My last post sparked a discussion that I didn’t want to get lost so I am reposting one the subpoints as a main point here.
It seems that many believe that I think Theology=Maturity! That would be untrue Theology Applied=Maturity. Rather we like it or not we all have a theology and certain theological positions. It seems smart today to avoid calling it something, the problem is you can’t. For example. If you take metal, rubber, glass and plastic, put it together, put fuel in it and use it to get from point A to point B then you have a car or some type of motor vehicle. You can say “I don’t want to call it that” but that would be irrelevant! Such is the same for theology. You don’t have to call it that, but the fact that you believe something about God, something about the bible, something about how the church should meet, something about Christ, something about salvation and something about what Christians should obey and what they don’t have to obey means you have taken certain theological stances and positions.
Now if it is you want to avoid labels then fine! I have no problem with that, but just because you want to avoid them doesn’t mean that someone has not defined what you believe and has written it in a book, and it is taught maybe even in seminary. If you believe like I believe that after 2000 years nobody has figured it out, then I promise you some smart dude has written what you believe.
But lets take it a bit further! What you believe has been taught to you and what you hold to has been shaped by some theologian over the past 2000 years. I bet my yearly salary to a Peanut Butter with no jelly sandwich and a stick of celery to that statement! What you believe didn’t fall out of the sky, you were shaped. Listen to me very carefully. The Ephesians, Corinthians, Galatians, Colossians, Philippians, Macedonians, the Jews, Laodacians, Thessalonians, The Bereans, and any other person who became a Christian in the 1st Century was shaped by Pauline Theology! Now you might say that is Holy Spirit theology, but it is still Pauline Theology! The thing they have that you and I don’t is access to Paul, Timothy, Titus, Epaphorditus, John, Peter, Apollos and others who can directly ask a question and get a straight answer, even if they could answer the question!
Theology was before Seminary! Let me say that again Theology was before Seminary. Now theological language can be avoided, but we as humans always use language to discuss concepts. For example I am in Coporate America as a Financial Analyst. There are terms we use to describe what we do! When my wife asks me certain things, I have to show her more than I can tell her because the terms will leave her void of what I am trying to explain. The same goes for musicians when they talk music, writers when they discuss writing, artist when they discuss art……. You see terms like the Trinity are theological term, The Fall is a theological term, The Divinity of Christ is a theological term, and many other words we use are theological terms and concepts that are deduced and put into books to discuss them.
Now for this one I will get shot but I am going to say it anyway! Is the bible all we need? My answer is no! Absolutely not! Heck no! When I look at the Gifts given by the Spirit one of those gifts is teaching! Just because someone decides to write it in a book doesn’t negate the gift! Actually the printing press has become a blessing! We now can print 1,000,000 bibles in different languages in a a fraction of the time it would take to hand-write 10! But not only that things that was passed orally or taught can now be written and reproduced! In my experience my vast amount of theology has helped me once the Spirit caught up with my learning! So the problem wasn’t theology the problem was my ability or even desire to apply it!
Are there drawbacks to theology? I think I have written extensively about this. Theology can make one proud, arrogant, self-righteous, it can produce unbiblical distinctions as Daniel brings up, it can even produce a Christian caste system. But theology isn’t the problem, application is. Pursuing a theological education isn’t bad in and of itself. Understanding the work of the Holy Spirit systematically, that Jesus is the metanarrative or the interpretive key of the whole bible (a Christ centered interpretation) or learning the difference between how to apply the law in the Old Testament versus the New Testament are not bad things!
Using are minds and hearts simultaneously is not a bad thing. Back in the day I took an Intro to Theology class under Michael Patton, one of the books I had to read was J.P Morelands “Love God With All of Your Mind”. Listen the Holy Spirit isn’t quenched by theology. My move towards my current ecclesiological perspective and theology of the New Testament was assisted by wrestling with theological concepts and terms. Again the Spirit is quenched by not obeying and applying what you do know. The Spirit not only works in the heart He works in the mind also. The book of Romans is a theological work of Paul. It would have taken some thinking to wrestle with and it was written by the Holy Spirit! Does it mean that the uneducated couldn’t understand the Gospel? No! It does mean; however, that someone with some form of eduction would have to read it and explain it to them though.
I end with this. A little theology ain’t going to hurt nobody! The Spirit works in the mind and in the heart! But most importantly if you believe you are void of theology you are only fooling yourself. Your theological position was shaped by someone rather that is Viola and Barna or Owen and Edwards! Both sets have theological knowledge and extensive theology as a matter of fact! Most of what we believe has been shaped by 2000 years of theology from the Deity of Christ to the Trinity to baptism we have to affirm that.
Lionel,
I must say that I was concerned about your other post also.
I’m glad you clarified it. Although I want to ask a question about having only the Bible and it being enough concerning other countries.
