I really didn’t want to post anything about politics again. The election is over and we have what we have. But this election has been one of the most divisive elections I have seen in my lifetime, this is a rather short lifetime given the fact I am but 30 but this has been very tense from what I have read, listened to and now have experienced on this blog.
There is something that really, really confuses me as it relates to Evangelical Christians who side more with the Republican party (though they will say it isn’t about Rep vs Dem) and defnitely with McCain over Obama. What confuses me follows.
1. Many Christians say they wanted to vote for a man who more reflected their values. Those values happen to be abortion and gay marriage. I agree that both are in error to the Christian way. Abortion is wrong and Gay Marriage is wrong. Abortion to me seems to be a universal law, I could be wrong but I do believe that. Gay Marriage not so much. I believe that to be a Christian/Religious (Mormons) value, not a universal value. Many cultures define marriage many ways, everything from polygamy to the trading of property is how marriage is defined. Not to mention in some places the woman is the property of the husband because of the sinful devaluing of Women across the globe (I never understand how that is universal problem, I guess it is Eve’s fault). So I am with those who oppose abortion maybe not so much gay marriage, but I am more indifferent on the latter.
2. But there seems to be a problem. Many were against Obama for his more socialistic/Marxist views. I don’t believe he is either but that has been explained in other posts. But what really gets me is when the same Christians uphold the moral value system of gay marriage and abortion but then say in the same breath “it is not the responsibility of the government to provide healthcare, education, or to take the money of the well off in the name of taxes and give it to the poor”. Now, is abortion and gay marriage any more immoral than ignoring the widow, orphan and poor? When I read my bible I see a the Apostles very concerned for the real physical needs and in 1 John, James, 1 Timothy, Matthew 25 and a slew of God’s accusations in the minor and major prophets there is a huge relation between a love for God and a real, need meeting love for the poor!
So what I am asking is why do we want the government to only uphold half of our moral values? Why is it perfectly fine for the government to control how people live morally but not how they live economically? What I hear all the time is “it is the job of the church to provide for the poor and marginalized” while in the same breath they say “it is the job of the Church and the State to uphold Christian moral values”. Am I missing something here? Am I the only one struggling with the disconnect? If you will fight for the values of abortion and gay marriage politically, shouldn’t we also use the same amount of energy and tenacity to fight for education, healthcare, programs to help single mothers, childcare for those who must have two working parents because of their education and income levels, shouldn’t we fight to get decent living quarters and to help those with AIDS? How can we say one is the job of the government because of our historic Christian values but the other isn’t.
Sorry for the rambling but I don’t get it. Either we want the government invovled with every aspect that the Church should be doing or none of it. If not we are being very selective about what Jesus values.
Lionel-
You said: Sorry for the rambling but I don’t get it. Either we want the government invovled with every aspect that the Church should be doing or none of it. If not we are being very selective about what Jesus values.
I’d like to go on the record and state that I’m for the “none of it” option.
Lionel,
It is funny how Jesus never tried to impose anything on the Roman Government of the day. In fact He told people to pay their taxes, obey the current law and even submitted himself to the judgment of the government (albeit with the purpose of getting to the cross). He didn’t even seem to concern himself with correcting the government.
Lionel: “Either we want the government invovled with every aspect that the Church should be doing or none of it. If not we are being very selective about what Jesus values.”
I don’t think the government not being involved in abortion is an option. The Bible says that one role of the government is to punish evil:
“For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.” — Romans 13:3-4 (NIV)
“Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, 14or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right.” — 1 Peter 2:13-14
Killing children (abortion) is wickedness that the government should punish. God has given government’s a role which they neglect when they not only tolerate, but actually fund, things like abortion.
But what about care for the poor?
Well I think there are two issues. Some people are poor because of injustice - and here there is a role for the government.
“If a king judges the poor with fairness, his throne will always be secure.” — Proverbs 29:14 (NIV)
“The sayings of King Lemuel—an oracle his mother taught him: “O my son … “Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy.” — Proverbs 31:1-2a,8-9
So it is the government’s role to see that the poor are not oppressed. But I am not sure it is the government’s role to have a tax system that re-distributes wealth involuntarily from the rich to the poor. But care for the poor is definately the responsibility of families and the church (1 Timothy 5:4,16) and of wealthy individuals:
“Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. 18Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share.” — 1 Timothy 6:17-18 (NIV)
Ben,
Isn’t all sin evil? Is Adultrey any less evil than abortion? Is homosexuality any less evil than abortion? Define evil biblically? I would like to actually continue this conversation. Thanks.
Its true. People tend to nitpick certain issues when its covenient while neglecting the others. I don’t side with either party although within the Democrats and Republicans there are people who do look out for the little guy.
