Over the course of blogging I have figured out some things. Mostly this is for myself so as you read it I want you to see this. I want to start out with the words of Jesus:
37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”
This is to define my life and regardless of how well my ecclesiology, discipleship, evangelism, doctrine and morality are, they are worthless apart from Jesus’ commands. So my question to myself is this: Is my learning and wrestling and fighting and blogging and reading and churching and evangelism leading me towards obeying these commands?
The nature of God is found in Christ and the nature of Christ is found in these verses. He pointed to Himself on the road to Emmaus which was the fact that all scripture was pointing to Him both in Moses and the prophets. He then says in the verses above that “all the law and prophets depend on loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself”.
Here is where I want to go. I believe there are many ways to do church, I think most doctrines are parts of the sum of truth. In other words the way we meet and some of the things we believe may be less relevant than we make it. Should these things be debated? Sure! However, if these things don’t cause us to love God and love others the way Jesus commands us what we do and what we believe is of no benefit to the Kingdom whatsoever.
Let me try this. Rather you go to a traditional church or an organic church, rather you meet in a house or a building, rather you believe in Elder Ruled or a more Participatory governance structure, rather you believe in Covenant Theology or New Covenant Theology, rather you belive Homeschooling or Public schooling is the best way to educate your children rather you believe in the Rapture or like me an Amill fella. Rather you are egalitarian or complemetarian, rather you are a Calvinist or Arminian or avoid labels altogether, rather you like the one man pulpit preaching style or an all church inclusive, rather you believe in infant or credo baptisms, rather you like theological terms or despise them, rather you do street preaching or have your neighbors over for dinner as an evangelism tool, rather you are Reformed Baptist or Anglican, rather you feel being missional is sending missionaries or cutting someone’s grass, rather you think Senior Pastors is part of the fall or a lack of identifiable church government is sin and finally rather write books, blog, or both, let me say this. If vertical and horizontal love isn’t your undying passion what you are doing amounts to nothing in relation to Kingdom Value, regardless of the perceived success or failure that come by doing things or believing things.
I have come to the conclusion that most people that I know or at least most people that comment on this blog and I comment on theirs, or we have talked on the phone, or have met them for coffee, or have debated them online, or I have visited their church or read their books or listened to their sermons, have Christ as their up-most prize. Do I agree with them? Not most. But in the short time of doing what I do, I believe there motives to be of the purest. Rather that is fighting for theological truth, exposing error, wrestling with the “right” way to do ecclesiology, rather that is fighting for or against women in the pulpit, rather that is throwing a jab at Calvinist or Arminians, rather that is trying to institute church discipline, having people sign covenants, building mega churches or renting out buildings. Rather that is being on stage with people that a lot of Christians like or dislike and even if that is writing books that could be perceived as too soft or too hard. Most of these individuals are doing their best to love God and love (wo)man!
I have theological distincitives and ecclesiological distinctives and eschatological distinictives and a certain system of theology, and I read my bible a certain way (http://www.beginningwithmoses.org/) . I believe we should only baptize disciples, I am wrestling through how we should meet. I believe in Election/Predestination, I also am wrestling through 1 Timothy 2 (I like Gordan Fee’s and Jon Zens argument), I like both teaching styles, and some of my favorite preachers are Presbyterians of the PCUSA persuasion for some reason (especially Dale Ralph Davis) though I uphold New Covenant Theology. I am sort of a Complemetarian in practice (again I like Zen’s and Fee’s argument) though I really like Kathy Escobar’s blog and spirit . I happen to be a member of a church called Lifeline Bible Church which is a Dispensational Church (which I am radically opposed to) funded by a Church where one of the greatest men I have ever met preaches expositorily week after week! I am mixed bag to be short!
At the end of the day though. I love Jesus. I mess up sometimes. I flip flop a lot. My hearts desire is to see people come to know the freedom that comes in Christ. Sometimes I live a self-preserved life, when I know I should give more of myself. Sometimes I engage in arguments that I wished I never even touched, sometimes I say things that hurt people, sometimes I care more about ideology and abstract ideas than I do individuals, sometimes I sin, sometimes I read my bible and serve people and work hard and give a bunch and sometimes I don’t. Sometimes I read the bible and wonder if I am really picking up my cross. Sometimes I look and see am I storing up treasure that I don’t want to part with. Sometimes I write posts for the sake of getting people feathers a bit roughed up and sometimes to express my heart. Sometimes I am selfless husband and sometimes I am not. Some days I do real good as a parent and sometimes I don’t, sometimes I am selfish, self-centered and other days I am sacrificial, somedays I wish I can go and be with the Lord and other days I don’t want Jesus to come back for a million years, somedays I read Philippians 3 and I nod with eager and vigorous agreement and other times I don’t!
