What would you think if you walked into a local church and they were singing a song with these lyrics on the screen above:
For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing…….. Wretched man that I am! Wretched man that I am! Wretched man that I am! Wretched man that I am!
That would really get you prepared for the “ministry of the word” wouldn’t it? No! Not at all. The problem is this is the mantra of many Christians. “Oh wretched man that I am”. Here is what Charles Leiter says in his book “Justification And Regeneration”
It is highly significant that this view of Romans 7 has led to the “wretched man” concept of the Christian life, where “wretchedness”and spirituality are almost equated, and the more holy we become, the more “wretched” we are. In the words of one writer: “This moan, ‘O wretched man that I am,’ expresses the normal experience of the Christian, and any Christian who does not so moan is in an abnormal and unhealthy state spiritually. The man who does not utter this cry daily is either so out of communion with Christ, or so ignorant of the teaching of Scripture, or so deceived about his actual condition, that he knows not the corruptions of his own heart and the abject failure of his own life.” A. W. Pink, “The Christian in Romans pg 149.
He then goes on to say:
In other words, the man of Romans 7 is not just battling with sin but utterly defeated by it, in stark contrast with Paul’s description of all true Christians in Romans 6 and Romans 7:1-6.
I agree with Mr. Leiter on this. If Paul’s statement in Romans 7 is the “normal Christian experience” then it doesn’t seem like we have much to do when it comes to conqueing sin in our lives. We are just a product of the old sin nature destined to be defeated and powerless to sin remember what Paul says “not the ability to carry it out”.
In steps the power of the New Covenant. I think many today have an over fixation on Justification while ignoring the completion of Christ’s work which includes Regeneration. Justification is what Jesus did, Regeneration is what Jesus is doing through the Spirit. Justification is our positional sanctification while Regeneration is our own going walk towards Christ likeness and away from sin the sin we were slaves to (Romans 6, Ephesians 2, Titus 3).
I think my Anabaptist brothers have this right. You see today Christianity is more about what Jesus did than what He is doing. We look back being “cross centered” while forgetting to move forward being “resurrection centered”. Jesus both died and raised and we are to be raised to a “newness of life”. The “wretched man” is one who has the law and has died do to that law and has no power but to look at sin and keep dying; however the Christian is a Spiritual man, who has the mind of Christ and a new power (Holy Spirit) to be a slave to Christ not to be victim to the old sinful nature. Listen the “can’t do what I want to do” dude is a dead man walking. We are not of the flesh but of the Spirit (Romans 8).
I close with this. If you are a Christian you sinned because you wanted to, not because you have to. We are free from sin’s power. We were formerly chained to it, loved it, lived to please the sinful nature. But that man was buried and has died. Our new life is with Christ in the “heavenly places”. We have now become a slave to righteousness (Romans 6). The New Covenant brings with it a New Heart which has a new disposition against sin. Not only that we not only have a new law (The Law of Christ, 1 Corinthians 9; Romans 7:4-6). We have the authority in the spirit, a power to obey it (Hebrews 8).
So the next time you hear someone quoting this, say to them “no, no that is a deafeated man, a hopeless man, a dead man”, if you are in Christ you have a New Heart, a new power, under a New Covenant and you have a new Master. Our song says “power, power, wonder working power, in the blood of the Lamb”!
so, it sounds like you’re saying that there is an actual work of the Spirit in us that gives us power to produce visible fruit of righteousness and that instead of looking to the Jesus and the work he did on the cross (alone) for our assurance of salvation we should also look to the visible work of the Spirit promised in the new covenant??
that one was for BLD…too
Q,
Note to self “self always be careful what you write”! LOL!!!!
So Q,
What kind of evidence of your salvation does this statement reveal?:
“that one was for BLD…too”
(BLD) So let me get this straight. Instead of continuing a loving discourse with someone you believe to be wrong about a certain issue (I John still ringing in your mind obviously), you use this opportunity to take a cheap shot. You refused to continue the discussion when we were having it. You told me that you didn’t have the time and that you were through with the whole thing. Now you come out of the shadows to be condescending towards another brother in Christ.
Wow, now that’s evidence of your regeneration no doubt! Do you feel more assured now that you’ve taken your shot at me?
