I am reading “Paul’s Idea of Community” by Robert Banks on page 53. He quotes 1 Corinthians 1:4-8:
4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
He then say:
This description has to do with the fundamental attitudes: patience, humility, tolerance, kindness, resilience, generosity, confidence, perseverance, optimism. Both here and elsewhere these attitudes detail not so much individual’s relationship to God as the interaction between Christian brothers and sisters. These attitudes should accompany their communication with one another and should also lead them into a real depth of relationship with one another.
If we can be honest. We live in an ever growing autonomous culture. America has an “I” and a “me” not to mention it starts with an “a”. I believe this is an ever growing mindset in the church as well. People would rather read the bible by themselves, pray by themselves, be accountable to themselves, and then go to “church” together. This has effected my greatly.
I think I would be a really good Christian if it were not for other Christians getting in my way all the time. They are like an obstacle course. Needy, impatient, critical, judgmental, gossipy, selfish, worrisome, they complain, they mistreat one another, they ignore one another needs, they would rather point a finger than carry a burden. Oh did I mention “they” is really me. The fundamental issue is one of love. I love Jesus more than I love Christians and I am starting to figure out that this is a false dichotomy. I can get along with Jesus just fine and I would rather spend more time with Him than with others. Me and Jesus understand each other. He doesn’t gossip about me, He doesn’t mistreat me, He doesn’t take my grace for granted. He meets my need, He asks for little in return, He is judgmental, He doesn’t ignore me I can go to Him anytime of the day, when I sin He doesn’t point the finger. When I have a burden He helps me carry it. Shoot! Why waste my time with Christians when I can just spend more time with Christ. He is a great bible study partner, because He knows all the answers, He is a great prayer partner, He says all the right things and never stumbles over His words, He knows exactly what I am thinking. Me and Jesus get along just fine! Just not so much with Christians.
There is only one problem. He elected the “Church”, redeemed the “Church”, and seals the “Church” made up of individuals. So we are His body and the way I love His body is the way I love Him. Christians and Christ are not mutually exclusive! I thought think I was taught this enough, or I just ignored it. Yeah I read it, but that was by myself and anyway Jesus understands that I would rather spend more time with Him anyway right? Again love is the issue. Christianity is a corporate work that can never be isolated. How we relate to other believers is a direct reflection of what we think about God. Our blatant disregard for other Christians and the “one anothers” we are to fulfill as imperatives is a direct reflection of what we really think about what Jesus accomplished on the cross.
If other Christians are in our way, it is because we don’t understand the work of the Cross and what exactly Jesus accomplished and who exactly Jesus redeemed. He redeemed an us just as much as He redeemed an I if not more. Jesus had the church on His heart which is a collection of individuals. God foreknew the “Church”, the Spirit seals the “Church”. We can’t understand our relationship with Jesus without understanding our relationship, and the obligations that come with this relationship, with other redeemed individuals.
So once we understand that God not only reconciles us to Himself by Christ but in like manner He reconciles us to other Christians JUST AS MUCH. Our hearts, motives, and actions toward other believers is heightened. And the way we talk serve, and commit to one another is illuminated. I believe this is key. So now when I gossip I am gossiping about Christ, when I am unkind I am unkind to Christ, when I am impatient, unloving, non-gentle, rude, and unforgiving I am doing the same to Christ. Christ and the Christian is inseparable. This is a package deal. When I serve another Christian I am serving Christ, when I am loving, sacrificial, I refuse to gossip, I refuse to ignore, I am patient, gentle, kind and forgiving, I am doing the same to Christ.
I really want us to think about this. Whatever we do to another believer we do to Christ. We can’t say we love Christ and dislike a brother. The two are joined at the hip. That is why love is the “perfect bond of unity” as Colossians says. When we put on Christ (which is another imperative) as believers we have obligations to fulfill. So the next time you think a Christian is in the way and you want to push him/her aside, you best realize that you pushing Christ to the side. Whatever you do to His bride or say of His bride you do and say of Him!