At the end of the day what I can say with full assurance is that Jesus born of a virgin, living a sinless life, went to the cross for me and paid the penalty that I should have paid and would have been 100 gazillion dollars short! I have tasted the grace of the Lord Jesus and know it to be real. I have experienced a full work of the Spirit in my life and understand the joy of being seated with Him at the right hand of the Father. I can say I do desire to love God and my neighbor and a lot of times I fall far short so I am thankful for a Savior who not only saves me but intercedes for me, who not only justified me but who is seeing my sanctification through.
I close with this. I desire to know the truth about all the things I mentioned above. I really do! I spent countless hours praying about them and searching for them in the bible while trying not to lose the purpose of the Scriptures which is Jesus in the details or missing the forest due to the trees. I want to be obedient and believe all the right stuff, I want to make sure that Jesus is satisfied with me! But at the end of the day I know that is nothing but the grace of God by the blood of the Lamb that reconciles me to God and at the end of the day I want to love a God who loves me and love my neighbor because God loves me. I know I deserve only His wrath, but now I can call Him Dad, and all of this rests on a Savior who died for me. I pray that at the end of all of your wrestling you don’t miss the Savior! Our lives are hidden in His if you have trusted Him, don’t stop wrestling but never forget the one all of this is about!
Lionel, thank you for showing us your heart; substituting some personal details, it would describe mine, too. Arousing worship and imitation of Christ, love of God and love of neighbor — that’s God’s awesome work in his church!
Lionel,
Amen brother. We are to stir one another not out do each other. I find myself doing to much of the I am right you are wrong thing also.
There was an old country and western song with that title when I was little tike in the 70’s. Man I am getting old….LOL!!!!
Nothing but love for you brother…
I may be in Texas Christmas time. So if gas prices stay where they are I will try to hunt you down. OK?
Steven
Brother you are the most prolific blogger that I have ever seen! I do not know how you do it!
You are so right we must hammer out our doctrinal convictions and then get on to living the life of a disciple, taking up our cross, following Jesus, loving God and our neighbor.
Could you please do me a big favor? Can you delete my comments about Christ Fellowship KC especially the one about running from their web-site?
Then can you please forward my sincere apology on to anyone you know in that fellowship who may have been offended by my harsh and rash comments?
I have become way too focussed on one of my pet-peeves regarding the dangers of signing church covenants and making vows/oaths to others.
My comments were not made with charity or with love as the motivation.
I am putting myself in the bad blogger time-out corner until next year so that I can begin to learn how to love others in both my speach and actions.
Stacy and I will be leaving the country in the next few weeks and will return mid January.
I will look you and your blog up at that time.
I will be in town for a few more weeks so give me a call if you need anything-and better yet if you are anywhere near H town give me a call and we can go do lunch-I know a BBQ joint in a bad part of town with ribs that fall off the bone, they smoke them for 3 days!
If we do not get together this year we have to get together next year.
I have learned a lot from everyone who participates on this blog-I wish you all a blessed time with our Savior and your families thsi holiday season.
Blessings in Christ.
Lionel,
First off, I don’t want this to be taken in the wrong way. I sincerely am at a stand still when it comes to this apparent problem in scripture. And if someone has adequtely addressed this apparant contradiction in scripture, I would love to revist their study/argument.
Lionel you stated in this post:
“I believe in Election/Predestination, I also am wrestling through 1 Timothy 2 (I like Gordan Fee’s and Jon Zens argument)”
What was the argument concerning in this chapter of scripture?
Is there a link to the argument?
Curius as to if the argument is mainly addressing 2:11-15 or verses 3-4.
I Timothy 2:3-4
“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, WHO DESIRES ALL MEN TO BE SAVED AND TO COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH.”
This verse would seem to cause a problem with what I believe you consider to be “Election/Predistination”. (or maybe not depending on what you believe about this)
Here is my problem:
For if we ALL sinned and deserve death and God has to draw us to Him to be saved. Then why would He say He desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth if in fact He has already decided to choose/elect only a few to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth. There are other scriptures that seem to create this same type of contradiction. I have tried posing these types of problems to you and your readers in the past but with little or no resolve to this issue.
