I was going to name this post “The Post That Never Was”. But I didn’t. This is actually an interruption to the normal program. The reason being, I post very little about voting. Why, maybe I am bit too Kingdom Minded I guess. Maybe my heart and mind lands elsewhere when it comes to the idea that America is a Christian nation, or maybe I just think that regardless of who gets elected, the church’s mission will not be hampered by anything this world can throw at us. I think Jesus says “I will build”. What God wants, God gets, remember Genesis 1 and 6? Not to mention the resurrection?
So let me tell you why I am writing this. This is a letter of extreme disappointment. Disappointment that men I used to respect as of very recently, I currently can not respect as Shepherds anymore. I love them as brothers, but I wouldn’t recommend anyone join their church. Why? Simply put, their over-alignment on political issues. If this shoe fits but it still hurts, I serve no apologies. If you read this and you think of me differently that is fine also. I believe it is perfectly fine for a shepherd to endorse a candidate, even from the pulpit. I think there is freedom there. As long as he stresses it as a matter of his personal conviction, not Jesus’. Let me repeat that. Endorse any candidate you want, but don’t put Jesus’ stamp of approval on them, which in turns leads to you pushing your PERSONAL conviction on others as Gospel Law thus using your position of leadership to coerce others.
What I have seen in this political race is disgusting to me. Men who questions other believers heart for Jesus if they vote in a way that they disagree with. Shame on you, and you don’t have the mind of Christ when you do such a henious thing. Once again voice your opinion, but when you call another Christian’s love for Jesus questionable because of their vote, you my friend have lost the right to Shepherd God’s people! Plain and simple. I have no fear of saying such a thing. Blog or face to face. My phone number and email is also available if you like to discuss this on a one on one basis.
My heart is heavy. Both those who shepherd and are democrats and those who shepherd and are Republicans have lost their kingdom focus and have endorsed the ways of the world. I have heard radio programs full of sensationalism. Men who teach at seminaries and pastor large denominational churches have called Obama “Marxist” and a “Socialist”. Maybe he has an over zealous on government involvement on social issues, but “Socialist” or “Marxist” is slander, it is defamation and a gross misrepresentation of this man’s policies. I agree that the governments role in many areas should be very limited; however, I see the same men calling Obama a “socialist” have no problem with the government having a say in who should marry and what should be taught in schools! Shame on you.
The Churches role is to be salt and light, and focus on the kingdom of God by doing what we are called to do both individually and corporately. I believe most of government should rest within the state. So if gays like to get married, allow them to go to which ever state they like and fight the political system. Are we to retreat from that state if so, heck no, what a great mission field. I remember reading through Acts and Paul comes to this place that is full of witchcraft, temple prostitution, false gods, wickedness on every corner, as he spends time there, people come and bring their books and burn them to show their allegiance to Christ.
Why don’t we have that type of zeal anymore? We now need a specific party to assist us in bringing the kingdom to this world? HOGWASH, HOGWASH, HOGWASH! We have exchanged the Spirit of Christ for politics. I heard a specific leader in some popular churches out West (they are a national family of churches) say “I don’t know how anybody can vote for Obama, if they do so, don’t they know they will be ushering in the Anti-christ”. HOGWASH. This is manipulation and sensationalism at its best, there is no hermeneutic that one can employ to come to such a conclusion, other than the hermeneutic of sensationalism. That is garbage! And my heart is heavy for anyone in those churches because they are sitting under leadership who should be much wiser than that!
I have heard syndicated radio shows flip flop on voting, and even invite the potential VP on to speak. One who seems to be very weak in the scriptures but is speaking on behalf of the Church of Jesus Christ? Hogwash! I have heard others post, blog after blog on abortion, the same abortion that a majority Republican Supreme Court allowed to become Law! I have seen people ignore that for 20 of the past 28 years Republican controlled the presidency. Not to mention had control of the House and Senate for a great deal of that time. Roe vs Wade wasn’t touched. I have seen a man like McCain who when first was running for Republican ticket called a RINO but now he is going to “bring this great nation back to its Christian roots”. The roots that haven’t been found yet. I have seen Mr. Bush endorse Muslims as compatible with Christianity but considered to be a “strong evangelical” actually that might be true but evangelical doesn’t necessarily mean regenerate anymore. I have seen the same president not only do nothing to Roe vs Wade but allow the Morning After Pill.
I say all of that to say this. Shame on all of you who have aligned yourself politically for the hope of this nation. Our citizenship is a heavenly one. We are aliens in a land, awaiting the return of our Master. He has set the agenda for us clearly in scripture but we have traded that agenda for a plan b, one never endorsed by our Master or His Apostles! We ignore what we are commanded to do. I remember the Jews rejected their Messiah because they wanted a political leader, one who would crush the “evil” Roman empire. But Jesus came meek and humble and only concerned about the eternal Kingdom and all those who will be there through grace.
I promise I wrote this before I read the first link below. However, below are some links that I believe will help us tremendously during this election.
Bro. Lionel,
Right now I wish I knew how to post an audio link that when clicked on when shout “AMEN!” so loud that people would be suing me to replace their computer speakers!
So, are you saying to you believe in what Obama is preaching? How would you define socialism & what does that mean to you? What do you think about a new world order? What do your biblical beliefs and morals tell you about Obama?
Lionel-
Amen.
Thinking,
1. Did I ever say that?
2. Here is what Webster says:
” 1. a theory or system of social organization in which the means of production and distribution of goods are owned and controlled collectively or by the government. 2. (in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transitionof a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles”
3.Explain what you mean about a New World Order?