Question for anyone.
Does the bible teache that in order to be in Christ you must believe in a literal eternal hell fire?
If so, can you please back that up with scripture?
The reason I ask this question on this particular post is because some people have told me that I’m not apart of the Body of Christ and therefore not saved simply because I don’t currently believe in a literal everlasting hell fire to torture/punish those who don’t receive Christ in this age.
I believe that we would probably all agree that no one can come to the Father unless he/she is drawn to God through Christ. Once one is drawn and received the testimony of what Christ has accomplished for them on the cross, then that person has the obligation to receive God’s grace through faith. Once one has confessed (acknowledged the lordship of Christ and His saving grace)and repented (turning away from sin) he/she must continue to abide in Christ (the vine). This is done by feeding off of Christ (feeding off of His word and acting out on it – being led by the spirit/word). Their must first be a spiritual death (which I believe is the second death) in order to receive spiritual life (second birth). This is what water baptism symbolizes (death to the old man and rising anew in Christ). These are what I consider to be essential truths regarding the message of salvation.
Some Pentecostals believe that you must speak in tongues as evidence that you are really saved and filled with the Holy Spirit.Or like some who believe that you must pay tithes to be saved. I had a conversation with one of my uncles, who is a COGIC Superintendent (maybe a bishop now) here in Atlanta, about the validity of teaching that you are commanded to give tithes. He told me that you could not be saved if you didn’t pay tithes. His rational was that the bible says that no thief will enter the kingdom of God and that you are robbing God if you do not pay your tithes.
So how do we determine (biblically) who would be considered apart of the Body of Christ?
What do you base your judgments on?
Bro. Lionel,
I’m sure glad you “lied” about not writing anymore, LOL!!! We discussed the “one another’s” last night at bible study. We didn’t get past 5 of the verses before we were deep in discussion over the practical outworking of these verses. Here’s one thought the came up:
“There have been times when we’ve gone through trials and we felt all alone. We even wondered where God was in all of this. But if there would have been a true ‘burden bearers’ ministry amongst us, would we ever have questioned where God was? NO! We would have seen Him in those who came alongside us to help/love us through the rough time.”
At this point we were just about at Galatians 6 and we had to stop. If it weren’t for the fact that there were some children there who had to go to school the next day, we wouldn’t have. People are hungry for this stuff. They want to be intimate with God and are missing the opportunity so often because He is in their brother or sister right next to them, and neither of them realize it.
Jon,
I’ve only seen one other person or group of people who cried out so much for acceptance all while professing themselves to be completely correct in their beliefs in spite of the biblical evidence staring them right in the face. Do you know what group I’m talking about? The biblical evidence is stacked against their beliefs but they are convinced that God is okay with them anyway. They even have a parade in many cities every year to prove it. My question for you and them is the same. If you are so sure you are right, then why do you care if others think you are wrong? Why do you want an acceptance from those who think you are anti-biblical?
Bro. Lawrence D.,
It is not so much as me needing some type of acceptance from you or from any others that may read my comment, the bigger purpose is for all to get a greater understanding of the gospel message. There are so many differing opinions as to how one can be saved and thus included in the Body of Christ that I thought this might be good place to discuss (biblically) what it takes to be apart of the Body of Christ so believers will not continue to get stuck in various theological positions that are not based on the Word. I have yet to find any scriptues that require one to believe in a literal hell in order to receive Christ.
Can you please show me?
Jon,
Let me ask must we believe in a literal “virgin birth”? I am curious on who far you will take this. What about the Old Testament narratives? Do we have to believe in a literal Red Sea? Or a literal Ark? Or even a literal Moses?
Lionel,
Let’s go to the scriptures and find out!