Government is good, keeps everyone from killing each other. It is no coincidence that most of our laws are derived from the Bible–>God himself. In fact if you see the 10 Commandments they are pretty universal in every culture. We know its bad to steal, lie, disobey etc. Here in the USA the Constitution is the supreme law of the land, its a social contract we all agree to so that our country can remain peacefull and free. If we interpret Constitution with the same care and scrutiny as we do with the Bible then we might see that our form of government should be small yet one that is accountable to the people.
Should the government provide universal healthcare? public assistance? programs to help the poor? yes and no. To me its iffy, we get taxed on these things. If the government’s power to tax is strong then expect a very socialist and possibly tyrannical government. I don’t think its the job of the government to get too involved in the personal lives of its citizens but its job is to maintain order and promote an environment of freedom where the people can live prosperous, free and enjoy the fruits of their labors.
As for the moral issue churches are in the position to teach the people about God and what he reveals about himself as well as his purpose for us (through the Bible). If we apply what the bible teaches us this won’t make soceity perfect (since we do commit sin) but at least it would be stable and peaceful. I’m sure the poor would be fed, right values like hard work and thirft would be cherished, and elected officials will be able to make sound decisions. Why becuase the people as whole understand what is right and wrong.
Good government is dependent on a virtuous soceity. If the soceity is immoral then we should expect bad government.
This quote sums it al up
Well, Doctor, what have we got—a Republic or a Monarchy?”
Ben Franklin: “A Republic, if you can keep it.”
Before we can address why people are poor, millions suffering from AIDS, cheaper housing, cheaper healthcare, abortion etc. We must address our moral situation and we as Christians know what is total depravity. All the laws in the world will not fix this situation only a changed heart sensitive to God will, only the Gospel can do this.
Ed,
I agree, but we have no problem being in a war that “most” of America wants no part in any longer. So our tax dollars can be taken and given to a war, taken and given to AIG, taken and given to the Auto Industry the Banking Industry all under the smoke screen of employment when most of us see this as an issue with the value of people’s stock. If we believe it is perfectly fine to keep the rich, rich with an act of socialism and that is exactly what we did with this 700 billion dollar bail out (I didn’t see the church in an uproar about this) but can’t find 700 billion to help people with healthcare something is seriously wrong. Not to mention it looks like no one is going to have a problem bailing out Ford, GM and other companies who pay their CEO’s and board members outrageous pay.
If it is Laissez-faire in people’s personal life (let whatever they do run it’s course) why not in economics? But many of the well to do Christians were very concerned about the industry and their stock and retirement values. But for some reason, we don’t let their bad financial decisions run its course but we let those who make bad decisions (some very early in life) run its course. We say “the sinned let them deal with” Glad God bails us out.
As far as the inconsistencies in moral judgment goes:
Could it be that the driving force behind Christians seeking the “moral highground” in regards to voting is due to our natural tendency toward works righteousness. Track with me here.
Under a works righteousness system, an individual is driven by the desire to let their “good” outweigh their “bad” and thereby please the “God/god” they believe in. Christians seem to use this same motivation in regards to voting. They hope that by choosing the candidate they believe promotes the most good, they will then please God.
(This also assumes that by one’s vote they are able to guarantee that the candidate WILL promote the most good.)
The problem is that the very nature of Christ’ sacrifice shows that only 100% obedience can “please” God. God does not grade on a sliding scale or curve. He is holy, righteous, undefiled and separate from sinners. Therefore, to attach His name or approval to a vote which itself is an endorsement of “the best salesman’s” pitch, and that whether the pitch conveys the truth or not, is thoroughly short-sighted.
What do you all think? Is our voting choices at times driven by a works righteousness mentality?
Ooops, I meant “Are our voting choices at times driven…”
…”Either we want the government invovled with every aspect that the Church should be doing or none of it. ”
Okay, I choose none of it.
P.S. - I finally got around to answering your questions on the “Wretched Man” post….
I really appreciate this post. It really made me think about my convictions and what I was asking the government to do for me. I guess my conclusion is that I don’t “depend” on the government to be Jesus’ hands & feet in any way shape or form…… but I do believe it’s extremely important to vote men into office that agree with my convictions. Murder is a different level of severity than any other action. Not in forgiveness — but in consequence. I do believe it’s the government’s job to punish murderers.
Basically, I guess it just comes down to what you believe the government’s role is, right?
I think the primary role of government is to reward good & punish the evildoer. Protection & defense. Infastructure. In punishing evil…… Murder of millions of innocent babies is very evil. Clearly, there are different levels of “evil” isn’t there? All are forgiveable — but all are not on the same level of severity/consequence.