4. The same thing they tell me about McCain.
To anyone interested:
One of the brothers named Jim Wallis that I’ve been following around for sometime regarding the social advocacy work he does wrote a critique of a letter that James Dobson wrote recently–and that tripped me out when I saw it. Entitled “Letter From 2012 in Obama’s America”,—as Dobson says that though their letter is a “what if?” exercise, that this “does not make it empty speculation, because every future ‘event’ described here is based on established legal and political trends that can be abundantly documentedand for the critique that Wallis/another gave on the issue ( : (http://www.sojo.net/blog/godspolitics/?p=3318) ), one can go here. For Wallis, however, Jim posted his response and buddy….was I tripped out about it…
Great post.
I’m also not an advocate of political solutions to what the bible says are fundamentally spiritual problems. Having said that, is does annoy me to see the use of a word (socialism) to create prejudice and hostility by exploiting the ignorance of masses of people. Are firefighters and policeman socialists too then? I scratch my head trying to understand how being a Christian in this country has come to be seen as being synonymous with believing in free-market capitialism. Also, I think it’s clear that neither of the candidates know Jesus personally, so any references to certain “values” or appeals to people of “faith” are nothing more than an attempt to garner votes. Like you said, in the end, only by experiencing Christ firsthand will anyone be able to gain true freedom. Laws and government cannot bring about what Jesus had to do die on the cross for.
Indeed, there is no plan b….
“…I see the same men calling Obama a “socialist” have no problem with the government having a say in who should marry and what should be taught in schools! Shame on you.”
This morning a guy in my sunday school called Obama a socialist. In another church, where my friend goes, the sunday school teacher hopes for Obama’s assissnation. I know this post is not about Obama’s presidency but abou the kingdom principles /faith based voting if I read my brother correctly. At any rate, I thought I would point this out.
Shame on us Christians pronouncing such ungodly, unedified words?
By the way, I voted already and feel soooooooooooooo good about it.
Were these men rebuked CJ? Shame, Shame!
Lionel,
I agree with almost everything you said. We are Christians first and cannot expect the government to “save” our future. That is completely God’s job. God did however command us to live in a way to stand for His truth in love. As far as the involvement of government in marriage and what is taught in schools, I think the issue there is they are the ones (government)who decided to take God out of the schools and put a stamp of approval on gay marriage. As Christians we must let them know that it is not Ok. You know and I know that in this day anyone has a right to speak EXCEPT for Born Again Believers. They want to silence us and so far we have let them. As Christians we are allowing them to do these things if we do not stand up and make our voice heard. So when we hear things from Obama like he wants the government to give every college student 4000.00 for college each year it is sticky. If government pays for your school then they decide what they will teach in public universities. So far the government for a large part teaches evolution, universalism, etc… Government should not be a part of that. Obama saying that he wants to tax the rich because it is fair ( I actually heard he and Joe Biden say that out of their own mouth) is not “justice for all”. That is a socialist idea. I know you do not like people calling him a socialist but these are the ideas that lead in that direction. It creeps in slowly. Freedom is not guaranteed. It is earned. This freedom gives me the right to worship the only true God, the God of the Bible. There are people out there that are being ugly and hateful and honestly the ones on talk radio don’t proclaim to know Christ. They are lost and therefore they are chained in thier sins. I do not expect lost people to act saved, but I do expect Christians to stand up and vote according to thier convictions not their pocket books. I agree that many political leaders have said they were Christians and then made decisions that contradicted that. The thing that concerns me is that Obama is not even trying to mask his stand on abortion. If elected president he will be able to appoint Supreme Court Justices who will fall in line with these beliefs. That is scary. If I knowingly vote for someone who believes in abortion God will not be pleased. We need to listen to what God tells us in 2 Chronicles 7:14. We need to humble ourselves, pray, turn from our wicked ways so God will hear us and heal our land.
Lionel,
I just read the letter by Huntley Brown as well as your response. I have just a couple of questions: how do you feel about say, Alan Keyes as compared to Obama? Which would you say you have more in comon with, spiritually speaking? I could be wrong but it seems as though you have already voted. Did you/would you ever consider not voting because neither man possesses the qualities you think a leader should have, or do they?
Hey Thinking,
1. Which values?
a. Providing for the poor
b. Abstaining from American Imperialism
c. Abortion
d. Against unjust wars that takes the lives of thousands
and leaves others mutilated?
e. Taking care of the widowed and orphaned
f. Against a false view that America is a Christian nation?
2. Niether has the mind of Christ, one has a liberal view of the bible the other has a fundamental view, niether of them have a clue what the Gospel is and what the responsibility of the Church is.
3. Yes, that was my initial position, but I did vote. I said I was not going to vote, but decided to not vote would be to ignore the great lengths my anscestors in the flesh with to, so that I could vote. I prayed a bunch and due to what our government (bi-partisanism) gives I did cast a vote for a candidate that could really win in this election.
Scarlett,
You say many things that I disagree with, so I will try to take them point by point.
1. We should not teach Christianity in schools unless we teach all religions. The schools are public and all religions should be equally shared as truth. To not do this would do a disservice to America.
2. Gay marriage is a religious value. We should no more prevent gays from being married than we allow for heterosexuals to get divorced. They have every right to enjoy all the benefits as those who don’t know or care to know Christ. So it is perfectly okay for them to do as they please and enjoy the liberties of America. We are not a theocracy Scarlett we are a democracy made up of regenerate and unregenrate and the unregenerate are not under any obligation to obey our moral code.