I would be very intersted in reading the argument especially if it addresses this apparent contradiction in scripture.
Sincerly,
Jon Paden
Jon it is reference to vs 11 and going forward. By the way you believe in a hyper 3rd point/atonement why beef with election?
Amen bro…without love we are nothing.
Appreciate your heart…
Q
Jon, although I have only skimmed it, John Piper’s article Are There Two Wills in God? deals at intermediate length (~10,000 words) with this issue. He concludes that yes, God wills only to save some and wills salvation of all, albeit in different senses. Piper discusses how God purposes things He hates, and refrains from accomplishing others He approves, throughout Scripture. Without contradiction, God likewise doubly predestines even as He universally, compassionately loves.
Lionel and Mike,
Thanks for the feedback.
BTW Lionel,
What is hyper 3rd point/atonement?
http://www.texanonline.net/default.asp?action=article&aid=6011&issue=11/28/2008
Brother Woods,
Excellent post! I am often burdened that too many “saints” do not take Paul’s admonition seriously that we “endeavor to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.”
Who am I? I’m just your basic black Southern Baptist like Brother Bacham. By the way, I attached a link - I was recently in your state (Houston to be exact).
Hey Lionel,
I find you pretty well spot on!!! And I enjoy the Reformed lens you view Scripture with. I put stuff on my Blog not because “I’m there” but because iron sharpens iron for the greater good when debate is done in love.
May God continue to bless you greatly in wisdom.
Lionel that was a great point about the 3rd point/atonement.
I haven’t commented in a while Lionel. Bro, your view has helped me understand biblical theology better. A love for Christ Jesus is a love for understanding theology bro. Just keep doing what you do bro. How’s your new baby?
Karsten Miller
Mike O,
Thanks brother! I greatly appreciate your input and feedback. Yeah I have read and listned to Piper’s DOG position. I am going to do something funny here in a few days. It will be called “Plucking a TULIP One Petal at a Time”. Should be fun.
SO,
I will be off the entire time from the 25th through the 2nd. I would love to take you to breakfast and connect with you. My number is 972-816-7024
Hutch,
I got you covered! Thanks for the kind words my friend! We won’t be in Houston for sure until next Thanksgiving but if before then I will give you a call Sir.
Q,
This Christmas break will be a good time for us to finally hook up if you have time. Will you be in Maryland?
John,
The 3rd point in the TULIP is called “Limited or Particular Atonment”. You have a Hyper position! You believe EVERYONE will be saved because of Jesus’ work on the cross. For you to have a problem with Election is like a Klu Klux Klan member calling Skinheads or the Nation of Islam Racists!
Mark,
Thanks brother! I really liked your post on being questioned about Church and the funny looks you get. I hope you expound upon that more. I really believe that works for you in this season and we gather because of relationship not for the sake of gathering. Lovely brother and thanks.
Brian,
That should get him going! Hey man how close are you to Winston Salem? Elder Burrell and them would love you over there.
KM,
I am going to load those pictures this weekend for you if I remember they are pictures of the Dallas Championship travel stuff that was at the Texas State Fair. I thought about you and was glad my wife had the camera. By the way thanks for the kind words and this baby here is much more spoiled than my first (Caleb) ever was!
Hey,
Smithbaptist! I know who you are! Never made the connection though. That is sooooo funny. I was going to go to T4G and visit your spot while I was up there. You still pastor don’t you?
I am about 3 hours from Winston Salem…I used to live in greensboro which is 30 minutes though from winston salem.
But you know you have opened up a can of worms…
Jon,
Can we can do “ALL things through Christ” as well…So I can kill someone in the name of Christsince we can do all things through him.
Jon Paden, I would like to address your “all” comment also.
Lionel, I will use my learned theology here. LOL!!
“The whole world has gone after him” Did all the world go after Christ? “then went to Judea, and were baptized of him in the Jordan.” Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in the Jordan? Ye are of God little children, and the whole world lieth in the wicked one.”
Does the whole world mean everybody?
The words “world” and “all” are used in some sense or eight senses in scripture, and it is very rarely the “all” means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts —–some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile.
This is a quote from Charles Spurgeon (Particular Redemption)
Jon go to http://www.net.bible.org and do scripture search. This site gives you a Greek or Hebrew meaning behind the words in scripture. I find it very helpful when I want to know what the words used mean.