There are some foriegn countries where all the people have is the Bible and they seem to be going better than us.
In China and other places sometimes all they have is one scripture. Anyway just a thought.
Oh and one correction. On this post when you mentioning John Owen, you said Owens. As I may be one of his distant relatives I just want to make sure the family name stays the same. LOL!!!! just joking.
Steven Owen..s
1. Many times we romanticize what is going on in other countries. I have friends who go to places in Africa and a few have been to China. Their limited understanding of the bible shows in their practice. Yes many are willing to be persecuted but many of them need basic bible training my friend. The American Church isn’t as bad as people make it out to be.
2. Many of the foreign countries long for good bible teachers to go over there and train them. Ministries like Heart Cry and the BTCP are doing a mighty work. A lot of men are now getting online courses and small schools of theology are being built in some areas that have no training. Check out Dr. Blacks site and the work he is doing in Ethiopia.
3. Yeah I don’t spell check much! LOL
Dude…
“…my vast amount of theology has helped me once the Spirit caught up with my learning! ” (?)
I had no idea that the Spirit could get bogged down trying to catch up with our intellects…
Truth is truth. Whether it’s in the simplest of terms, or dressed up in language that refuses to use than than three syllables per word…
I think the point was the you WERE coming across like you equated maturity with theological astuteness (as indicated when in your last post you suggested that in order to “rightly handle” their bibles, people (I think you said men, but we’ll leave that alone for now…) need to be able to go beyond using concordances, and be able to get into systematic theology, etc.
Just because imbibing those vast amounts of academically-tuned material has been beneficial to you, does not mean that it is just as helpful for other people to learn. What difference does it make if I were to say, “Jesus is the metanarrative of Scripture”, or,”Jesus is what the whole Bible is about…” What I want to know is, can you teach others about propitiation, without using the word? Can you teach about atonement, using simple, everyday language? If so, then awesome, there’s nothing bad about knowing all the theological terminology.
The danger simply comes when you start thinking that there is something intrinsically better, or more helpful, in using such an approach to truth. Theological terms are great if they make sense to people, but they can just as easily be a stumbling block, a fact that can be hard to swallow for someone who has invested huge portions of time and energy into learning them all. And I don’t think it’s only a question of “theological application”, meaning that no amount of high-brow rhetoric could every hinder the gospel, only if someone goes out and acts in a way contrary to their own theology… Wrong….
Remember, those who you and I agree are unwittingly reinforcing the clergy/laity dichotomy within their congregations are not doing so INTENTIONALLY, in fact, their motives are for the most part quite the opposite. Nevertheless, they are partaking in the creation of the divide, because they mistakenly believe that such official positions of leadership are helpful and even necessary. No, motives do not create a safequard against adverse consequences within the Church…
Bro. Lionel,
I must say that I was also bothered or troubled by the statement, “once the Spirit caught up with my learning”. Whoa! Now, maybe you meant something else but this is a scary statement and is probably the kind of thinking that Daniel is actually arguing against.
But Bro. Daniel,
I do believe that teaching the original sense meaning of terms such as propitiation, atonement and the like are necessary. No one can take an honest look at the original meaning of the Greek word translated propitiation and actually believe that Christ’ blood was shed FOR every man, woman, boy and girl ever born WITHOUT coming to the conclusion of universalism. So I wouldn’t discount those terms.
BLD,
What is so troubling by that statement? I was learning a bunch of stuff and was simultaneously quenching the Spirit. I had a bunch of information but no power to apply it! Do you not believe that there are things you had learned that later on the Spirit came and applied to your heart? I don’t understand the hang up with that but maybe its just me.
Daniel,
The Spirit can be bogged down by lots of things! That is why Paul says “don’t quench Him”!
Lionel, wouldn’t being willing to be persecuted be enough to show the persecutor where a persons faith is? I don’t know to many in America willing to risk their lives for the gospel. Just having a bible in some countries is risk for death.
And again I reiterate that a lot of the people in the foriegn countries who just have the Bible know more about it than we do. Why? Because they are truly living it out in their daily lives. They don’t have the freedoms we do nor the medical technology.
So how much theology training would they need to see that Jesus healed people? Or how much theology would they need to understand that God is our creator. I am finding that scripture answers itself a lot more times than we give credit. We in America have become so intellectual in our thinking that we feel there needs to be more.
I am not advocating do away with theological teaching, I am just saying that it is not always necessary.
We have to be careful in our thinking or we can fall into the same situation many of those Jesus rebuked. When He said, you search the scriptures looking for the messiah when He is right here.
Steven
Daniel,
Are you saying the Holy Spirit didn’t know what He was doing when He used the word “propitiation” what about “atonement”? Do you not believe you should teach up at times? Where does the bible say “keep base level so we don’t offend anyone”. Paul consistely uses words but goes back and explains them, why shouldn’t we? Is Justification a Holy Spirit word or a man made one? I am very confused by what you are trying to convey!