3. The last time I checked I shared the Gospel freely in my community, in another community and even lead a bible study at work. I am pretty free.
4. A socilaist idea is also the fact that most of America pushed for our government to bail out banks and AIG in order that their financial portfolio and jobs be saved. This is socialism at its finest Scarlett. If you don’t think it is fair for the government to give to the poor you should be just as upset that they just saved the wealthy from having a worthless stock portfolio and 401K. I don’t understand how anybody is disgusted with Socialism and aren’t disgusted with the socialistic bail out!
5. If you want “Christians” to vote for their convictions how about these convictions:
a. Providing for the poor
b. Abstaining from American Imperialism
c. Abortion
d. Against unjust wars that takes the lives of thousands
and leaves others mutilated?
e. Taking care of the widowed and orphaned
f. Against a false view that America is a Christian nation?
6. We had a majority conservative republican Supreme Court when we Roe vs Wade was passed. We also have had a majority “conservative” presidency for 20 of the last 28 years and the house and senate has been “conservative” for at least half of that time. Guess what? No changes in those 20 years. This is a smokescreen to keep “evangelical” Christians voting for them.
7. The verse you used was in reference to the Hebrews who were under an Old Covenant theocracy. This is not “God’s” nation no more than Kuwait is “God’s” nation. I just shared that with Thinking. To quote that verse in refernce to America is to superimpose the American experience on the bible and rob it of it’s inspiration. We have to be very careful to avoid such biblical interpretation.
Lionel,
You said:
“I said I was not going to vote, but decided to not vote would be to ignore the great lengths my anscestors in the flesh with to, so that I could vote.”
So should we be pressured in to using our right to vote because some of our anscestors went through a lot to get us this right. Should it not still be my decision whether I want to use this right or not?
You also said:
“I prayed a bunch and due to what our government (bi-partisanism) gives I did cast a vote for a candidate that could really win in this election.”
You said you prayed but then allowed your decision to be restricted by the governments bi-partisanism. So what was the purpose of prayer to begin with?
And if I prayed for direction on who to vote for and came to a different conclusion than you, would this be a case of the holy spirit lying to one of us (like you put it in another post)?
Jon,
You seem to have a vindictive tone, but I will answer your questions.
1. No “we” should not be pressued to do anything. I said “I decided” not that anyone else had to follow “MY” conviction. I am confused how you jumped to such a conclusion.
2. Read what you quoted it should answer your question.
3. Not necessarily. Maybe the Holy Spirit doesn’t care who I vote for is another option.
Finally why do you ask these questions?
So many people fail to realize that in voting for a President (or any office for that matter), we are not voting for a king or for God Himself. Christ fits both bills and is already reigning. There is nothing “Christian” perse, about a vote. Here’s the deal:
Candidate A promises x, y, and z.
Candidate B promises 1,2, and 3.
You as a voter happen to agree with x, y, and 2.
2 happens to be more important to you than both x and y.
So you vote for Candidate B.
Your Christian brother/sister agrees with z, 1 and 3.
Z happens to be more important to them than 1 and 3.
So they vote for Candidate A.
Now either of them can plug in any number of different issues into the equation and come up with a scenario whereby they believe themselves to be voting more in line with Christian values. But inherently in the voting decision itself is a realization that there is no “purity” of vote. There is no way to vote 100% conviction and at the same time guarantee that the candidate will follow through on his/her promises. Unless one is claiming prophetic gifting in voting and that one of the candidates will perfectly follow through on his/her stated platform, then how can one claim that his/her vote is more “Christian” than anothers. Sorry but this won’t fly.
If you are like me, then you believe that whoever ends up in office is placed there by God and according to His purposes. That also means, then, that if you voted the other way, then you went against the will of God and should therefore repent. Sorry Christian, but you can’t have it both ways. There is no way that the “Christian” vote can actually be opposite to the will of God, is there?
So when you vote and you believe that you can arbitrarily parse issues and then claim to have made a “Christian” vote, just know that your claiming to have authority in an action for which you have no direct biblical support.
Lionel,
I’m sorry if I came across in a vindictative tone. I did not mean to so please forgive me if I offended you in anyway.
The reason for the questions was simple curiosity. I still have not decided whether or not I will vote, for I am very kingdom minded as well. There has been a lot of pressure put on me by many using the “so many people fought and died so you would have the right to vote” line. Obviously, I’m not one to be in to pleasing men and will stand on my convictions regardless of how many are against me. Just wanted to see if you had anything to say (or someone else) that may give me another perspective on this subject. As of now, I probably will not vote or go to vote but not vote on President so that I can say that I did vote. I have found that great divide can be caused if people believe that you will not use your right to vote.
Bro LD said:
“If you are like me, then you believe that whoever ends up in office is placed there by God and according to His purposes.”
Exactly!
I don’t agree that Shepherds should voice or endorse a candidate from their pulpits becuz it’s often “viewed” as being synonymous with Jesus’ stamp of approval. How can it NOT be? If the “Man’d of God” publicly voices their choice of a particular candidate, I’d say 80-95% of the congregation will be persuaded to follow suit! Why… the “Man’d of God” can’t be wrong… can he? I just don’t think it’s wise.
I believe everyone that can vote should vote, but not through the power of persuasion, fear, coercion or this belief that Christians must vote into office those who “claim” to stand as moral police!