Steven
Amen and amen and amen.
Love is the ultimate purpose!
Brian and SOwen,
I understand your point with “ALL” but considering the context of the following scriptures, I don’t see how you can twist its context to me only some. It would seem as if you are forcing a theological assumption into the scriptures. Here are a few of those scriptures that seem to really speak of ALL humanity individually:
I Cor 15:22
For as in Adam ALL DIE, even so in Christ ALL SHALL BE MADE ALIVE.
Is the ALL who die in Adam, not the same All who shall be made alive in Christ?
Rom 11:32
For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
Colossians 1:20
and by Him to reconcile ALL things to Himself, by Him, WHETHER THINGS ON EARTH OR THINGS IN HEAVEN, HAVING MADE PEACE THROUGH THE BLOOD OF HIS CROSS.
Is God not really reconciling all things on Earth and in Heaven but only some?
1 Cor 15:28
Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
Is God going to only be all in ONLY SOME at the consumation of the ages? Are only some going to be subject to Him?
Eph 1:10
as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Him, things in heaven and things on earth
These are just some of the many examples in scripture that seem to speak of ALL humanity individually. Maybe its just me, but it seems that you are forcing the “All” in these scriptures to mean something else.
Mike,
Here are some of my thoughts so far on the argument that was presented.
So far, I do not believe in God having two OPPOSING wills. I think that it is a matter of what He allows/permits with our free wills in order to accomplish His plan of restoration of all of creation through Christ. God foreknows everything and in His infinite wisdom, power, and mercy He has designed His creation to accomplish His plan (desire/will/pleasures) in conjunction with the element of free will in His creations. Therefore, He will harden (allow man to continue in sin to a certain capacity) or restrict mans will to sin (in a certain capacity) in order to fulfill His plan. God has called/chosen/elected some in this present age for certain purposes and has allowed and is allowing some to continue in sin (to a certain degree) for His purposes. Again, part of His will/purpose is to reconcile/restore all of creation in the fulness of time (consumation of the ages).
All that God has done through the ages and will yet accomplish in the ages to come, all will have demostrated creations inability to live outside of Him and God’s everlasting love and mercy and ultimate restored unity with His fallen creation. Therefore, true life and love can only come through complete subjection to God.
The scriptures that seem to speak of two opposing wills I believe are just misunderstood. To me they seem to convey the truth of God’s soverignty to allow man to stay stuck in his ways or to restrict man from his ways. For all have freely decided to sin and therefore are lost or stuck in sin without any chance of being restored (found) outside of the mercy of God. I believe if one can grasp the concept of universal restortation/reconciliation then many of the apparant contradictions in scripture go away.
These are just my current thoughts on the subject. I have learned to not become too dogmatic on uncertain issues like this one. I’m still searching for more of God’s truth.
Thanks again for the link to such a thought provoking argument.
Jon,
I can agree with you that all in some instances mean just that all. But if it means all, all of the time then explain Phil 4:13?
Brian,
I also do not believe that all means a literal all, all the time in scripture. Versus such as Phil 4:13 by context and with relation to other scriptures on this subject would seem to indicate a limit on the all to only include all things according to His will. Just like when scriptures speak of us being able to ask for anything. It is limited to anything according to His will. This is what unity in Christ brings. It becomes no more our will but His will be done. Therefore, we desire and ask for things according to His will.
I John 5:14-15
“Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us, what ever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.”
Jon,
once again it comes back to yuor stance on universalism being the context from which you are drawing. Whether all is literal ofr figurative all is still all. Which leads back to what lionel said,”you believe in a hyper 3rd point/atonement why beef with election?”
As far as context of the scriputres you quoted up top… the all would be comprised in the us that paul talks about throughout the previous scriptures (Ephesians 1:4-10). Or does us mean everybody? The all is being refernece to “all of us”.
“Blessed bethe God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose US in him before the foundation of the world, that we should beholy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined usforadoption as sons through Jesus Christ,according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed USinthe Beloved. 7In him we have redemptionthrough his blood,the forgiveness of our trespasses,according to the riches of his grace, 8which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. ( Eph 1:4-10)
Lionel
Splendid post ,once again.I think the crucial word is BALANCE,that which enables us not to lose sight of the end of our salvation,while we deploy a variety of means,in everyday life.