Atonement is simple everyday language! Its the word the Trinity decided to use!
Next tell me this if someone came to you and asked “why is baptism important”? What will be your answer? Will it be “because Jesus said so, thats why”? Or will you go into a systematic approach of explaining baptism? When asked “was Jesus created” what will be your answer? Will it be “no, just study your bible and the Spirit will show you” or will you give them both a biblical and systematic treastie on where Jesus was in the Old Testament starting at Genesis 1?
It seems to me that you are caught up in language. When talking about pastors you are using some form of ecclesiology that others disagree with. You will have to defend such a stance either systematically or you won’t defend it at all.
Again I will say you have a theology and you have a theology that is different from others and you didn’t learn it on your own! It seems that most of you are arguing from the back end. Again it is like the dude who ran the marathon then goes to dinner and says “it was nothing”.
Sowen,
1. We don’t know who will risk what because the threat doesn’t exist? You may be more suprised than you think! The problem is it seems that you are equating Christians and Church with American Religionism which I am not. I believe there are many today who don’t believe the Gospel and have not been regenerated but love churchiness. But when I use the word Church and Christian I use them in the regenerated sense.
2. SO. I am going to have to get you with it is not always neccessary. What do you believe about the bible? What do you believe about the Gifts of the Spirit? What do you believe about Creation? What do you believe about the Old Covenant versus the New Covenant? What do you believe about the Doctrines of Grace? What do you believe about Faith and works and their relation to salvation?
3. Okay I want to give you a case study. I want you to give the people you minister to a bible and leave them with it. No other aids. Just a bible and you can’t teach them (you say what you want but you have been influenced by some theological camp) Come back in two years and see what happens.
Lionel,
I’m assuming that by “theology” you mean “theological education”. If so, as you say, education can be a good thing. However, it is also possible, and probable unfortunately, that we begin to lean on our own understanding (knowledge, education about God) more than we trust God himself. I see it happen everyday.
-Alan
Alan,
I also agree there. What I am saying is that we ALL have a theological education. Some formal some informal but we all have. Rather that is sitting in a pew being preached to, or a small group bible study, we have all learned at the feet of others. And those people had theological positions that either right, wrong or maybe neutral. A theological education is like blinking. We don’t notice we have it. Again rather that is reading Viola or Piper, Sproul or Bell, McClaren or Dever we have all been eductated by someone theologically. To escape it means you were on an island a bible dropped out of an airplane in your language and you began reading it came back to a populate area and began teaching. A theological education isn’t important it is inescapeable, just how and what language people use is the difference.
Lionel, after reading my comment about it isn’t always necessary I want to say it this way. How many people who read and study their bibles know that what they are getting is theology? Does that make better since? I was raised in the Catholic Church and wasn’t ever told to open a bible. As I got older I felt the Holy Spirit putting it on my heart to start reading the scriptures. As I did I didn’t know I was learning theology. I just knew what I was reading wasn’t what the “church” was practicing.
So looking at it that way yes I was learning theology without knowing the definition. It wasn’t until years later that I heard that word. I feel we take for granted that people already know certain terms.
I never said I wasn’t influenced by some theological camp. I just had not heard that word used until sometime later.
Now if I were to give someone a bible and let them go, as long as they read it and the LORD opens their eyes, HIS Holy Spirit will do the rest. are they learning theology? I guess so, but again we don’t have to put a definition on it.
I also know that a lot can come out of the mouth of babes. So we need to look at it from both angles of how God deals with each of us a measure of faith. What we in America try to do is add our way of ministry to others in the world and it doesn’t work. So our “theology” can be off in one area and bring error in our effort to teach. That may be the religionism part.
As far as what I believe in yes to all of the above you wrote and I am definately a New Covenant person. Again I know that is theology, but do others always know that?
I am not trying to contridict all you are saying. I feel maybe what I am trying to point out is the word itself. As stated above not everyone knows the definitions. They just know they believe what they read in the scriptures and follow that.
So Steven,
You were not shaped by any outside sources other than the bible? And you really believe that someone can learn without being taugh, all they need is a bible and quiet place to read it and they will do just fine? Just teach them Jesus saved you then hand them a bible and let them have at it?
Lionel,
The problem with today’s “theological education”, whether formal or informal, is that people usually think it is something to know or something to accept or something to agree to. In reality, our understanding of God (theology) and our doctrine (teachings) are not simply exercises of the mind according to Scripture. Instead, they should be lived out. It does not matter what you believe – or what you SAY you believe – if you do not live it out.