I Ain’t Nobody!
djdesignz,
“I believe everyone that can vote should vote,…”
Take this scenerio:
If I vote for any one person and know that it will cause some damage/problems with others on the otherside if my canidatite (that I endorsed and help get the position) wins, should I be somewhat selfish, and vote for the one that I think that I would benefit from the greatest and not worry about the damage that will result? Or not vote at all and let the damage that arises from either side come about without my direct influence?
There is bound to be damage all across this country if either side wins the election. But the voting process established in America is one of anonymity, and who you cast your vote for is protected by that. Should you choose to disclose that information is your choice.
I can’t tell you the choice you should take, only to pray and seek God about it.
Sometimes things have to be allowed to go a certain way in order to create a necessary environment in which peoples attention can be gained.
Ultimately as Believer’s our prayer should be for God’s will to be done. Unfortunately, too often we feel that God’s will and ours are synonymous. And we allow our emotions to convince us that the “god” we’ve created in OUR image is representative of the same God that sits in heaven!
God is not a God that deals with symptoms, He deals with the root!
Selah!
I Ain’t Nobody!
My issue is the fact that so many so called Christians have invested wayyyyyyy to much into this election. This election is consuming many so called believers.There are actually Christians who feel that if there candidate isn’t elected the world is going to end! Do we need an reintroduction on the sovereignty of God? How is it that Christians can trust God in certain areas but when it comes to politics it’s as if we are in control and the fate of America lies in our vote?
Instead of praying on which candidate to vote for I think we should pray that we accept God’s will for whomever he puts in the of President and keep our focus on the great commission. It is hypocritical to want the government to enforce bans on same-sex marriage and abortion but when it comes to forcing parents to provide health care for their children then that is socialism. Not that I agree with those but the fact that “Christians” are saying these and other things that Lionel mentioned in his post are appalling.
Let us not forget that we live in a fallen world and God has not called us to overthrow governments but to be ambassadors for Christ. We cannot expect unregenerate sinners to act and do things that regenerate sinners do. American is not a Christian nation and no vote will ever change that!
SB,
Wow! That good weather doing something to you?
Bro. LD,
You said, “There is nothing “Christian” perse, about a vote”. Sure, there’s nothing Christian about a vote but do you think we should apply our Christian principles in whatever we do or say? In my conversations with other black folks (who automatically assume you are voting for Obama b/c he is black), they have no reason for their vote, be it biblically based or other wise. Do we just cast aside our Christianity for a black man? I must say I’ve been dumbfounded by some of the reactions of our people, or maybe I’m just dumb!
Thinking,
Of the the list I provided which do you believe Jesus is more concerned with?
5. If you want “Christians” to vote for their convictions how about these convictions:
a. Providing for the poor
b. Abstaining from American Imperialism
c. Abortion
d. Against unjust wars that takes the lives of thousands
and leaves others mutilated?
e. Taking care of the widowed and orphaned
f. Against a false view that America is a Christian nation?
Actually Lionel, that was addressed to Bro. LD. But, are you saying the government should provide these things? Such as providing for the poor. Somehow I don’t see Jesus suggesting that the government do these things. You and I maybe, but I don’t think the government. How would you describe Jesus’ involvement in the government of his time?
Shatoyia,
A BIG AMEN!!!!!!
I would like to add that although we are not mandated to vote from the word of God, according to Romans 13:1 Paul said, “Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.”
Also the rest of Romans 13:2-7 explains why we should do this. And before that in Romans 12:9 “Let love be without hypocrisy.”
How many so called Christians are being hypocrites by bashing the candidate they don’t like. In doing all of this we are rebelling against God and His mandated word to live peacably with all men.
So vote if you feel convicted and don’t vote if you feel like it. As was stated God is soveriegn even if we don’t.
Steven
Thinking,
I am saying that has to be our logical conclusion. I find Jesus saying the government providing for the poor the same place I find Jesus saying that the government should legislate Christian morality.
Jesus wasn’t involved with Government at all other than obeying “render to Ceaser”. Jesus never engaged politics to get people to change. The woman at the well, Zachheus, The woman brought before him in prostitution, and others were engaged with the Good News never did Jesus appeal to Rome to fix moral issues.
Finally if you believe that ignoring the poor is any less “moral” than abortion, then you are gravely mistaken. So I ask again.
Which is Jesus more concerned about Abortion or Marginalized?
Brother Lawrence D.
You said: There is no way to vote 100% conviction and at the same time guarantee that the candidate will follow through on his/her promises.
Well said! What a great reminder. I can think of how the last guy I voted for said he believed in limited small government, yet he grew the federal government more than any President in the history of the United States!
Just because we are voting our conscience as it lines up with what our candidate is saying does not actually mean they intend to stick with the promises they are making. After all the goal is to just get elected.
They are all lying to us and telling each group what they want to hear.
I voted early, but I do not get overly excited about it-I definately could not even imagine myself at a rally for any of these men or women and blindly waving a sign and applauding.
I’m not emotionally involved in the outcome.
Thinking,
I definitely believe that we are Christians first and everything else second if at all. So when it comes to any decisions that we make I believe that we should be influenced, no better yet, governed by our committment to Christ.
However, it is certainly an exercise in subjectivism to attempt to address any particular platform in a manner in which 100% committment to Christ can be claimed because the issues vary so much.
One side wants to preserve the life of the unborn while at the same time refusing to sustain or provide for that very life once it is born. And they only care about unborn Americans but have no problem bombing a country where their unborn or other innocent occupants will die. That is inconsistent at best! (That’s the kindess way I know how to express it.)
