thread! It’s great to see so much excitment about evangelism. Seems like there are a lot of good points all round.
I really appreciate our brothers heart exhorting us to live out the gospel in serving others as servants of Christ through finding ways to proactively demonstrate selfless care for them. That effects people. But I also see that we need to make the message known. Honestly, I see both in Scriptue and don’t think we can neglect either. That is when we run into trouble, we emphasise one over the other.
Hey, God bless you all. As we follow our Lord and He will lead us along!