-Alan
Alan,
I acutally disagree that somethings are not just cognitive! For example Paul explains Justification in Romans 3-5. Is this cognitive or something they are to do? In Epehsians 1-4.5 Paul again doesn’t tell them to do anything but what they should believe. He later goes on to tell them what they should do now that they know who they are. If we don’t understand that Jesus paid it all then we will fall into the danger of the Galatian problem. Paul spends a great deal of time telling them what they ought to believe and then later explains to them “don’t use your freedom”. So I believe the Gospel if fully cognitive and then how we live lets us know if we really believe. Or am I misunderstanding you?
Lionel, Did you not read what I wrote?
I stated that when I was reading my bible I didn’t know I was learning theology.
I would like to quote something from a book called “Like a Mighty Wind” it is about missionaries from Indonesia in the 60’s.
“In 1962, before the revival, the laymen in the church never preached the Gospel. And the pastors were so busy running the church that we never even thought of taking the Gospel to the pagans.
There was a pagan village called Tubunaus about three miles from Soe. One day a pagan priest called Sem Faet, who also had leprosy, was giving a sacrifice to his “blood god.” Jesus came and revealed Himself to this pagan priest.
“I am the God you are seeking,” He said,. “This is not the way to worship Me.”
“Lord who are you and how do you want to be worshipped?” the priest asked.
“I will tell you about name and how you are to worship Me later,” Jesus said. ” First you must gather all your images and witchcraft materials and burn them. When you do this, I will visit you again and tell you all about myself.” Then the Lord disappeared.
The preist told his people that God had appeared to him and that they were to burn all the idols and witchcraft materials.
I will skip to this next part….The Lord came to him again and said, “My name is Jesus.” Jesus explained to Him the passages of the Bible concerning salvation and the Christian walk. The man also was healed from his sickness.
The priest could not read or write, and the Lord told him to go to Soe. When you get there buy a pencil and a pad of paper, Jesus told him. He obeyed the Lord.
When he returned to the village, God took his hand and wrote Bible verses in his book. He did not use normal Timor writing but a type of hieroglyphics. The Lord gave him many stories found throughout the whole bible.
He then shared it with the other people in the tribe.
The gentleman who wrote the book stated …The Lord just continued to teach them. When we went to bring the gospel to them, we found a wonderful fellowship of Christians walking a holy life with Christ.”
So Lionel if the accounts of this book I have are correct then yes someone can learn without being taught by another man. The Holy Spirit teaches us. Who taught the early theologians? Who taught Moses? Who taught Abraham? You see where I am going with this brother?
God can do all things whether through man or His Holy Spirit.
Granted what I quoted out of the book is not the norm, but I am reading a lot from VOM and other missionary books about how God is revealing Himself to people everyday and teaching them.
The author of the book is Mel Tari as told to Cliff Dudley.
If this account is true then I would have to say God does as He wills. He doesn’t need human wisdom.
Okay, I’m think I’m finally zeroing in a central point that is worth trying to spit out here…
In the end, this isn’t really about which words are good to use, but about whether we regard the understanding of the Truth (notice the capital T…) as something that happens only in a progressive, step-by-step way, (which is what I am currently taking ’systematic theology’ to mean) or if it isn’t constrained to such a mechanical process. Obviously, I feel convicted that the latter is the case. Because, we are not learning about an ‘it’, but a Who!
We do not learn the Truths about God is the same way we piece together an understanding of something like math. Yes, we can talk and learn about God in abstract ways, using words to help us grasp abstract ideas. But, God is not simply a set of abstract beliefs, (or doctrines…) like mathematics, but a person. And since we are persons as well, there is a relational dynamic to how we “learn” God. There is in reality, no ’stepA-stepB-stepC’ formula for learning Truth. It depends on where we are coming from, and from where God is coming from, and no two situations are exactly the same. Everyone’s testimony is different. Everyone’s mind is different. Everyone’s heart is different. God is always the same, but he doesn’t funnel us into some intellectually-supported, systematic way of learning about himself that follows a set order. You asked how I would teach someone about something like baptism, well, my answer would have to depend on who the person is, what they already understand, and most importantly, what their heart condition is. Because all the theological arguments and proof texts in the world will be a waste of time if someone has hardened their heart towards God…
You also asked how I would respond to someone asking if Jesus was created. Would I just hand them a bible and say go for it? Maybe… Would that be a bad place to point someone? Or would they be in better hands if I chose to instead take it upon myself to explain it all in full detail right then and there? The freedom comes in that I wouldn’t feel compelled to bring someone to a certain place of understanding in that particular moment, but can allow God to work, and bring someone there in HIS time. I think it would actually be more of a situation of asking questions, rather than breaking down all the answers. Isn’t that wanting planting seeds, or watering them, is all about? Ultimately, it is God who makes all things grow, not us…
Wow Steve, that is an amazing story!! Have you ever read Eternity in Their Hearts? Trying to remember the author… similar stuff… anyways, we too are reading about how Jesus is revealing Himself to people, even TODAY, to people through dreams, and miracles, and other such ways, that completely circumvents any written word coming to them, or even a missionary. Truly fascinating…
SO,
Let me ask you a few more questions.