Lionel,
You are spot one with regards to the Christian’s attitude towards sin but I think you may be missing the point with regards to the mystery man in Romans 7.
The man in Romans 7 ends up in Romans 8. If he does not make it to Romans 8 then he does not understand the empowerment that comes with the New Covenant by the Holy Spirit. Allow me to explain.
In Romans 7 the man is regenerate. His desire is to do God’s commandments. In Romans 8 he is regenerate PLUS!
Once in Romans 8 he gives evidence he is the recipient of the Promise made by the prophets in the OT scriptures and Jesus in the upper room. Our Lord promised that He and our Father would establish their abode in men just like the man of Romans 7. Once God has established his abode and union with the man of Romans 7 he is transfered to Romans 8. From there on out he is no longer just longing to love and do God’s revealed will. He’s now equipped and doing above and beyond his own expectations.
So…. With the arrival of the promised Helper, the saints of God who were alive at the time of the giving of the Holy Spirit to the newly birthed Church, were effectively transfered into the age of the New Covenant.
This means New Covenant saints do not live in the sphere of Romans 7. Yes there remains a tension in the life of the saints but now that they are in the sphere of Romans 8 they are fully equipped to love and do as conquerors in the army of Jesus Christ, their Commander in Chief. Read John Stott’s excellent commentary on Romans.
glad you guys have a sense of humor…
Btw, BLD, it’s evidence of Eph 4:29 working out in my life…saying what is needful FOR THE MOMENT…
Hey Moe,
I am going to provide you some verses from Rom 6-8. Let me know how you harmonize them. I am utterly confused on Paul’s inconsistency if the man in Romans 7 is a believer.
Rom 6
6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing,
so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.
7 For one who has died has been
set free from sin
. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must
consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus
……14 For sin will have no dominion over you,
since you are not under law but under grace.
Romans 7
9
I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died
. 10 The very commandment that promised life
proved to be death to me.
11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment,
deceived me and through it killed me.
12 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good…..14 For we know that the law is spiritual,
but I am of the flesh, sold under sin
. 15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17
So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me
Romans 8
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6
For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9
You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit
, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. 12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13
For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
1. Can you harmonize how Pauls says in Romans 6 that “we have been set free from sin” but then in Romans 7 says “sold under sin”.
2. Can you harmonize biblically how the law “kills” the Christian when he faces it? Especially since Hebrews 8 says “I will write my law on their hearts”? When a believer sees the law does he die? Does the law promise “death” to the believer?
3. Can you explain how Paul says “sin will have no dominion over you” in Romans 6 but then says in Romans 7 “what I want to do I can’t do” also after saying in Romans 6 “22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.”
4. Can you also explain in Romans 7 Paul says “but I am of the flesh, sold under sin” but then in Romans 8 he says “For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law;”
5. Finally how do we receive confidence that we can conquer sin (the same thing Paul commands in Romans 6 and in 8 ) if a christian can say “what I want to do I can’t”?
Thanks.
Let me also ask Moe,
1. What does Paul mean when he says in Romans 7 “I was once apart from the Law” but somehow the “Law camed”. Is the law coming him becoming a Christian or him already being a Christian and getting the scriptures? What does Paul mean by that?
Moe,
last question.
How can a man be regenerate without the Spirit? Is that possible? A man can be justifed by faith but doesn’t regeneration mean the Spirit has taken up residence. And if so when does Paul experience this? When was Paul between the covenants? If Paul is speaking of experience how does he qualify for that. He wasn’t a follower of Christ then became regenerate. I don’t understand how you deduce this from the text.
also, if he doesn’t make it Paul says he ain’t a believer based off the text in Romans 8 right?
Lionel,
I agree with Moe. Looking forward to his answer.
Sometimes I wonder how something so simple can be made so complicated!