Rom 10:8-9
“The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”[e](that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
So no, one does not have to believe in the things that you mentioned in order to be saved. However, as one continues seeking Christ diligently, they will hopefully come to realizing that the complete Word (in its original form) is infallible and is to be trusted in the areas you’ve mentioned. This is apart of growing into maturity in the things of God. For Christ is the Word manifested in flesh. This is why we are commanded to feed off of Christ’s flesh (not literally of course). Feeding off of His flesh means feeding off of the Word. I used to think that the King James version of the Bible was to be trusted as God’s Word. However, as I continued to grow in the things of Christ I eventually came to realize that this particular translation is not infallible because it is only one of the various translations (by man) of God’s infallible Word.
Are you now becoming guilty of adding to the gospel message concerning what it takes to be intially saved?
Again, please provide scriptures that state we need to believe in certain things in addition to the requirements set out in Romans 10:9-10 in order to be saved.
Jon, how do you perceive instances like the one where Jesus refers to Isaiah 66, (“where the worm never dies, and the fire is never quenched…”) Is the fire Jesus talks about merely metaphorical? Just curious….
Excellent post Lionel, it’s so easy to forget that we are to show love to one another as the family of God first. If we can’t love one another, then how is the love of God in us?
A prickly topic for me at the moment, after watching that video of Mark Driscoll you posted in an earlier post. Let’s just say I’m not feeling a lot of love for the guy at the moment… (In fact, I’ve wrestled with that dude and his teachings for years…) I already commented on the stay-at-home-dad issue there, so I won’t get into it again. Needless to say, he pretty much embodies the hierarchical, patriarchal, intellectual-elitist church mindset that I despise. Yet, I’m supposed to love him, because Christ loves him.
Dang, don’t you hate it when you read several different posts together in one sitting, and God justs ties them together in a way that you’d really rather not hear?
Jon,
Do you believe Romans 10:8-10 to be a prescription on who to get saved?
You also say something fascinating. I would believe that as you matured you would come to realize that Hell is eternal but you seem to go in a different direction. The Holy Spirit is lying to one of us. If through earnest prayer and fellowship you believe that Hell is a temporary abode and through prayer and fellowship I belive it to be eternal, something is wrong.
However, A few weeks back I wouldn’t call you a brother. I don’t know about that anymore. You may be right, to believe in an eternal hell may not be a prerequsite and for that I apologize. I can’t come to any clear evidence as you say. Though I believe it is quite detrimental.
Daniel,
(”where the worm never dies, and the fire is never quenched…”) Is the fire Jesus talks about merely metaphorical?
Yes, it is figurative of God being a consuming fire that destroys all sin/flesh/carnality/disobedience. The same fire tries us, baptizes us, and refines us in this age and in the age to come (judgment) all others will be baptized into this same (figurative) fire. The expression the worm never dies, and the fire is never quenched, is dealing with the fact that nothing and no one can stop God’s process of refining by fire. The fire will not be quenched unto all carnality/sin/rebellion has be destroyed in the individual. This is why Jesus referred to the valley of Hinnom (ghenna fire – which has been mistranslated hell in some translations). This was a place outside of Jeresulam where all of the waste was dumped and burned. Jesus uses this literal waste dump place to describe what will happen to all as it relates to God’s fire consuming all waste in each individual.
Hmmmmmm, if the fire is what purifies us from sin, then how does the cross fit in?…….
Also, you said “The fire will not be quenched unto all carnality/sin/rebellion has been destroyed in the individual”. Yet, does that not become a big problem if Jesus, (and the verse in Isaiah) says that the fire is never quenched…?
Actually, Jesus references that verse when contrasting entering the Kingdom, vs. being thrown into hell…
“It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where
‘their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’”
Yes, God is an all-consuming fire, but you seem to think there is no sense of finality when it comes to the afterlife. The whole point of using Gehenna as a metaphor for what happens to those who do not enter the Kingdom, is to describe that those who are not made new through the blood of Christ will forever feel the scalding pain of God’s holiness against their unrepent souls. To those who surrender to God’s judgement against our sin, and put our faith in Christ’s sacrefice on our behalf, the fire of God’s spirit actually gives life, purifies us, as we live in the light. To those who reject that they are sinful in God’s sight, and their need for Christ to atone for them, the fire of God’s spirit is an agonizing intrusion, forever revealing the stain of sin, indeed something tortuous and horrible. So, you are correct in a sense, but the question of whether a person has entered in the Kingdom of God or not, has drastic consequences as to how an individual is affected by the all-consuming fire that is the Eternal God….