The other side wants there to be the choice to end the life of the unborn but is very eager, at least in word, to provide for all living. Which itself is inconsistent since we consider the unborn to be living as well. And to top it off, I have yet to see a candidate who would fight for both!
Therefore, a vote for either side, if in fact all things remain consistent, results in a failure to fulfill some Christian duty no matter what. There is no Christian platform or party in regards to government.
Thinking, I hope I’ve answered your questions. If not, rephrase them. Perhaps I didn’t understand.
Lionel,
My point is that we, as a people, are so zealous for and quick to defend a man who is probably just telling us what we want to hear (tickling ears). Some of the same people (Christians) that rush to defend Obama wont wisper the name of Jesus in a crowded room.
As to your question, I think Jesus would be concerned with both, although children are dear to his heart. Have you ever seen photos of an aborted child? Children are dear to me, I have a six month old son who I am grateful to God for.
I believe that the thought of a man, yes a man, running this country has caused some of us to absolutely lose our minds! Social injustices should not cause this.
Thinking,
1. I have also seen those zealous for the aborted care less about the poor and marginalized
2. I have seen the same people who support pro-life in the other breath support pro-death by wanting us to kill Osama and other Muslims.
3. Yes I have saw those pictures and it is horrible, I have also seen mutulated and burned Muslim children because someone dropped a bomb in their village.
Hmmmmm, struggling with this one Bro Lionel but rather than me foolishly firing a cannon let me see if I understand you right. You said:
2. Gay marriage is a religious value. We should no more prevent gays from being married than we allow for heterosexuals to get divorced. They have every right to enjoy all the benefits as those who don’t know or care to know Christ.
Do I take it if you were the Registrar and a Gay couple wanted to get married you would go ahead and marry them because you would not want to do the land of America a “disservice?”
Cushie,
Let me ask you two questions Cushie then I will answer.
1. Do you believe we should have laws on the books that prevent two consensting adults from having sex?
2. Do you believe we should have laws on the books that say “unless for marital unfaithfulness and abuse you can’t divorce”?
Thanks for the response Bro. LD and you did answer my questions! If I understand you correctly then, both are going to deceive us so pick the best of the worst!?
I agree that there is no Christian platform but I keep coming back to the same thing in my mind, we are Christians! What do we stand for? To me, it’s one thing to believe what someone says and then be duped, it’s another to actually know were they stand and still be in support of their actions, contrary to what I know to be pleasing to God. I’m only speaking for myself here.
I appreciate you brother and I’ve enjoyed reading your responses on this site, as well as Mel’s. I know you give thought to the things you say and they challenge me at times.
Lionel
As a teacher I have been asked to teach a lesson concerning sex for consenting adults. Although the rules say children should be taught these things (with no moral restrictions) I refused. So Lionel you are the Christian registrar, a Gay couple want to marry – would you do it!
Cushie,
You didn’t answer either of my two questions.
However, because of biblical convictions I would not marry them, but niether would I allow a Witch to teach my sunday school or a Muslim to lead worship at my church. However, they have the right to do what they like outside of my church.
Does that answer your question. I am talking public policy. I am against restrictions on consenting adults to have sex, I am also against a law that tells people they should remain married.
Thinking, can I ask you a couple questions?
Was George W. Bush’s Presidential victories and past 8 years in office an event according to God’s purposes?
Would you say that Evangelicals overwhelmingly supported his moral platform with regard to the family and abortion? So much so that they put him over the top in the 2004 election?
I Ain’t Nobody!
Lionel
You have answered my question. I have done quite a bit of reading on this issue of state/church overlap blah, blah and I still struggle to get a clear view.
Out of curiosity, you mention specifically sex and consenting adults and divorce. Are these given just as examples or are you against laws that restrict any moral code eg pedophilia.
BTW Trust me Bro, Cushie has moved on, I’m seriously exploring and reflecting on many issues – not looking for a fight!!!
Thinking,
Just as a correction. My conclusion would read more like:
“Both are going to deceive us so picking either is a compromise and no more ‘Christian’ than picking the other.”
For me, the best Christian response is always 100% correct. That policy does not work in politics.
I feel you on being duped versus going in with your eyes wide open. But in the case of the one who supports that which is contrary to what would please God, does that person stand for anything that does please God? And does the other person stand for anything that doesn’t please God? There’s just no excaping voting for someone who has an issue with which we would believe God to disagree.
In the end, the Christian’s responsibility is to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ while being His hands and feet for those who are in need.
Nope,
Anything done against a persons will is illegal. Rape, Murder, Stealing, things of that nature. I believe that disrupts the safety and health of others and leads to chaos. However, homosexuality has never done any such thing. Rome flourished quite well and homosexuality and sexual immorality were rampant. I believe that is a religious moral decision. I am also against legislating polygamy but that is a different discussion.
Does that answer your question? By the way this is coffee and doughnut tone my friend, not popcorn and front row seat
Cushie,
I think he said “consenting adults” brother.
Hear ya loud n clear!!! Something for me to chew on but my gut reaction is that you’re wrong. I’ll research.
BTW Glad this is the coffee and doughnut tone, Cos I’ve seen you on the full course and it was heavy – but ol’ Cushie can still handle ya
Lionel,
LOL, Yeah it’s the weather and a good dose of reformed theology!
Lionel,
Thought provoking.