On the net,in particular,there is a lot of what I will call Christian extremism,you can indeed find someone more radical than your viewpoint,no matter your stance.We meed to remember the end that God calls us to.On the net in particular,I have seen far too little love among Xtians.
Brian you stated:
“The all is being refernece to “all of us”.”
How do you intreptret “all things” in Heaven and Earth to be limited to only “all of us” in the Body of Christ?
And am I to assume that you also use this same “all of us” intrepretation with the other four scripture references that I pointed out?
I previously stated:
“I also do not believe that all means a literal all, all the time in scripture.”
I want to clarify this statement. What I meant was that I do not believe that “all” means “all encompasing” everytime the word is used in scripture. For I do realize that “all” could refer to all of a particular group based on the context in which it is used.
Jon,
Sir, instead of concentrating on the all and questioning others on that very issue which it seems you won’t ever be satisfied on the answers
What do you do concerning the lost?
We need to be doers of the word and not hearers only. We need to be praying to God for the lost no matter what.
We need to be ready to give an account to Jesus.
Again I am not trying to crawdad out of an argument of who is wrong and who is right. If you are truly a believer than do the great commission.
If I am who I claim to be then I should be doing the great commission.
We (generally speaking) can go on and on and on. Leave that for the Energizer bunny commercials.
I will pray for you and ask that the Lord show you what He wills. Likewise may the Lord continue to show me what He wills.
I mean this in all sincerety.
Steven
Sowen,
Not to be the antagonist here but according to Jon’s view there is really no need for the Great Commission because we ALL will be “reconciled unto God regardless.”
Brian,
You stated:
“according to Jon’s view there is really no need for the Great Commission because we ALL will be “reconciled unto God regardless.””
You obviously misunderstand my view. However, it would seem that I could make a similar statement about what I believe your view is.
You believe that God has already selected only a few to be reconciled to Him. Therefore, what would be the need for the Great Commission because ALL who God has preordained to be saved will be saved regardless.
SOwen,
“Sir, instead of concentrating on the all and questioning others on that very issue which it seems you won’t ever be satisfied on the answers”
Am I to be satisfied simply because you say that I am wrong?
Is my asking for some explaination on apparent contradictions in scripture too much to ask?
Is this topic to taboo to even thoroughly discuss?
And have you provided any helpful commentary on the specific scriptures that I have referenced?
You also stated the following as if you were assuming that I was not already concerned about and doing these things:
“What do you do concerning the lost?
We need to be doers of the word and not hearers only. We need to be praying to God for the lost no matter what.
We need to be ready to give an account to Jesus.
Again I am not trying to crawdad out of an argument of who is wrong and who is right. If you are truly a believer than do the great commission.”
You must not have read some of my previous post on this subject. I will cut and paste (shouts out to Bro. Lawrence D. on the cut and paste approach-Just Kidding) one of my previous responses concerning reaching the lost.
“I and others who hold to this position believe it is of utmost importance to proclaim the gospel (good news). What is the good news? That Jesus is the savior of the world. And that through His sacrifical death on the cross all mankind can now be reconciled to God by grace through faith. We no longer have to remain bound by sin. We can be healed of our spiritual sickness. We can now be made alive to God through Christ. We can now be made joint-heirs with Christ, ruling and reigning with Him. We can now inherit the kingdom of God.”
And Steven,
Thank you for your sincerity in this dialogue.
Let us continue to pray for one another!
Jon, the notion of universal reconciliation is appealing: all people sin, all ultimately receive God’s grace, and God is fully glorified in bringing every soul to cherish and worship Him eternally. Fear of eternal torment, of itself, cannot bring us to God; neither is such fear necessary for us to love the triune God and remain faithful to Him. I am also assuming that you trust what the Bible says about the punishing wrath of God, that there is some form of punishment experienced by the unrepentant which glorifies God’s holiness.
However, universal reconciliation makes biblical judgment language confusing, especially passages pointing to its eternality (Mark 3:28-29, Luke 16:23-31, Matthew 25:41-46, Revelation 20:10-15 come to mind). As a more subtle and intuitive second point, is universal reconciliation really part of the narrative of any biblical book?
I’ll admit, some of the Pauline cosmic reconciliation language is puzzling, but the context never seems to suggest universal pardon. I’ve never done a careful study, though. A quick search at Monergism brings up a link to Doug Moo’s article Paul on Hell, which addresses many of the Pauline texts you quoted earlier with concise scholarship. It appears to be chapter 4 in the book Hell Under Fire. For a broader perspective, Tim Keller’s The Importance of Hell looks worthwhile.