Daniel,
You said in reference to those who do not turn to Christ in this present age (aion):
“forever revealing the stain of sin,”
How can this be when sin and death are to be destroyed?
When then will all knees bow and every tongue confess Christ?
The apparant problems arise when you base your thelogy on mistranslated words eternal/everlasting, forever in some bible translations which are suppose to be a translation of aion(eon) and its adjective form aionios which modifies the root noun which means age (time span). The duration of the age being contigent upon the context of the scriptures it is used in.
I am not going to deal with this issue in detail again. Please refer to this previous post discussion:
http://blackandreformedministries.com/2008/08/17/a-redfinition-of-gods-love-the-grace-extreme/
Lionel,
You said:
“I would believe that as you matured you would come to realize that Hell is eternal but you seem to go in a different direction. The Holy Spirit is lying to one of us. If through earnest prayer and fellowship you believe that Hell is a temporary abode and through prayer and fellowship I belive it to be eternal, something is wrong.”
You can’t really believe this can you when you consider the various differences on many other subjects of the Word than many sincere Christians have. This is not a question of the Holy Spirit lying to one but of Christians maturing at different rates on different subjects as they continue to study. Consider Rom 14 that deals with this issue of differences in understanding on non essential things.
I believe I have given you adequate basis on which my CURRENT understanding relies on. I have tried to be consistent in my use of word meanings from the orignal languages. The inconsistencies arise when you and others change word definitions to fit a particular thelogical assumption. You seem to rely to heavily on man’s commentary and not on correct biblical study as it relates to the whole of scripture. I have shown where many theologians disagree with the way the King James and some other translations handle the hebrew word olam and greek equiliavent aion (aionios). You and others keep stating the obvious (that eternal/everlasting means continuing forever). However, you fail to address the obvious problems that arise in scripture when you CONSISTENTLY translate olam/aion or aionios to mean forever/eternal/everlasting.
The words “forever/everlasting” are used many times in the old and new testament in connection with things that ARE ALERADY ENDED or are TEMPORARY! Why not be more consistent in our translations and meanings of words.
Forever and ever is applied to the hosts of heaven, or the sun, moon, and stars: to a writing contained in a book; to the smoke that went up from the burning land of Idumea; and to the time the Jews were to dwell in Judea.
“Everlasting”is applied to God’s covenant with the Jews; to the priesthood of Aaron; to the statutes of Moses; to the time the Jews were to possess the land of Canaan; to the mountains and hills; and to the doors of the Jewish temple.The word forever is applied to the duration of man’s earthly existence; to the time a child was to abide in the temple; to the continuance of Gehazi’s leprosy; to the duration of the life of David; to the duration of a king’s life; to the duration of the earth; to the time the Jews were to possess the land of Canaan; to the time they were to dwell in Jerusalem; to the time a servant was to abide with his master; to the time Jerusalem was to remain a city; to the duration of the Jewish temple; to the laws and ordinances of Moses; to the time David was to be king over Israel; to the throne of Solomon; to the stones that were set up at Jordan; to the time the righteous were to inhabit the earth; and to the time Jonah was in the
fish’s belly.
And yet, the land of Cannan, the Jews’ “everlasting possession,” has passed from their hand; the convenant of circumcision, an “everlasting covenant” was abolished almost two thousand years ago; the Jewish atonement, an everlasting statute, is abrogated by the atonement of Christ; David was never to want a man to sit on Israel’s throne. This aionian line of succession was long ago broken.
There is a greek word that means everlasting (aiodios). If God wanted to convey the since of everlasting to a passage why would He not use the greek word that literally means it? Why use a word (noun or adjective) that literally means some undefined time span?