If one wants to argue that not giving resources to those less fortunate than us is “evil” then I guess I can accept that —— but then the government’s role in that case should be to punish those being evil — not to take over that role of providing resources to anybody that doesn’t have “enough”.
I don’t get how those issues could be equal.
Thanks for making me think
(I intended to post this on other site, but the mod decided not to post it. It’s the mod’s prerogative, I understand that, but hopefully it will be posted in full, on this site. I was addressing several folks on the other site with this post, but have deleted their names while posting on this thread, for what’s done on another site, stays on the other site, but not the content of this post. LOL!)
First of all, folks who are anti-Obama, while using the Bible and God’s judgment thing on a nation, really ought to get a GRIP!
One person on here stated that God will give a nation the leadership it desires, which tells a lot about the heart of the nation, as it stands before God. Well, were right wing repubs and evangelicals considering this reality, when they put Bush in the White House, and elected a majority Republican Congress, with all of the scandals drenched throughout that body, as well as in the white house, too numerous to highlight?
Does the repub rule over the last 8 years (6 in the Congress; 8 in the White House) say something about evangelicals, and right wingers hearts, based on the leadership we received during these last 8 years, or was it okay for these repubs in power to do what they did, because many of them are ANTI- ABORTION?
And before folks on here act as if abortion is such a deal breaker, when it comes to them withholding support from a political candidate, are you going to tell me that evangelicals, if they had a choice between Rudy Guiliani-if he were the repub nominee-and Barak Obama for president, that they wouldn’t have chosen Guiliani, despite his pro-abortion position, over Obama? Many evangelicals and repubs in general, would’ve flocked towards Guiliani, if that’s all the choice they had, seeing as how he’s fiscally conservative, and conservative on criminal justice issues. Now true enough, he didn’t get nominated, but that wasn’t because he was pro-abortion/choice, because if that were the case-HUCKABEE WOULD’VE BEEN NOMINATED INSTEAD OF MCCAIN, AND HE’S ANTI-ABORTION.
Again, this is all political, and those from the right wing tribe are not gracious losers.
How do folks know that God isn’t judging the repub party and those supporters that supported these corrupt politicians during the last 8 years, who used God as a justification for their votes and support? You see, folks on here are quick to say that God is judging the nation by placing Obama in office, because the nation is out of sync with God, well I will argue that the salt of the earth lost its’ flavor, when they put Bush in office-TWICE. Maybe God is judging right wingers and evangelicals, for despising the poor, and the working poor, and middle class, because of their elitist economic excuses cloaked in religious double speak.
If Obama is God’s judgment on this nation, one can argue that the judgment is similar to Bill Clinton getting into the White House, after repub rule in the White House damaged the country, only for another repub president to follow Bill’s “anti-christ” reign of prosperity, only to plunge the nation into financial ruin, and a sordid reputation throughout the world.
Secondly, some folks on here claim that a graduated tax system isn’t biblical (i.e. Godly) as if they purport to know what God thinks on this specific matter. Truth be told, there’s no place in the Bible where it says that God would be against such a system, or for it.
As a matter of fact, there’s no where in the bible where we have social security, but how many right wingers, evangelicals, and folks who view Obama as the anti-christ, will give up their social security, just because this system’s not mentioned in the bible? Veterans Benefits aren’t mentioned in the bible, but how many right wingers, evangelicals, and folks who think Obama is a marxist anti-christ, will give up their benefits as veterans? Medicare’s not in the bible, but how many right wingers, evangelicals, and those folks who think Obama’s a socialist muslim, marxist anti-christ, will give up their medicare or medicaid?
All of those benefits are mild tenets of what folks refer to as socialism, but I guess those are good socialist principles, not the graduated tax system, which is what we had under the Clinton administration.
Truth be told, even if Obama was pro-life, you’d still have repubs, right-wingers, and evangelicals, bashing Obama, simply because he looks left when he gets out of bed, instead of right.
Again, repub right wingers, and many evangelicals are sore kooky losers, and many (not all) don’t have a gracious bone in their whole being, while thumping on the bible, and twisting scriptures so that it can fit their own POLITICAL and personal agendas.
You don’t impress me with your single issue voting scheme, seeing as how you have plenty of more issues out there where you should find common ground on. Not being a single issue voter doesn’t make someone’s salvation questionable, rather, it means that the person who’s not a single issue voter is looking at the broader picture. True enough, I believe that abortion is murder. Some person on here implied that I have let society influence my thinking in regards to this issue-but I haven’t. Rather, I am mature enough to realize that I have to weigh and balance the scale, and come to the conclusion that certain issues, at least for right now, have to be dealt with, with the hopes that abortion will be taken care in God’s time.