True, we live in a sinful world, and are definitely called to not put our hope in it. Politicians make promises and fail to keep them. Claim Christ out of convenience, but dont know Him. And the political arena is not the one God is calling the church to transform, but the hearts of individuals through the preaching of the gospel. But are the true shepherds called to point out what they believe to be that which they believe based upon biblical principals, the best options in a presidential candidate/election? Do they not have biblical authority to do so?
It is definitely true that God is still on the throne and soveriegn! HE will accomplish His purpose regardless of who is Prez. But in His soveriegnty, He allows man the opportunity to participate in the functioning of His creation and even gives the him responsibility to be a good steward. No, God doesnt need us for anything! Never has and never will! HE could preach the gospel from heaven if He so desired, but that is not the way He chose to. Likewise, we have a system of government in place in America where we can choose prez, laws, ordinances, vote for the good. Does He expect the same from us here?
While Jesus did not give government the authority to legislate Christian morals, He does have a role for government. I understand the role for human government ordained by God is given in Rom 13 as promote the good, prohibit the bad, and punish the evil. Certainly laws and legislation will never get man to change. But thats not Gods role for government. We know that true change only comes from within having the Spirit of God renew your mind. But for those who are voting, does one candidate appear, or have made statements (which very well might turn out to be a lie once elected) or past record indicate policy that is “less good” or “more bad” in this election?
So given the opportunity to effect public policy for the good as a Christian, its one I believe is in keeping with our duty to be salt and light. And although there is nothing inherently “Christian” in a vote, doing good is.
So I say to all, vote however your conscience leads you. (hopefully its informed) But vote! There is more at stake then who sits in the white house. And though God is soveriegn, He was soveriegn during slavery too! And I dont think any of us would just sit back and watch that happen without fighting and telling others to do the same!
With all that said, its still a matter of liberty, and one we should not judge our brothers and sisters over, so thank you for pointing out where as Christians we can lose our focus on the eternal in light of the present.
May God continue to give us the grace to serve Him faithfully until Christ returns!
Lionel,
Did I just read you quoted as saying gay marriage is of religious value? Is it your view that ethically speaking promoting of homosexuality is good? Would you teach your children that at an appropriate age?
Hey Servant,
1. Yes.
2. Neither good or bad.
3. Nope he will understand that such lifestyles are sin; however, so is lying, stealing, divorce, fornication, gossip, prejudice, stereotyping, unforgivenss, impatience, judgmentalness, lust, selfishness, hoarding of ones goods, ignoring the poor and widow. If none of these are laws (other than stealing) neither should homosexuality be a law.
Let me ask you.
1. Do you believe God looks at homosexuality as more sinful than any other sin? If so I got a post for you to read.
2. Do you believe there should be laws preventing heterosexuals to get divorced because they “fell out of love”
3. Do you believe there should be laws on the book against fornication, gossip and the other sins I listed? Why or why not?
Servant of the King,
I have a few questions for you based on the following statement:
“So given the opportunity to effect public policy for the good as a Christian, its one I believe is in keeping with our duty to be salt and light”
1. Concerning Christ’ recorded words in Matthew 5:13-15, is it your contention that He had political involvement in mind when He made the statements?
2. If so, then why do you believe that men are not glorifying our “Father who is in heaven” for all of the Christian involvement? It is in fact Christ’ stated purpose for our “good works”.
3. Was the Apostle Paul aware of the political element of being salt and light?
4. If so, then how come he spent his time before the many royal courts and magistrates proclaiming the gospel and not trying to affect national change?
I have heard many Christians use the “salt and light” argument as a way to promote and encourage voting, picketing Planned Parenthood, writing letters to political figures, etc. But I don’t think that it is what Christ had in mind. I’d love to know your thoughts. Again, was it in the mind of Christ when He spoke it?
Lionel,
1. I do not believe that homosexuality is “more sinful” than other sins, as I believe that sin is sin. But I do believe that some things are more henious in Gods eyes than others, and that looking at the OT as an example, the punishment for some crimes was greater then others. NT believers are not bound by them, nor is America a nation that is a theocracy, but they serve as an example for ethical behavior and definitely reveal the mind of God. Would love to read the post you referenced nonetheless.
I believe homosexuality goes against the natural created order and is morally wrong, not amoral or nuetral. Just like I believe we should have laws prohibiting beastiality. Or incest. From the standpoint of governing society, I believe that homosexuality is ethically problematic.
I read your comment earlier regarding Rome and how it functioned as a society with homosexuality, however, my question would be does that mean it is what is best for society? Are the ethics or morality of society determined by what “works”, or by “how things are” or is there a transcendent law that we should seek to govern our behaviour? (that is, aside from the fact that we are Christians, but as members of the earthly kingdom arguing for civil justice to the unregenerate)
2. I also believe that laws curtailing divorce are good in a society. I believe that the establishment and maintaining of the family structure is an important one in a society and discouraging the breakdown of such is good. And the sacredness of marriage should not be trivialized. Same principles as in my previous argument.
3. I believe that our laws should reflect the states obligation to encourage moral good, and discourage moral wrongs, but can not criminalize all behavior.