I hope that’s helpful. From what people are saying, though, have there been big threads on the issue of universal atonement here before?
Mr. Paden,
You know there are some mysteries that I don’t understand either. I do believe and follow the scritpures about Jesus saying his sheep know his voice. And that if it were possible that even the elect would be decieved etc. The reformed thoughts. I believe in the true soveriegnty of God. Who knew from the beginning of the earth who He would call. I also know that Paul has warned us not to get into arguements over these and other issues. My concern is as is the case of the title of this blog post that we can continue on and on while never getting to a conclusion that will satisfy anyone.
Now I also know that we are commanded to pray for everyone and go out and proclaim the gospel. I find it an awesome situation that God allows us to do the zealous works. All the while knowing He already has the outcome taken care of. Yet is a wonderful time of ministry to be out and telling people about the Savior.
You know I still have issues about certain things in scripture, but I try not to let that get to me to the point that I neglect so great a salvation. We are to walk out our salvation with fear and trembling. So God has put things in our paths so that we will continue to seek him.
Read Acts 17:26-27 You will see it is God who has even predetermined where we live. Why? So that we will seek Him! So there are alot of mysteries and concieved contradictions in the scriptures, but the end of it all is that we are to continue to seek God and praise Him. So whether it is “all” or some the end of it all is that we need to be seeking God. With all due respect it is not a Calvinistic thing nor an Armenian thing. No it is as Paul said, I came to you knowing nothing except Christ and Him crucified. So that is what we should be focusing on all the time.
Again, with no disrepect for you. I will continue to pray for you.
Steven
Mike,
You stated:
“However, universal reconciliation makes biblical judgment language confusing, especially passages pointing to its eternality (Mark 3:28-29, Luke 16:23-31, Matthew 25:41-46, Revelation 20:10-15 come to mind). As a more subtle and intuitive second point, is universal reconciliation really part of the narrative of any biblical book?”
The judgment language sounds confusing if you are reading from an errant translation. A thorough word study on key judgment terms (hades, sheol, eternal, forever, everlasting, destruction, etc.) would be of great benefit to you. I believe I have adequately addressed these apparent contradictions in previous post.
The reconciliation/restoration of all things seems to be the main thought behind the entire bible, considering the fact that the Old and New Testaments speak of God’s plan of redemption through Christ.
And yes, we have had some drawn out discussions on this topic in the past. Here is a link to one of those lengthy post:
http://blackandreformedministries.com/2008/08/17/a-redfinition-of-gods-love-the-grace-extreme/#comments
Mike,
I forgot to include this with my last post in regards to the hell article references you provided. This “hell test” is quite thought provoking and will probably push you even more to restudy this subject. It addresses some major problems with the doctrine of hell. Here is the link:
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hell_test.html
Jon,
Thank you for the links. There is a lot to digest there that I’m only skimming over (for now) — I’ll try to digest them further in the future. I apologize for just throwing out links to Piper, Moo, and Keller when they seem to be talking past you. On a more fundamental level, you’re convinced they, with their teachers before them, misconstrue key Greek terms and the narrative arc of the Bible. Not yet grasping the intricate details of what you believe and why, I haven’t much else to say.
I’m not persuaded, though, that universalism is necessary to vindicate the goodness of God, nor that it’s biblically grounded. I actually think it’s just more important to take hell (or some lesser judgment, if you will) seriously in our hearts and words, as Lionel exhorted in the August 17 post you linked.
Mike,
Thanks for your response. It seems that you are at least willing to do a further study on this subject. If we still disagree after your own diligent search into this matter and possibly upon further dialogue, then let us agree to disagree and continue in love and in peace through Christ.
Jon
finally!!!
i so enjoy reading all of your writing as well as the brothers comments. i understand the point of getting into the substance of the Word. i understand the differences in doctrine that are shared.
so many times i wanted to jump in and give my educated opinion, or just my interpretation of whatever scripture or truth you folks were discussing. I constantly held back. bit my tongue. at times just shook my head.
But today I stand in my chair and shout a loud and glorious …
“AMEN”.
Love. its that simple.
Merry Christmas and Abundant Blessings
Frankie G
(spankie)
A Biker for Christ
Thanks for the kind words Frankie G! By the way please give your “educated” opinion, whenever you fell like it. We actually enjoy those comments.