So what, many of you will vote for someone who’s pro-life, but anti the working poor and middle class; anti giving universal, or accessible healthcare for everyone, including babies; anti creating new job industries based on a green economy; etc.?
Oh yeah my friends, you want to question someone’s salvation and relationship with God, but yet you yourself don’t want to contribute, or see the need, to help the least of these, outside of giving of your substance to a local church body, or folks that you know, or those who are “approved?”
Naw man, I’m not impressed (not that you have to care about who I’m impressed by) with that type of christianity, or anyone who claims to be a follower of Christ, and mind you-I DIDN’T EVEN VOTE FOR OBAMA!
As far as playing the race card, it’s been expressed on this site that white liberals play the race card, by making black folks feel as if their perpetual victims, buttressed by a paternalistic spirit that they feel white liberals have towards the black population.
Well you know what, I use to somewhat feel this way, and would point all of my fingers at white liberals, but you know what happened on my way to the bank-I GREW UP!
White republican elitists, and right wing evangelicals are capable of playing the race card as well. Many white right wing, rich elitist types, rail against heavy taxation, simply because they don’t want their pocket books tampered with, however they know that if they cloaked their message in that part alone, it wouldn’t receive that much traction from middle america. So what they do is imply, infer, and in some instances, outright state, either in public, or behind closed doors, that black folks are lazy, don’t want to work, and want something for nothing. According to them, that’s why white guilty feeling liberals want to raise your taxes, your rich white brethren’s taxes, so that the money can leak from them, to those lazy trifling black folks, who want everything handed to them.
They fool the average joe six pack white guy, and hockey mom, who are struggling, and can deserve some relief, despite them being hardworkers, into thinking that if their taxes were lower, then they wouldn’t need health insurance, social security, medicare, and the like. Why? BECAUSE THEY WOULD HAVE ENOUGH MONEY TO INVEST AND PROVIDE SUCH LUXURIES FOR THEMSELVES AND THEIR FAMILIES.
This is the trick, the lie, and the deceit that white, right wing conservatives have been using on the white working poor and middle class, so that they can vote against their own interests. And the double crossing thing about all of this is-MANY OF THOSE FOLKS VOTING AGAINST THEIR ECONOMIC INTERESTS DON’T EVEN PAY INCOME TAX, JUST PAYROLL TAXES, BUT YET THEY THINK THEY’RE REALLY DOING SOMETHING WHEN THEY SUPPORT THESE RICH ELITIST, RIGHT WING REPUB LEADERS OF THEIRS.
I can go further with that, but I went there because the topic of white liberal paternalism and largesse was brought up, which is something right-wingers will always do, yet many of them need to hear the opposite side of the coin, which is just as horrific, and in some cases even more so.
Lastly, black folks don’t have to feel guilty for putting Obama in the white house, because as I said before, if black folks have to feel guilty and repent, then so do whites, latinos and other groups, who assisted with Obama’s victory. The black vote alone couldn’t put Obama in the white house, but rather it was a broad coalition.
(On the same token, evangelicals and right wingers of all stripes, must apologize for putting the Bushes in office.)
So in other words, black folks haven’t done anything wrong. Besides, DON’T MOST BLACK PEOPLE OVERWHELMINGLY VOTE FOR THE DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE, IN EVERY ELECTION, IN THE 90 PERCENTILE RANGE, BUT YET THEIR SUPPORT OF OBAMA IS RACIST? Please.
There was a poll I was checking out this morning, where it said that about 71 percent have an optimistic view about Obama. I think it was 71 percent. But I do know for certain that only 17 percent of those that were polled have a negative view on Obama.
I’m not saying that this small percentage group ought not have reservations about Obama, but I do know that amidst that 17%, are those members of the lunatic fringe.
Now I don’t expect this to be posted, along with my other posts, but I had to speak my mind. Moreover, other folks need to read this as well, even if they disagree with all of it.
I agree completely, the Iraq war (which is unconstitutional and undeclared), No Child Left Behind, AIG, Bear Stearns, Auto industry bailouts including the $700 billion bailout are steps in the wrong direction. When government attempts to micromangage our lives they do a bad job of it. When government helps big business it isn’t capitalsm, it is corproratism.
If no one cares what is going on then of course the bailouts will continue. It takes a morally conscious, concerned citizenry to hold government accountable for its evil. If people really hated what the government is doing vote them out, did your Rep or Sen. vote for the war or bailout? simple vote them out and put someone who will listen when you call them. Unfortunately for the 51% majority thanks to public school indoctrination, ignorance, just plain selfishness we all get bread and circuses instead of finding people with real solutions that will benefit everyone. The only way possible to change our culture is through the Gospel first then apply those values to our soceity.