The sins you listed, “lying, stealing, divorce, fornication, gossip, prejudice, stereotyping, unforgivenss, impatience, judgmentalness, lust, selfishness, hoarding of ones goods, ignoring the poor and widow” should be discouraged by society and our laws should reflect that. And, some form of some of those sins are in fact illegal. Lying under oath is perjury. Divorce was not always allowable under law for “any reason whatsoever”. Stereotyping when it comes to hiring practices of companies based upon race or religious preferences is legislated. However as a matter of practicality, it would be very difficult to pass laws governing every sin, and probably not prudent in every matter. Im not advocating “legislating Christianity”, but the laws of a people must seek to be rooted in something more then “what feels good to me” or “everyone doing what seems right in their own eyes”. I dont think its safe, nor good to say that because it doesnt hurt someone, its good or legitimate acceptable behaviour.
Im curious about your religious value comment on homosexuality, care to eloborate or have you in a previous post?
Lionel
I have reflected today and my conclusion is 110% as
ServantoftheKing.
BLD you said:
If so, then how come he spent his time before the many royal courts and magistrates proclaiming the gospel and not trying to affect national change
Should John the Baptist apologise to King Herod?
Bro. Lawrence,
Point 1 and 2 well taken. While it was probably not the best scripture to quote to support my argument for Christian participation in civics, I do believe there is a broader general scriptural principal that can be applied from others. No, I do not think our Lord had political involvement in mind when He said that (but being omniscient He knew all things, including future governmental structures). I suppose in that regard I am using that scripture out of context, and probably should have used other scriptural reference. So, I agree with you that is not the intent of that passage.
3. The Apostle Paul did seek to preach the gospel above all else. True, he didnt seek national change, but real change of individuals from the inside out, not the opposite. However, I do feel that God does call us to seek that which is good, and perform good works in society in addition to the great commission. And I believe that we are saved unto good works as Paul states in Ephesians. And those are not just good works in the salvific or religious sense. Granted ultimately, its the preaching of the gospel that does the “most good”, but there is common good that Christians can and should do. Good works in keeping with our Lords command to “love thy neighbor as thyself”, and other commands throughout the NT with regards to others. My argument here is that given the opportunity, as the civic law permits us to legally and lawfully effect ceasars policy, we should seek to do so. In our form of government, caesar invites us to have a say as a part of rendering unto caesar. We have no evidence that Paul if given the opportunity, would not have stood against inequity (although that was not his calling, nor Gods primary mission for the church) or if given the chance to vote would have not been concerned with it. I know thats an argument from silence but I think it can be applied as Paul did all he could to win those to the kingdom. Became all things to all men so that by all means he might save some. What better way for a Christian to show their faith to the world in action then by standing for truth and justice. Voting for good is just that. That is a part of our witness I believe. Maybe not salt and light in the sense of the sermon on the mount, but a testimony of who we belong to and as righteous behaviour.
I agree with you that there is no Christian party or platform and to wade through the dilemma of who is lying the least or what is Gods will can be challenging for thinking Christians. Certainly all political candidates will have policy that is not in keeping with what pleases God, spoken or not. But I believe there are issues that weigh heavier then others. Agree or not?
Curious to know, of the major views (or your own personal) of the church involvement in government, what would you say you hold?
Bro. Cushie,
I’m not sure how John the Baptist’s action before King Herod are relative. As far as you understand the interaction, would you say that John the Baptist was challenging Herod’s personal conduct (in having his brother Phillip’s wife) as a politician or as a man before God? Was John’s concern spiritual or governmental?
In my understanding of the history of that time, not many people were happy with a lot of Herod’s behavior, including the Jews and the Romans. An interesting book on the subject is N.T. History by F.F. Bruce published by Double Day Galilee Press. But I don’t believe that John was concerned so far as the national morality.
Amen, brother. I’ve had the same disappointments and blogged about it on my own site. If you have the time and inclination, go and have a look. It’s http://simplemann.net. Incidentally, I’ve had you linked in my blog roll since I came across your site a few months back, and I really like this site.
I must say that the two things that have disappointed me the most in the lead-up to this election are:
1) The tactics of Satan have been adopted by the “saints” in an effort to deceive and manipulate people to get the outcome that they desire. This is not and has never been the way of our Sovereign Lord.
2) Christians who seem to have completely forgotten that God is sovereign, *even* if the election does not turn out the way they want.
Quite honestly, I don’t care who wins this election, but I think there are a lot of Christians have lost already. Not because of whoever wins or because of who they vote for, but because they have compromised the basic principles of their faith by the vain-glorious way that they have sold themselves out to “the world”. How can any confessing Christian make an election in the United States government more important than the election of God (though I’m sure everyone who has will completely deny it), or to act as if the most effective means for curing the sin problem in people’s hearts is through a political (as opposed to a Biblical) modus operandi!?
And I am sick, sick, sick of the issue of abortion being used to manipulate the masses of believers the way that it is. It doesn’t matter who is in the White House, abortion is not going away. Why? Because it is the fruit and not the root of our sick, sinful, and selfish society. While it may ease your conscience to vote on this one issue above all others, it will change NOTHING because THE LAW has NEVER been an effective agent of change when it comes to matters of SIN. Until we, as Christians, stop trying to save the sinners who have yet to be born through the means of the law–and start trying to save the sinners who need to be born *again* through the means of grace–there IS NO HOPE. Wake up! It’s time for us to stop relying on our government to fix the problems with our hearts, and start putting our faith back in the gospel as an effective agent for change. The gospel of our Lord is the ONLY way to affect that kind of change. Jesus IS the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE.
God bless America? God, bring us to repentance!
Peace & Blessings,
Simple Mann
Servant of the King,
Thank you for your brotherly response.