1. Are Moses, Abraham and Paul extremes or norms? If you were in the Army and a tank came at you would you pick up 5 smooth stones hoping to hit the tank commander in the head and winning the war for America?
2. You are right your examples are not the norm. It is funny that Paul spends a great deal of the time “teaching” versus giving them the Old Testament to figure things outs.
3. So let me ask again. What you know today about ecclesiology, doctine and the like, were they secondary sources or did you learn them in a vaccum with just you and your bible?
Daniel,
Let me ask you some questions.
1. How did you learn what you now know? Was it simply you and your bible with no secondary sources?
2. Why were the epistles written? Couldn’t they figure it out on their own?
3. Next why does the Holy Spirit give us teachers? What do they teach?
4. Next no one is talking about someone with a hard heart. How did that even come up, we are talking about genuine believers so lets throw that one out of the discussion please.
5. Finally I have to ask this seriously, when you children come to you with questions will you send them back to their rooms with a bible? I really hope not brother. Starting from Exodus forward God commanded people to teach! Paul commands Timothy 10 times to teach the Ephesians! Why? Can’t they figure it out on their own.
6. Finally to your last statment that wowed you so much! Why does Paul say in Romans 10:
14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!”
I have to ask one last question. Why couldn’t all of the Churches Paul planted figure it out on their own?
Lionel,
To be honest about the whole ecclesiology etc. I again didn’t know that I was learning is what those words define.
I am not a seminary student. The word ecclesiology was not apart of my vocabulary. How many people need to know the certain terms as such to understand the Bible?
I didn’t know that praying the rosary was wrong until I read my Bible. No one taught me that. I didn’t know that praying to dead saints was wrong until I realized it wasn’t in my Bible. No one taught me those. Look where some of our theology has gotten us. We are now relearning that NT tithing is not scriptural, and the way we do church is not completely biblical. Now that is ecclesiology I know now, but again when the Lord put the scriptures on my heart to read concerning that I wasn’t taught by man.
As far as a tank coming at me if I’m good at using a sling and God was with me as He was with David anything is possible. On my own I would run. LOL!!!
Concerning Paul, as we read the accounts of his epistles we tend to forget that the New Testament was being lived out and not written all the way. As it is now. So when Paul was teaching he was having to give them what they didn’t have yet.
Where I am going is that yes a person who has a bible can learn from it without proper instruction from someone who knows it.
Again look how far we as modern church have strayed from the New Testament because we were taught by men who “knew theology and eccesiology” or so they thought. There are two sides to this. What brought you to the point of questioning how we do ecclesiology? And if it was Viola, Mr. Knox or others guess what somewhere the Holy Spirit had some influence.
Lionel,
You said, “He later goes on to tell them what they should do now that they know who they are.” Exactly. The way we live our lives should be different because of what we believe about God, the world, salvation, etc. So, even Romans 3-5 and Ephesians 1 are highly practical. Romans 12 and Ephesians 4 demonstrate that the way we live should be changed according to what we believe. Scripture does not give us only cognitive beliefs.
-Alan
Steven,
Where are you learning about tithing from? Did you come to that conclusion on your own? What about your pespective on how the church should meet. Did you just figure that out on your own? Were there no secondary sources? You have to be clear with me. The things you are wrestling with did you get them from the Spirit directly or did the Spirit bring someone into your life to help you see error. I agree that some things come on your own through the Spirit.
For example I was an Apostolic Seventh Day Adventist, but reading the scriptures showed me that speaking in tongues is no more the evidence of the Spirit than living a sacrificial and loving life. I also learned that I didn’t have to obey the sabbath by reading the New Testament, so some things came directly from the Spirit, but again that is a minority the majority has come through people directly or indirectly who taught me how to even read my bible, which in the end caused me to disagree with them LOL!
Alan,
Last question because I know you are a busy man.
1. Can what we believe about God have a negative effect on the way we live? Which drives which? Does proper living drive a proper belief or proper belief drive proper living? If a man thinks he save by works how will that effect his relationship with God and others. If a man believes because of sin he can lose his salvation won’t that produce a perservation Christianity living to stay saved? There are a bunch of other examples.
Daniel, no I haven’t read Eternity in Their Hearts. But I just wrote the title down and will research it.
Steven
Hey Steven,
Why read won’t the Spirit just show you
Lionel,
What a man thinks about how he is saved does not affect his salvation at all – unless salvation is not by grace. The problem is when people say they believe in salvation by grace, but then live otherwise.
-Alan
Alan,
I was asking about the way he lives out his salvation?