Voddie Baucham has some nice insights on this in his blog as well
http://www.voddiebaucham.org/vbm/Blog/Entries/2008/11/8_It_Wasn%E2%80%99t_Supposed_to_Be_Like_This.html
What would be interesting to know, is what percentage of all the abortions done yearly are done to women professing to be Christians! If the numbers are in line with other data, such as divorce, I think it would shed some light on the issue.
Everyone rightly says that abortion is murder, but if within Christendom the numbers are comparable or on the rise, what does that say? If we can’t even make a difference in our own circles (and it’s only speculation on my part becuz I don’t have actual figures) then why would anyone outside Christendom listen?
Barna has plenty information and I think the first link presents some interesting data. Even if we as Believer’s succeed in voting into office those officials whose moral values reflect ours, it’s less likely to have a lasting effect due to the change in viewpoints of what is “moral” by the upcoming generations.
Quote taken from first link below-
“When asked to put the findings about Busters in context, especially in comparison to the views and behaviors of Baby Boomers, Kinnaman explained that “the morality of Busters comes from a very different background. For instance, divorce, crime, single-parent households, and suicide were much more prevalent while Busters grew up. Boomers took moral experimentation to new heights, but Busters now live in a world where such experimentation is the norm, not the exception. Busters have a more disconnected, individualized, less trusting spin on morality. They are trying to create a sense of identity because they feel that shaping influences such as family, church, and community have failed them. Boomers experimented to overthrow the morals of their parents, while Busters live with a mindset of trying to survive.”
http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&BarnaUpdateID=249
http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&BarnaUpdateID=97
http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdateNarrow&BarnaUpdateID=216&PageCMD=Print
Just some interesting data from Barna.
I Ain’t Nobody!
Seekerman said:
“How do folks know that God isn’t judging the repub party and those supporters that supported these corrupt politicians during the last 8 years, who used God as a justification for their votes and support? You see, folks on here are quick to say that God is judging the nation by placing Obama in office, because the nation is out of sync with God, well I will argue that the salt of the earth lost its’ flavor, when they put Bush in office-TWICE. Maybe God is judging right wingers and evangelicals, for despising the poor, and the working poor, and middle class, because of their elitist economic excuses cloaked in religious double speak.”
Somehow, this just flies over the head of people and it’s a dangerous reality of what could be playing out becuz we attach God’s stamp of approval on someone simply becuz they agree with a stance.
But as Believers we CAN’T be outta step with God… can we? (I’m being sarcastic)
Thank you seekerman!
I Ain’t Nobody!
I personally believe in the theory that our government is controlled by an elite few international bankers/industrialist/royalty who also control most countries throughout the world through organizations like the Federal Reserve, International Monetary Fund, World Bank, etc. The goal in the past and still today seems to be the break down of nations’ sovereignty and an increasing control of the world’s wealth and resources. The political leaders seem to be only puppet spokesman for their higher agendas. The mainline churches and public schools are apart of the indoctrination process of the masses here in America. The root causes of many of our tragedies (economy/disease/starvation) are rarely if ever discussed on the controlled mainstream media. For instance, you hardly ever hear about the government spraying programs that have been going on for decades. And how these programs have and are continuing to affect hundreds of millions of people here in the U.S. Yes, the government has been spraying us with who knows what for DECADES. Our major food supplies have also been compromised to help in breaking down our immune systems thus making us more susceptible to all types of man made and natural diseases and infections.
Have you ever wondered why we continue to advance at great lengths in the fields of science/medicine/technology, yet people are getting sicker and more dependent on medicines and hospitalizations? I wonder why! Living longer but sicker.
Who profits from sick/diseased people?
The same ones who control the major oil companies, major pharmaceutical companies, major banks, and all other major industries, and control major legislation and economic policies.
The whole Democrat vs Republican, White vs Black, Communist vs Capitalist divisions are purposed and fueled (by these elitist) for complete dominance of the masses. After all, a house divided against itself will never stand!
Just some food for thought on this whole political subject.
I agree Jon! It doesn’t seem that we, as Christians, go deeper and look into the things that are really taking place in our society. I would encourage you all to take a look @ the zeitgeist videos on youtube for some real eye opening. Pretty interesting stuff, assuming it is all factual. http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com will lead you to several parts.