As far as your question, I don’t believe that the Church collectively has any role in government. I believe that individuals must follow the dictates of their own conscience and hopefully it is well informed. However, I do find this statement troubling:
” What better way for a Christian to show their faith to the world in action then by standing for truth and justice. Voting for good is just that. That is a part of our witness I believe. Maybe not salt and light in the sense of the sermon on the mount, but a testimony of who we belong to and as righteous behaviour.”
Perhaps there is no better way to show our faith to the world in action than by standing for the truth. (Although, I would argue that showing love to our neighbor is much more powerful and more biblically consistent. It’s easier to convince someone of the truth that you believe when that person is confident that you love them dearly.) But if we’ve come to believe that voting is the best expression of that stand, then we’re further away from the gospel than I thought.
John the Baptist was still operating under the Old Covenant as it was still in force up until Christ’s death, burial, ressurection and the outpouring of the Spirit at Pentecost when teh New Covenantw as ushered in-prior to that the Theocratic Government of National Israel, The Old Law and the Old Covenant was still in place.
Now there is no individual nation that is God’s nation, now God is building a Kingdom of Believer priests from all nations, tribes and tongues whose behaviour is being sanctified by the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit under the New Covenant Law of Christ.
So pointing to Johns Old Covenant ministry really does not have any bearing on how the government and laws are structured in America.
SOK,
I appreciate the dialogue. I will answer your questions (things that have question marks) and maybe make a few comments.
1. All Sin goes against the natural order. Gossip is no more “natural” as Homosexuality. I still have to ask do you think we should have laws on the book against adultrey? If so what should be the fine? 2 years? 1 year? Probation? $200 ticket? You can’t have it both ways. Adultrey is just as unnatural ask the spouse that was cheated on.
2. I believe it was neutral for the society from a legal/public standpoint. Morally it is wrong, but again legislating morality is something I am 100% against unless it harms public good. I think Homosexuality doesn’t effect me one way or the other.
3. Moral good from who’s perspective? The Athiest or the Christian? Which morality should be the norm?
4. I don’t believe that there is a complete transcendant law that should govern our behavior. Because that transcedant law would be subjective, one thing to me and something else to another. Who has the RIGHT to dictate that?
5. I believe it doesn’t cause public or private harm then let the States decide by the people.
6. I believe Homosexuality to be a sin, just like every other sin. In Proverbs God calls many things sin and even an abomination. I believe to be a homosexual and a Christian is an oxymoron, just as I believe to be a gossiper and backbiter, and greedy hoarder and a Christian is an oxymoron. I hold to a strong view of Lordship Salvation due to the fact I uphold New Covenant Theology and the gurantee of a New Heart that will love God and have a new disposition against sin. But here is something I wrote about a month ago
http://blackandreformedministries.com/2008/10/01/letsssssssspllllaaaaaaaayyyyyy-the-abomination-game/
Bro. Lawrence,
Amen. We should show our love in many ways. My comment “what better way” was not to be inclusive of all that a Christian should do, nor is it the best way (that was hyperbole) only one that can be powerful as a witness. I believe biblical faith does, as James says. Im not divorcing the two. Love in truth. My thoughts go back to the time when folk like you and I didnt have the opportunity to vote because of our skin color, or were abused, brutally enslaved, and on. When the excuse of not getting involved under the guise of Christs name to help the dissenfranchised by those who could help. I just believe there are a plethora of things we can do to truly be neighborly. For me, standing for the rights of others is among them. It has nothing to do with the gospel per se, but everything to do with standing for righteousness. But Im not advocating a social gospel, nor works righteousness before God. But our faith is played out in the real complex world, in real complex circumstances that there will always be differences as to expression of what we hold to be true.
Interesting comment on the role of the Christian in the political sphere. It was meant to be answered with regards to individuals, not corporately so I appreciate your reply. Obviously, it is one that the church, or Christians, have wrestled with for some time. And still do. But your humility in the matter is evident and that is appreciated.
Hotbed topics for sure right now! But it is good to see that honest, sincere brothers in Christ can express themselves in open dialogue agree or disagree, without being hurtful and most importantly realize Who it is that is on the throne!
To Him be the glory in this election and in all things!
Lionel,
Brotha you are something else! (and I mean that in a good way) I loved the post about the respectable sins. A message that is sorely needed in any time for sure.
I suspect that if we are to get into our differences of opinion with regards to ethics and morals, it will be a lengthy one, because even apart from Gods regenerative work, all men have a conscience, a sense of “right” and “wrong”. But I will endulge breifly.
1. Punishment for adultery should be capital! Line em all up and shoot em on the spot! Sorry, I had to inject some humor here. I cant say that there should be a penal assesment for adultery, just that there should be laws to promote good as a whole. Im not saying I have all the answers, nor that there are any laws that can make a person not commit adultery, homosexuality, or any other sin or crime. Surely sin is at the root of the problem, not the absence of laws and only God can solve that problem. But the things we APPROVE as a people is a barometer of where we are as a society as a whole.
2. There is a danger in the “if it doesnt effect me” ethic. I can give examples, that Im sure you would agree with.
3. I think you misunderstand me when I say transcendent laws. Transcendency is not subjective, but objective. While you are right that there is no “complete” list of transcendent laws, or at least one that is completely agreed upon, but for the most part, generally speaking there are laws of right and wrong that are a part of every human conscience that all men will agree if they are honest. Moral absolutes (like one you stated) that apply to all. Atheist, Jew, Christian, or otherwise. Otherwise, we get into moral relatavism and that is a slippery slope that has a horrible conclusion, with no morality at all and complete chaos and anarchy.