Lionel,
The fact that you’ve interpreted everything I’ve said thus far to mean that I don’t believe in teaching (which is completely untrue…) only seems to re-emphasize my point.
Somehow, you have come to the place where you see teaching and ’systematic theology’ as being one and the same thing. They are not.
Even when human beings are being used to teach Eternal truth to other human beings, ultimately it is God who is the source of all truth. We are never more than vessels. So yes, we absolutely would teach our children, or anyone else, although it really God in the end who is teaching anyone anything. (This would relate not only to your questions towards me, but also Steve and Alan…)
God is not constrained to using human beings to spread the Gospel, rather, in His infinite wisdom, has for some reason chosen to include us in the ushering in of the Kingdom around the world. It is a privelage to be sure, but in no way is God limited by how many human messengers He has at His disposal at a given time. Steve already mentioned Moses, Abraham, etc., so it’s hard to see why there would be a need for more examples of God intervening in the lives of people in a direct way….
Lastly, I’m sorry, but you simply cannot throw out the matter of the condition of the heart when considering how people come to the truth. It is inescapable. We are not machines that systematically crunch data. Everything is filtered through the heart. The head is not automous. Your cognitive capabilites will serve whatever master your heart has already bowed to, not the other way around….
Lionel,
I just realized that I didn’t answer your questions, which I now see that you pointed out. Sorry.
Our beliefs (what we truly believe) are demonstrated in the way we live our lives. Its not a question of which one drives the other. They go together.
This gets us back to where we started. Often what we SAY we believe (our “theology” or “doctrine”) is not what we truly believe. And, this is apparent from the way we live our lives.
-Alan
Lionel,
The tithing issue was a heart thing from God as well as the whole church dichotomy issues. Believe me I have a long letter from my old pastor stating their stance on the church meeting issues. So it wasn’t from them. LOL!!
I was one of the biggest proponents of tithing. Using all the usual Malachi and other scriptures. Until this past spring when I was sitting while the pastor preached and felt a release that I didn’t have to tithe the way I was “taught”. This was something I had been wrestling with from out of nowhere. No one put it on my heart except the Holy Spirit.
The whole church meeting issue was something I wrestled with for about 6 months before I ever heard of Pagan Christianity or any other books or terms.
I say that because it was just like things were coming to me like were did the word lay person come from etc. Just as when I was Catholic I started questioning infant baptism and asked the preist. He couldn’t or wouldn’t answer me. So it was things like that which caused me to search the scripture and realize we weren’t operating correctly. It was months later after I questioned why we have worship leaders, youth pastors, assistants and lay people that I walked into the local Christian book store and found the bright red book sitting along with the MacArthur and Piper books. I then asked the manager about the book Pagan Christianity and he said it had just came in with the other orders. So I picked it up and the first pages that I turned to was on worship leaders.
I then bought the book and devoured it. I later calle Phillip and told him about what I was reading. He started laughing and said he was reading Eccesliogy by: Steve Atkerson. So there you go I must say it was the Holy Spirit.
Then later I read the books.
Sorry for the novel , but you asked.
Lionel,
The issues were a heart thing from God as well as the whole church dichotomy issues. Believe me I have a long letter from my old pastor stating their stance on the church meeting issues. So it wasn’t from them. LOL!!
I was one of the biggest proponents of tithing. Using all the usual Malachi and other scriptures. Until this past spring when I was sitting while the pastor preached and felt a release that I didn’t have to tithe the way I was “taught”. This was something I had been wrestling with from out of nowhere. No one put it on my heart except the Holy Spirit.
The whole church meeting issue was something I wrestled with for about 6 months before I ever heard of Pagan Christianity or any other books or terms.
I say that because it was just like things were coming to me like were did the word lay person come from etc. Just as when I was Catholic I started questioning infant baptism and asked the preist. He couldn’t or wouldn’t answer me. So it was things like that which caused me to search the scripture and realize we weren’t operating correctly. It was months later after I questioned why we have worship leaders, youth pastors, assistants and lay people that I walked into the local Christian book store and found the bright red book sitting along with the MacArthur and Piper books. I then asked the manager about the book Pagan Christianity and he said it had just came in with the other orders. So I picked it up and the first pages that I turned to was on worship leaders.
I then bought the book and devoured it. I later calle Phillip and told him about what I was reading. He started laughing and said he was reading Eccesliogy by: Steve Atkerson. So there you go I must say it was the Holy Spirit.
Then later I read the books.
Sorry for the novel , but you asked.
Daniel,
Can I ask you a question?
Where in all of my writings especially this one have I made Sytematic Theology an issue? Can you show me that please? Where in the world did I equate teaching and systematic theology? Systematic Theology is one of 100’s of theological subjects the others are but not limited to: Homeletics, Hermeneutics, Languages, Church History, Pastoral Leadership, Textual Criticsim, Worship,….. I will digress. Where are you getting that from? I mentioned ST once or twice and you have used that for the entire discussion!