This is what the Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson had to say in a recent editiorial:
“Ninety-six percent of black voters supported Barack Obama and the majority of these voters were influenced by black preachers to put race ahead of their country and their faith,” said Rev. Peterson. “How can ministers who are supposed to lead their flock to Jesus Christ instead lead them to a socialist like Obama? The truth is that most black ministers don’t have a real relationship with God and they are leading their congregations to hell. These blind leaders helped elect their black ‘Messiah’. This ‘Messiah’ happens to be the most left-wing member of the U.S. Senate,” said Rev. Peterson.
Here’s where president-elect Obama stands on key issues:
Believes in abortion on demand (virtually under any circumstance), and has told Planned Parenthood that sex-ed for kindergartners is ‘the right thing to do’ (as long as it’s ‘age appropriate’);
Has promised to repeal the federal Defense of Marriage Act and would allow homosexual ‘marriages’ to be made legal in all 50 states;
Would appoint far left activist judges who’d pervert and misinterpret the U.S. Constitution;
Has pledged to dismantle ‘Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell’ in the military. Supports open homosexuality, bisexuality, and transexuality in all military branches, barracks and shower facilities.
I’m sure he is ‘hated’ by many of our Christian brethren!
Anyone who hates Obama is not a believer/Christian as love for God and our neighbor is the distinguishing mark of someone who has been born again and regenerated by the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit.
*correction*
I meant, I’m sure Rev Peterson is hated by many of our brethren because of his stance. Sorry for the confusion!
Jesse Lee Peterson is racist against his own people. Don’t get me wrong, I believe in busting on black folks, and their wrongdoings. I’ve done so on many occasions. But with Peterson, I discern a contempt towards black folks.
In his eyes, whether it is true or not, black folks are always at fault, no matter what.
Hutch, you are right, and despite Peterson’s righteous protestations, he’s never exhibited any love towards black people in recent years, just hatred.
You see, supposedly telling the truth on a particular thing, doesn’t mean that the person doing the griping love what they’re attacking. You can attack some thing, and tell the truth on a particualar thing, and still be full of hatred on the thing you’re attacking. The fact that you have the “truth” on your side, is just a convenient excuse/mask to espouse the hatred you have within, for a particular thing.
This is one of the reasons why man’s righteousness is as filthy rags.
Seekerman,
So, which issue that he addressed do you disagree with or is he wrong on the subject? Just curious.
I do not know anything about Rev. Peterson or his positions, I personally do not know if he hates anyone or if anyone hates him-I’m just saying if anyone names the name of Christ and hates someone, they are self deceived.
Christians are identified by loving God, their brother, their neighbor and their enemy.
This covers everybody. Hating anyone is not an option for a believer/Christian.
So hopefully Rev. Peterson is not hated by many of our brethren.
Unless by brethren you mean black people.
I take the word to mean all of those in Christ regardless of ethnic background.
Thinking,
Jesse Lee Peterson said a conservative conference for black people, on C-Spann, a couple of years ago, that black folks are always late, that’s why we’re not really all that dependable. He asked Shelby Steele, why is that black leaders, such as politicians and the like, run down and ruin everything we touch, which implied that there was some type of genetic predisposition to our situation.
It was so plainly evident, to where Shelby Steele, a man who’s known to not give black folks any quarter himself, said it’s more to do with ideology, and not genetics. And he stressed he had nothing to do with genetics, with an incredulous look on his face.
He called the katrina victim “fat pigs” who live in filth.
He said that white folks ought to say anything to black folks that’s on their minds concerning race, and don’t worry about what black folks think about them, because black folks are racist and don’t like white folks anyway-which is racially incendiary.
Ah man, I can go on, and and on, and on, with this handkerchief head.
So hopefully some of these examples explain why I think this man is wicked, and doesn’t possess the true of love of Christ himself. This man hates his own people.
I meant to say in the first sentence of the first paragraph:
Jesse Lee Peterson said ON a conservative conference for black people, on C-Spann, a couple of years ago, that black folks are always late, that’s why we’re not really all that dependable.
I meant to say in the second paragraph:
It was so plainly evident, to where Shelby Steele, a man who’s known to not give black folks any quarter himself, said it’s more to do with ideology, and not genetics. And he stressed it had nothing to do with genetics, with an incredulous look on his face.
I agree that those things are horrible to say, if that’s what he said. My question was, based on what he said in the recent article, which do you disagree with?
And another thing, for him to outright lie and say that black folks voted for Obama, simply because he’s black, just shows the intensity of his hatred for black people. Okay-WHY DID 90% OF BLACK FOLKS VOTE FOR KERRY OR GORE? Was it because they were black, or DEMOCRAT?
And so what if black folks felt a tinge of pride voting for a democratic candidate that was black? Does that make them racist?
When an overwhelming amount of Jews supported the Gore/Lieberman ticket, was it because the Jews are overwhelmingly racist? Or when Greeks overwhelmingly supported Dukakis? Does that make the Greeks racist, in need of, and in search of, a messiah?