I think anyone who has experienced these things firsthand, (salvation & regeneration…) can attest to the fact that the further the Spirit goes into your heart, the more He is able to uncover the motives and inner thoughts of a person, the more that person realizes how stained and wicked they really are… Even though as we walk with Christ, we are to experience freedom from the bondage of sin, that is, we don’t have to continue living it, we also gain a deeper and deeper appreciation of just how filthy the sin we are being freed from truly is. The more God’s holiness is manifest in us through the Spirit of Christ, the more we realize that this holiness has nothing to do with us, and everything to do with God. So in short, the more Christ is allowed to live in us, the more we are able to see our own wretchedness for what it is, even as the power of Christ works in us to make us like Himself…
Daniel
Daniel
Precisely. There is always that deep sense of unworthiness, doesn’t mean that one goes around beating themself but just to think, we serve a pure and a Holy God.
“What is man, that thou art mindful of him?”
Daniel,
What you say is correct. As I grow in my relationship with Christ I do realize how bad off I was before His grace. The more I grow in His image the more utterly sinful sin becomes. Now being rude, unforgiving, lusting, take on new heights because of my intimacy with God.
There is only one problem. Paul is not saying this at all in these passages. Paul uses the words: of the flesh, in bondage, sold under sin, dead because of the law. All terms that he radically disagrees with in Chapters 6 and in Chapter 8. Do you agree that how Paul speaks in 6 and 8 are in direct contradiction to how he defines himself in Romans 7 verses 14-25 or so?
Cushie,
I also agree there is a deep unworthiness because of what Christ accomplishes for us. The only problem again this isn’t what Paul is saying in these verses.
There’s absolutely no contradiction, because it’s all part of the same point. The law condemns us, showing us to be utterly sinful. In chapter 7 vs. 14-25, Paul is talking about his sinful nature. If the law is our only means of trying to achieve righteousness, then we’re in trouble, because sin is living in us, and when it hears the perfect law of God, it actually wants to do the opposite! When he says, “What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God - through Jesus Christ our Lord!”, he is setting up the next part… He is making the case that we need to be rescued from our sinful nature itself, and that it can only be done through Christ! We see this right away in the beginning of chapter 2…
1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. (you know the rest…)
It’s all part of a complete description of what’s taking place in the heart, contrasting the old nature and the new nature, the law and the spirit….
There is only a contradiction if people take an excerpt, like how Charles Leiter described, and use it as a full description of the Christian life, instead of only one piece of the puzzle, which is what Paul is doing. I think we’re actually coming to the same conclusions here, just taking different routes to get there, am I right?
I’m definitely not saying we can use such verses as excuses to languish in our sin, because like you said, we now have the power to do what is right! I’ve often heard this used by Christians, only with different buzz-words being used. The most common one would be, “Well, I’m in process…”, which is usually meant to say, “Leave me alone, and don’t expect me to be able to obey God, cuz he’s not finished with me yet…” It’s such a frustrating response to hear when trying to gently hold someone accountable… What other ones have people heard?
Daniel
Hey Daniel,
Do me a favor and answer these questions for me there seems to be obvious contradictions in Paul’s state in Romans 6-8 (sold under sin, free from sin, of the flesh, those of the flesh can’t please God, the law came and killed me, we are not under law but grace, things like that).
1. Can you harmonize how Pauls says in Romans 6 that “we have been set free from sin” but then in Romans 7 says “sold under sin”.
2. Can you harmonize biblically how the law “kills” the Christian when he faces it? Especially since Hebrews 8 says “I will write my law on their hearts”? When a believer sees the law does he die? Does the law promise “death” to the believer?
3. Can you explain how Paul says “sin will have no dominion over you” in Romans 6 but then says in Romans 7 “what I want to do I can’t do” also after saying in Romans 6 “22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.”
4. Can you also explain in Romans 7 Paul says “but I am of the flesh, sold under sin” but then in Romans 8 he says “For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law;”
5. Finally how do we receive confidence that we can conquer sin (the same thing Paul commands in Romans 6 and in 8 ) if a christian can say “what I want to do I can’t”?
6. What does Paul mean when he says in Romans 7 “I was once apart from the Law” but somehow the “Law camed”. Is the law coming him becoming a Christian or him already being a Christian and getting the scriptures? What does Paul mean by that?