I never said it wasn’t God as a matter of fact that has been my entire point! A book was written by a person who was indwelt by the Spirit thus the source of the truth is the Spirit not the book and not the person, but you seem to cancel out the Spirit because He communicates through a book. So if you teach them or you use a book to assit you in teaching them is irrelevant. You still were taught by a secondary source and hopefully you are teaching them theology proper! That is who God is, what God has done, and what God requires. That is systematic bro. Call it whatever you like.
I never said God was limited. I am saying God has used men in 99.9% of all conversions! If you look at every church ever established in the bible they were all established my men! If you look through the whole bible you can count on 1.5 hands how many people came to know God apart from someone sharing Him! Jesus commands to the Discples were to GO! God has decided to use human agents as His PRIMARY source of communicating the Gospel and to teach new converts what Christianity is about!
Finally the discussion was not about nonbelievers it has always been about believers. I don’t care how much theology you pump into a dead man he is still dead, unless he is born again the information you give him is worthless.
Lionel,
Sorry about the duplicate. But when I was sending the comment I was getting an error message. So I changed some of the text in hopes to getting it posted. Not realizing that it had gone through already.
Steven
Alan,
That is the egg/chicken arguement and I ain’t buying it
One proceeds the other. It is like salvation. One produces the other. But that is a different arugement. As for this however I didn’t know how to live for Jesus until I understood fully that salvation was by grace. Before that Alan, I lived to please Jesus and when I sinned for long periods of time I would go get rebaptized and become saved again. See where I am going. For example the Church of Christ believes that you aren’t saved until you are baptized …..
Lionel,
The Spirit precedes both… the Spirit produces both understanding and a changed life. They are both products, but neither one produces the other.
-alan
Lionel,
Which post are you on. I noticed a question Steve, why buy a book at all. From your other topic. Man you are double blogging at the same time. Now that is not something taught by human hands. LOL!!!!
If you are stating why buy the books, again I then felt prompted by the Lord to read them.
I am not against the reading of other books. I have been saying that if all we had was the Bible that would be suffiecient. The books gave me insight to the terms eccesiology etc. . For someone who won’t ever want to learn that or ever know those words exist then why not just the Bible?
Lionel, just a quick quirky question.
Did you crawl when you were a baby?
If so did you have to be taught the proper moves in before you started crawling? You see some things can be learned without being taught.
Steven
I wasn’t taught how to crawl but let me ask you.
1. I want you to give your children a math and literature book at age 6 months and put them in a room.
2. As a matter of fact I want you to have a child then bring them home from the hospital then give them a to do list and go to work, day after day until they are 10. You think they will survive past 3 days?
SOwen,
I was born with bilateral club feet. I had to wear a body cast from the chest down. So instead of crawling, my mom says that I would just roll to wherever I wanted to go. Where I couldn’t roll to, they would carry me. When it was the normal time for a baby to start walking , she says I started out like other babies holding myself up on the couch or coffee table. One day I released and though I had the cast on (now just above the thighs down) I would pivot, instead of putting one foot in front of the other, on account I couldn’t bend my knees. And no one taught me a thing. None of the usual “Come on baby! You can do it!” Why? Because me parents didn’t believe that I COULD walk. My parents were told by the doctors that I would never walk, talk or be “normal” like the other kids. Well the doctors got at least one thing right!
What’s my point? With just a bible, an individual indwelt by the Holy Spirit CAN, and they sometimes DO, come to know vast amounts of truth. They can even accomplish great things for the Kingdom of Christ with just a bible. But….it is so much easier if they have the Body of Christ and nuggets of knowledge mined by others to help them along the way.
It is sometimes much better when we can learn to “crawl” and “walk” in Christ without the body cast of doing it alone.
Lionel,
I am trying to point out that as someone who may have just been given a bible they can be taught by the Lord. They may not know all the terminology, but they can learn the basics.
And no my children could not do math at 6 months old, but they didn’t need anyone to teach them to cry either. You see some things can be done without being taught.
Even if the person who has the Bible can’t read a word of it, the Lord can still teach them. Again I am coming from the standpoint that you can know the basics without going into all of the doctrines or theology.
Thank you Bro. Lawrence,
I am awed by your testimony. And feel that you explained what I am trying to get across with my question.
We end up putting God in a box as if He can’t do things because it goes against what we were taught.
You hit the nail on the head.
I agree it would be so easier if they had the body. I am not promoting not assembling etc.. I just am trying to point out that we can learn without a person being beside us. Again Lionel as you said earlier it is not the norm, but it can and does happen.
Hey brother, I have to go for now my children just got home. So I must be signing off for now.
Thanks for the dialogue brothers. I’ll be back tomorrow Lord willing.