Or how about when an extreme percentage of Irish Catholics, or just Catholics in general, voted for JFK-does that make them racist?
Jesse Lee wouldn’t dare refer to these people as racist, but yet he will pick on his own people, and he calls himself a minister with all of the wickedness inside his vessel?
So no my friend, Jesse Lee Peterson’s across the board assessment on black folks voting patterns and their “racism”, just isn’t estimable.
It’s like this-SOMETIMES TELLING IT LIKE IT IS, AIN’T TELLING IT LIKE IT IS.
Jesse Lee has a dark and insidious heart for the black collective, and he needs to repent for his racism and contempt.
-I agree that those things are horrible to say, if that’s what he said. My question was, based on what he said in the recent article, which do you disagree with?
*Well, in the above post, I mentioned one of the things that I disagreed on.
Also let me remind you that on an episode of Geraldo Riveira’s now defunct day time talk show “Geraldo,” the good reverend said that black women ought to be slapped in the mouth by black men, in order to keep them in check.
He said that when black women get in power, it goes to their heads and makes them crazy.
Trust me, I’m not making any of this up, neither is this an urban legend. For anyone out there wanting to verify this, this statement of his was made on the show where Shaharazad Ali was on.
I know many folks reading these words may not know who this woman is, but that’s okay-I don’t expect many folks to know. I’m just giving a foundation in order to search out this episode, so that you can see the good reverend in action.
And to think this man has the nerves to hold annual Jesse Jackson repudiation days, when this man isn’t working with a clean heart himself, based on some of the fruit he’s producing.
Lionel,
Yes all sin is evil, and human governments should punish evil. But human governments are limited to obvious sins because of the requirements the Bible has for evidence.
“On the testimony of two or three witnesses a man shall be put to death, but no one shall be put to death on the testimony of only one witness.” — Deuteronomy 17:6
“One witness is not enough to convict a man accused of any crime or offense he may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.” — Deuteronomy 19:15
So both coveting and theft are sinful, but the government will naturally have more of a role in punishing thieves than covetous people.
I cannot see why what Biblical objection there should not be laws against things like adultery and homosexual practice in the UK and USA.
Although all sin is evil and deserves God’s wrath, i think some sin is worse than others. The Bible does talk of different levels of guilt, for example:
“But when the judge died, the people returned to ways even more corrupt than those of their fathers, following other gods and serving and worshiping them.” — Judges 2:19
“You not only walked in their ways and copied their detestable practices, but in all your ways you soon became more depraved than they.” — Ezekiel 16:47
And child killing is one of the sins the Bible speaks most harshly against:
“You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.” — Deuteronomy 12:31 (NIV)
Seekerman,
Thanks for answering my question. Is that passion or anger that I interpret in your responses? Secondly, you have an incredible memory on the things that Rev. has said in the past!
It’s more so passion. And I guess the historian in me (I have a degree in History), has geared my brain towards remembering every little tid bit, and obscure thing, that other folks will overlook.
Truth be told, I totally forgot about Jesse Lee, and his organization “Bond”. The last I heard about him, or from him, was in 1990, when this particular episode aired. The next time I see ol’ Jesse, was when I got digital cable, and checked out an episode of the “O’Reilly Factor,” and that was in 2004, or 2005.
Ben Stevenson
You’re right Ben, I do believe that some sins are worse than others, despite what politically correct christians may want to think in this century, but likewise, unlike many right wing evangelicals-I feel that hating the poor, or neglecting those who are the least of these, including the hard-working poor and middle-class, is sinful as well.
Mind you, I didn’t vote for Obama, but that still doesn’t negate the fact that I ought to pray for him, so that God can lead him to make wise decisions.
Likewise, even though I don’t cotton towards Jesse Lee’s self-righteous indignation, and episodes of zeal pronouncements without knowledge, I pray that he will eventually see the error of his ways…
Ben and Seekerman,
Proverbs 6:16-19 seems to me to be one of the few places that you can find that rate sins on a scale. It could be said that every sin is a violation of one of these things that God “hates”, but then that would make all sins equal. So don’t go there.
Or what about the famous Romans 1 text that people use to elevate “Homosexuality” above other sins, including murder? Well, what about verses 28-32? It isn’t even specifically mentioned! Though, terms there could definitely be applied to the homosexual lifestyle. And those that are there seem to be equally evil in God’s eyes.
Or what about I Corinthians 6:9-10? Homosexuality is there but it is not elevated over the other sins is it?
Or what about Revelations 21:8? The “cowardly and unbelieving” are mentioned first. Homosexuality is not specifically mentioned. Though, again, terms there definitely apply.