“How can this be when sin and death are to be destroyed?
When then will all knees bow and every tongue confess Christ?”
There is a distinciton between earthly, physical death, and everlasting death. (something that is somewhat contradictory to our modern scientific minds) That verse in Isaiah 66 makes no sense in this world, because here, fire eventually consumes all the fuel, and worms eventually eat the whole decomposed body. A place where these things are never completed, but instead somehow continue on forever, in a state of eternal decomposition, eternal burning, eternal dying, is indeed a terrifying thing to imagine. Perhaps that is why you are so loathe to accept it, I certainly can sympathize with that. It is certainly not an easy to swallow truth. The fact that every knee will bow, does not mean that every knee will bow willingly. Even the demons will bow and confess, but they will never be part of God’s kingdom again….
Okay Jon, before you respond again, I have now gone back and reviewed the previous discussion that you made a link for. Now that the scroll button on my mouse is nearly broken from scanning over the huge amounts of round-and-round debates over this same topic, I think we can say that the horse you continue to beat is officially dead. I’m certainly not going to improve upon the vast amounts of biblical responses that have already been offered you. The previous comments of Bro. Lawrence D make much more sense now. You seem to have absorbed absolutely nothing from anyone after all that discussion, except an appetite for more opportunities to make the same arguments over and over again. I don’t really see what your aim is. What are hoping to accomplish here? I understand that there are disagreements between brothers in Christ, but this is ridiculous. I would echo Lionel’s earlier advice to go and spend some time in prayer about whether or not to continue to engage in this quest to show everyone how their entire concept of the gospel is twisted based on their misunderstanding of a Hebrew word…
Jon-
Where do you get the idea that the second death is tied to the New Birth, being born of the Spirit/being Born Again?
Prior to coming to Christ all people are born in a condition of being “dead in trespasses and sins” and are “slaves to sin and death”.
That is why one must be “Born Again” and become “New Creations in Christ” in order to see the Kingdom of God.
You are trying to tie a term in scripture the “Second Death” to something that happens prior to or at the time of the “New Birth”, something scripture never does.
On the other hand, scripture is quite clear about what the “Second Death” is and the bible defines it for us, no guesswork is required: Revelation 2:11- the Second Death is something that will hurt some and will not affect others-no mention of the Second Death being tied to salvation or the New Birth. Revelation 20:6-the Second Death has no power over those who partake of the first resurrection. It does however have power over those being resurrected in verses 12-13 who are about to be thrown into it. Again, no mention of the term being applied in anyway to salvation. Revelation 20:11-15. -Being thrown into the lake of fire is the second death. Once again, no mention of the term being used in reference to salvation.
No, you are mistaken; the Second Death is nowhere referred to as something that happens to those about to become Christian or those who have become Christians. You are in error.
Your statement that the only thing we disagree on is eternal punishment is just not accurate.
Jon,
In almost every post where you have commented, this subject has come up. You have even gone to other blogs and interjected this subject no matter what other topic was being discuss. So forgive me for thinking that you are being a bit disingenuous, if not down right dishonest, when you say that you just happen to think this was a good place to discuss the prerequisites for salvation. What was your reason in all those other instances?
Jon, you never stick specifically to the subject being discussed. You always find some way and some reason to beat this dead horse. On that other blog that I mentioned, someone by the name of GaryV “literally” schooled you and all you did in response was to post some links to another blog that supports you view, which itself did not address the points.
This is how I know that at this point you are already convinced and that it will take a supernatural work of the Holy Spirit to convince you otherwise. That is the way it works with all who are blind in certain areas. Including myself.
Daniel, Hutch, and Lawrence D.,
You guys make no sense when it comes to your claims that I keep finding an occasion to discuss my views regarding the age of judgment. If you take a look back at the post, I stuck to the same initial topic (requirements for salvation) until someone (Bro. Lawrence D.) starting bringing up the subject again. I even referred to a previous link for Daniel, so as to “not beat a dead horse”. It is you guys who keep bringing it up! I simply (out of love and respect) try to provide a response to you.