Lionel, sorry that I mistunderstood ’systematic theology’ to be term that represents the broader scope of theology that is bathed in scholarly lingo. I guess that just highlights my own theological ignorance. I won’t lie to you, it feels pretty crappy when someone rattles off a list of terms that you don’t know. It makes you feel dumb. It alienates people, and that has been the only real point I’ve been trying to make. I already know of one person who is reluctant to leave comments in this arena, due to the intellectually intimidating atmosphere, and the underlying male-dominated tone. The sad thing is that this person is the wisest follower of Christ I have ever met, and God has used this person to open my eyes to more Truth than all the books I read on junk like ecclesiology, epistomology, apologetics, hermeneutics and all the rest combined. How many other people amongst the spectrum of the Body are being overlooked, and pushed to the background in all of our respective church gatherings, because they do not, and never will, expound their understanding of the Saviour in the right technical terminology. How much are we missing out on because we dismiss the riches of God’s wisdom that do reach our ears in the way that appeals to our ‘theologically-trained’ minds….
I think now I understand why this is such a vibrant issue for me, because it goes right back to my own testimony…. I grew up knowing all the “proper” doctrines (according to the experts I was under…), speaking the right words, and yet was completely dead inside. Once I tasted the very life that I had spent so much time talking about, dissecting, and trying to sound knowledgeable about, there was no going back….
If I have to choose between a head-full of theological knowledge with no relationship, and a life in Christ with a labotomy, then I’ll take the labotomy!
P.S. I meant, “the riches of God’s wisdom that does NOT reach our ears…”
Oh, and I guess I latched onto systematic theology because it was one the things you mentioned in your previous post about what we should see in someone who is maturing in their faith, and learning to handle the Word properly….
Daniel,
I would propose that you summed up the arguement for me when you made you statement:
“I think now I understand why this is such a vibrant issue for me, because it goes right back to my own testimony…. I grew up knowing all the “proper” doctrines (according to the experts I was under…), speaking the right words, and yet was completely dead inside. Once I tasted the very life that I had spent so much time talking about, dissecting, and trying to sound knowledgeable about, there was no going back….”
I would propose that Lionel is stating this same fact. (Lionel correct me if i am wrong)That our behaviors are effected by that which we are taught through theology first. Yes we are saved by grace through faith by our behavior is a direct reflection of our theology. Improper theology will lead to improper behavior. If my theology is infleunced by creflo Dollar than my actions will reflect that teaching though I have saved. Now the Spirit can and will illuminate truth to me but can their be an illumination without their first being something to illuminate?
The Spirit can illuminate truth, whether it is found in the written pages of scripture, in the good or bad experiences of our lives, through the words of a friend, or if it somehow just is impressed upon our innermost thoughts, without any real understanding of why….
The Spirit can illiminate truth, even if it comes in the form of God’s own voice, speaking something to us like, “Choose ye this day…”
If (one’s) theology is not subservient to the Spirit, inevitably it will quench the Spirit of grace. The theology that does not unify the body of Christ and seeks for one’s glory and fame, for example, is a spirit-quenched program. I would take this a little further, Christian theology traditionned in Euro-American values and cultures already supress the Spirit, particularly when others are absent, viewed as “outsiders,” in their system of thought and everyday discourse.
Further, as you (lionel) clearly articulated theology is never original, it’s essentially indebted to former theological discourses or idea (s). What we have today is that people endeavoring further to elucidate on what’s already been spoken in order to make theological ideas more accessible to the body of Christ (I hope?).
Personally, I could see various theological voices in Scriptures, the various ways each writer remembers Christ, expresses their own understanding of God, and salvation history. Sometimes one encounters in the Bible some seemingly theological contradictions or ambiguities, if you will. But the central theme of Scripture is perhas the finality of Jesus Christ as both Savior and Lord of the world by means of the cross.
I hope I will not get stabbed for this
Blessings,
Lou
Bro. CJ,
You got that right brother! We can get confused over many things and come to many different conclusions but the central theme of Scripture is the finality of Jesus Christ as both our Savior and Lord by means of the cross.
Don’t worry, my mental condition does not allow me near knives, LOL!!!!
Man this post is dicey, took me a while to read all the comments. I have read many books on systematic theology, hermaneutics, commentaries, study bibles and the like. I love it but I also know brothers who cringe at the sound of systematic theology, sounds too academic. In the end of the day even I will lay off those fine books by godly men to the side and just sit on the feet of Christ and learn the word by help of the Holy Ghost, He’s the best exegete. I concur with Celucien, please no knives or other nasty sharp objects.
Eddie,
I think that is what Steven and Daniel oh and BLD were all conveying. I think they were right and I am glad that I could work it out with gracious brothers who didn’t mind bringing some heat and passion!
Thanks Bro. Lawrence.
Thanks Bro. Lawrence.