So here’s my point. People may sin at different degrees. We may even react differently. God may even have, in the Old Covenant, prescribed different punishments which seem to denote unequal levels of offence. But the sins themselves are equally bad and damnable.
The church should be equally put off by divorce, especially amongst believers, as they are by the idea of same-sex marriage. The church should be equally put off by innocent women, children and men who die in wars as they are by abortions. The church should be put off by corporate greed as they are by laziness.
Just a thought….or two.
By the way,
Jesse Lee Peterson was interviewed on the radio by Pastor John E. Coleman. You can go to his website, the link is in the right column, and listen. I think you have to click on “Ram Radio Days”.
-Or what about the famous Romans 1 text that people use to elevate “Homosexuality” above other sins, including murder? Well, what about verses 28-32? It isn’t even specifically mentioned! Though, terms there could definitely be applied to the homosexual lifestyle. And those that are there seem to be equally evil in God’s eyes.
-Or what about I Corinthians 6:9-10? Homosexuality is there but it is not elevated over the other sins is it?
-Or what about Revelations 21:8? The “cowardly and unbelieving” are mentioned first. Homosexuality is not specifically mentioned. Though, again, terms there definitely apply.
-The church should be equally put off by divorce, especially amongst believers, as they are by the idea of same-sex marriage.
*Doesn’t the Bible refer to homosexuality as an abomination? Does not the bible say that when folks fornicate, they sin against their own flesh.
Having said that, it’s like this:
A fornicating act that produces heterosexual sex, is a grievous sin, however, that act of heterosexual sex can be sanctified, if it’s done within the auspices of marriage.
A fornicating act that produces homosexual sex, is a grievous sin, however, that act of homosexual sex can never be sanctified, even if it’s supposedly done within the auspices of marriage…
-By the way,
Jesse Lee Peterson was interviewed on the radio by Pastor John E. Coleman. You can go to his website, the link is in the right column, and listen. I think you have to click on “Ram Radio Days
*No thank you brother. I’d rather pray for him, than to hear anything further from him. Besides, I’m about to eat dinner, and…
Well, you know…
This is my last post on the topic of Obama’s presidency, but to those self-delusional, right wing evangelicals, who claim that Obama is the anti christ, or the closest thing to it, and will claim with a crooked face that folks who have disdain for him don’t have this hatred due to his race, but his politics, ought to get real, look in the mirror, as well as tell the truth and shame the devil.
I know many would like to think that way, especially black evangelical right wing types like that dark soul, and intra-racist Jesse Lee Peterson, but I’m sorry- you can’t always sanctify your questionable thoughts, spoken words, or actions, under the blanket of Christ.
Check out this article right wing, evangelical types who claim that none of Barak’s persecution has anything to do with racism, and that his attacks are similar to Bill Clinton being hated by the right wing, because of his “radical” political beliefs:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081115/ap_on_el_pr/obama_threats
Whew! Too many comments to read. Let me add to the verbiage with these observations:
With regard to the people of God, we are to submit to the government but not so that we fail to submit to God.
All protective laws (as opposed to administrative laws) are someone’s idea of morality.
It is either right or wrong to be involved in government. If it is right to be involved in government, then Christians should encourage the legislation of Christian morals since we are the Body of Christ and it is our duty to disciple the nation according to the Great Commission inasmuch as we teach the true gospel and Christ Himself is Truth. If it is wrong to be involved in government, then we shouldn’t whine about not receiving justice from the government. Christ didn’t whine about it, but encouraged His people individually to deal justly and graciously with others.
While Christ left Rome alone in His rhetoric, He strongly condemned the Pharisees for their injustices.
We don’t know everything. Christ calls His people to be righteous, but not to be moralists. That means that what is right is in our attitudes and intents rather than in our resulting behaviors. So, we may do something that someone else considers right or wrong. If our intent is honestly to glorify God in obedience to Him, then we are righteous. That means that if we voted for Obama because we believed him to be the choice that would most glorify God, then we were righteous. That also means that if we voted for McCain because we believed him to be the choice that most glorified God, then we are righteous.
You mentioned homosexuality. If someone has homosexual attractions and believes that following those attractions glorifies God then that person is righteous. However, after reading such as Romans 1, if that same person is honest in desiring to glorify God, then he should have serious doubts as to whether such behavior glorifies God and seek rather to be conformed to God’s Truth than to justify homosexual attractions by distorting his hermeneutical understanding of the scriptures.
The question is: what motivates us? Do our desires wrestle against the Holy Spirit or do we desire to die to sin so that we may be purified by obedience to the Holy Spirit?