Hutch,
Maybe I’m wrong with my CURRENT UNDERSTANDING of the second death (lake of fire) being the same as us crucifying our flesh daily and being baptized in fire in this present age. I can’t find an explicit reference to the second death being tied to our dying to self (walking in the spirit). For I based this understanding in part on the fact that the Bible refers to the second birth (spiritual) as in contrast with the first birth (physical). Also where it mentions that the physical is first then the spiritual. So I’ve made the ASSUMPTION that the second death (spiritual) should also be set in contrast with the first death (physical) as how the Bible seems to deal with the first and second births. The Bible does mention us being tried by fire, judged, chatised, refined, baptized by fire in this present age. So again I made the ASSUMPTION that the lake of fire (second death) in Revelations is the same fire of the Holy Spirit that will bring judgment/chastisement/correction/refinement to all others who were not apart of the first resurrrection (the resurrection that we-the body of Christ-are apart of).
All,
Somehow, the real issue Lionel addresses in this posting-how relationship with our fellow men is an extension,in physical terms,of our relationship to God-has not been discussed at all!
Let`s return to the topic.I think a major why we have such a problem with relationships is because we expect to interact with people who are exactly like us.Unconsciously,we want to accommodate only people who look,think,speak like us.We want to associate with people who share our opinions,and are impatient and unkind with opponents(blogsphere for example confirms this).
But the love of God is agape,unconditional,with no preconditions.God sent His Son to die for us while we were still sinners.No preconditions were set.If we truly love our brother,the outflow of love towards them would be automatic.Our faith shows up n our works.
As to the amusing discussion on the literalness of hell,I think this is a secondary matter to our faith.What is central to our faith is the redeeming work of Jesus,in His birth,life,death and resurrection.Anyone who does not believe this,and does not accept Christ,should wait until he dies to confirm the reality of hell!
Tunji said:
“What is central to our faith is the redeeming work of Jesus,in His birth,life,death and resurrection.Anyone who does not believe this,and does not accept Christ,should wait until he dies to confirm the reality of hell!”
Now that was funny to me!
I think it comes back to the law of incremental progression… little by little by little by little we have moved farther away from the model of the first century church as presented in scripture. So it makes since that what we have now is hundreds or thousands of “religious camps” (For lack of a better term).
Think about it, when groups of a particular camp have a disagreement about doctrine or some other theology, it usually leads to a split which is formed into a new camp. Now multiply that thousands of times throughout the centuries and you’ve created effectively what exists today!
So if we have all these “splinter” camps, how can they be reconciled together when there were these great issues that caused them to split!? Most times, we don’t see each other as “brothers and sisters” because of this!
I think Tunji makes an excellent point that sometimes unconsciously or even consciously we love to love those who look, think and believe exactly how we do!
But I believe that God will make it easy for us by eliminating these “gray” lines. The true Believers will be forced to make a decision to be hot or cold, for judgment must begin with the church! We will know our brothers and sisters for we will recognize that all we have is each other!
Selah!
I Ain’t Nobody!
Tunji & djdesigns-
Are you really affirming Jon’s belief and teaching that everybody will eventually be saved and with God?
Are you aware that the reason he has to redefine the term “Second Death” is to support his belief that nobody will be tormented and seperated from God for eternity?
Jon-
I am glad that you are admitting that you assumed that the term “second death” had to do with slavation and not eternal torment.
Maybe we are making progress.
If you can and if you have the time and the desire, please interact with the text where that term is actually used in scripture: Revelation 20. And explain to me how it means something other than a place of torment.