Daniel,
Another question is where do you find this at in the text:
“It’s all part of a complete description of what’s taking place in the heart, contrasting the old nature and the new nature, the law and the spirit…. “
I’ll answer your last question first…
Actually, I think you already answered it yourself, in your question #4, when you quoted Romans 8: “For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.” Whoa! Look at that! Two natures…
Okay, back to the questions in order….
1) Yes, we’re set free from sin through Christ, but we still have a sin nature that is warring for control within us, until we made whole at the resurrection. That’s why, in that same verse, (ch.7 vs.25) he says: “So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but IN THE SINFUL NATURE a slave to the law of sin. See, he’s contrasting the two natures…
2) Again, yes. Actually the law “kills” everyone when they face it, although the law does not kill us, the law is good, but we are not, and thus the law reveals our sinfulness, showing our condemnation to be real. So glad you mentioned that verse in Hebrews, because it illustrates the difference between writing the Law on our hearts, and the Law written on tablets of stone. The law is the same, the difference is where you start. The first approach (which relies on the flesh) attempts to obey the law through outward action, but is doomed to fail because we are inherently sinful. The second approach, possible only when Christ has substituted himself for us, and we’ve been indwelt by His spirit, starts from the inside and works outward, propelled by the love we’ve received from Christ first, rather than the objective of achieving our own righteousness….
3) Think I’ve already answered that one, but I’ll just add that Paul is continuously flip-flopping back and forth, contrasting old nature, new nature, old vs. new. There isn’t a singular, progressive order that prevents him from doing this. It’s all there when you read the context. Look at chapter, look at chapter 7, verse 5,6 for example…
5FOR WHEN WE WRE controlled by the sinful nature,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6BUT NOW, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
See that? before and after. old nature, new nature. compare and contrast…..
4) Already dealt with that particular verse in ch. 7… (comparing the two natures…)
5) Because Christians CAN’T say that if they have been made new and are indwelt by the Spirit. The point of those verses in ch. 7 is to explain that IN OUR OWN STRENGTH, in our own sinful nature…. And that is an important thing for us to understand. Paul even reemphasizes this is the midst of that section, ch 7 vs. 18: “I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.” We see he is again talking specifically about our sinful nature, and how it is completely uncapable of doing what is right… But we now have a new nature, Christ’s nature, to empower us to do what we ourselves cannot, don’t we! What is impossible for man is possible for God….
6) Dude, the answer to your question is like four verses down… in vs. 13: Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful. I think it’s pretty apparent that he’s not speaking literally about his own life, at least not in a chronological way, but about how the law functions in relation to all of mankind. We are sinful to begin with, but without any rules each man just does what is right in his own eyes, living in ignorance of the fact that he is sinful in the eyes of God. God gave the law, so that our sin would be revealed to us, not make us sinful, but to show us the very state that we all enter life already in, one that is in rebellion towards God….
Man, thanks for all the questions, but I’m kinda tired out now! Love you Lionel, Peace… Daniel
Daniel,
1. Where does Paul say “in my new nature, I am a slave to God’s law” (not to mention the very law that he says we are under in verses 4-6? I don’t see how a believer says “I am a slave to God’s law” we are not under law but under grace!
2. Daniel. Either we are killed by the law or we aren’t. Paul says the believer is DEAD to the law. So how is it that a dead man is rekilled by the law that he is dead to (not to mention not under). Also note that the law doesn’t show “my” condemnation, because “there is no condemnation”.
3. I don’t get what you are saying here.
4. ok
5. Where does Paul say “in my own strength”? You have used this phrase but I don’t see it at all in the text in view. The later part is true, so is Paul switching between a believer non-beliver, a believer in his own strength, then a believer in the strenght of the Spirit. That seems to be the only logical conclusion.
6. God gave who the law? Which law were gentiles given? Which law comes to kill the gentile? Pork? Mixed Fabric clothing? The feasts? Which law are you referring to? And which of these laws were given to gentiles? That confuses me even more, granted the fact that the bible never, ever talks about the law coming to gentiles. As a matter fact in Ephesians 2 the law HAD TO BE DESTORYED as a dividing wall so that two men can become one new man! The law was destroyed well before Gentiles were ever evangelized friend.
6.
Lionel,
It was a pleasure chatting with you last Friday evening. We should do it again sometime.
In Christ,
Moe