I ain’t nobody either! Phillipians 3:3
Jon,
I have been spending some time in prayer about this. I don’t want to take this convesation the way you are taking but it seems like the Spirit does want us to go this way. I will ask a question. How exactly is a man saved by Jesus Christ if he rejects him? Do you believe the individual will come to his senses in the temproary abode, repent and trust Christ and then come to heaven? If that is the case prove it scripturally. If you don’t believe that then you believe in a different Gospel friend. If you believe the first one I can admonish you as a brother, if you believe that this fire or “purification” is what is going to save them then you have in turn rejected the Gospel of the Lord Jesus and I will have to go with Paul in Galatians 1. It is very difficult for me to say this but The Gospel ends in judgment for those who reject and life for those who receive it.
Jon,
Do you remember this?:
“The reason I ask this question on this particular post is because some people have told me that I’m not apart of the Body of Christ and therefore not saved simply because I don’t currently believe in a literal everlasting hell fire to torture/punish those who don’t receive Christ in this age.”
(BLD) Guess who typed that. Go ahead, take a wild guess. It was YOU! Now, guess which comment it appeared in. Go ahead, take a wild guess. Comment #1! My comment is #2. Number 2 comes after number 1 Jon.
Now, how is it that you accuse me of being the one who was “bringing it up again”? You ok Jon?
Lawrence D.,
You must have not read the entire post. If you notice in the beginning and at the end the question was on requirements to salvation.
Here it is again for you.
“So how do we determine (biblically) who would be considered apart of the Body of Christ?
What do you base your judgments on?”
Lionel,
You asked:
“Do you believe the individual will come to his senses in the temproary abode, repent and trust Christ and then come to heaven? If that is the case prove it scripturally.”
As I’ve stated on many previous post, yes I do believe that everyone else will be brought to repentence (cast into the lake of fire) by Christ power to subdue/subject all things (including His enemies) to Himself. How long this period last for each individual? I don’t know. But I do know that Christ knows what it will take to bring all to repentance so that scripture is fulfilled that eventually every knee will bow and confess Christ. Scriptures speak of all being tried by fire! We (body of Christ) are currently being judged/refined/chastised in this current age as scriptures speak of. That’s why scriptures say that those who are apart of the first resurrection, in the age of judgment, the second death has no power over them. For they have already been baptized in God’s refining fire. The Bible tells us for others in the age of judgment there will be great sorrow, torment, grief but when the age of judgment is complete, all things whether in heaven or earth will have been subdued/subjected to Christ. Then Christ will subject all things to the Father so that God is all and in all as the scriptures speak.
God’s ultimate plan of reconciliation also deals with those who WILL NOT BE SAVED FROM THE WRATH TO COME AND FROM SINS DOMINION IN THIS PRESENT AGE (AS THE BODY OF CHRIST IS). They will sufffer God’s wrath in the age of judgment. That’s why scriptures tell us that at the time of the resurrection, some will be raised to life (us) and others will be raised to condemnation/judgment.
How do you scriptuarally deduce that. Where does the bible say that when they are cast into the lake of fire they will repent and finally call upon the name of Jesus receiving His Lordship and thus being justfied before the sight of God?
I don’t see that anywhere Jon. I am sorry bro but I just can’t find that. So eventually after spending some time in hell they will finally say Jesus is Lord and then God will credit Christ’s righteousness to their account because of this new found faith in the Lake of Fire?
Lionel,
Here are some of the scriptures that I’ve brought out before in previous discussions to undergird my CURRENT UNDERSTANDING on this topic:
He, who created all things, will “reconcile to himself ALL things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross” (Colossians 1:20). This reconciliation or restoration of ALL things was foretold by God when He “spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago” (Acts 3:21). God has appointed His Son to be the “heir of ALL things” (Hebrews 1:2) and in God’s Son “shall ALL the nations be blessed” (Galatians 3:8).
God has given His Son “authority over ALL flesh, to give eternal life to ALL whom He has given Him” (John 17:2). “The Father has given ALL things into the Son’s hands” (John 3:35) and so “ALL flesh shall see the salvation of God” (Luke 3:6). Because of “the unchangeable character of God’s purpose” (Hebrews 6:17), because His love for His enemies is unchanging and “He is kind to the ungrateful and evil” (Luke 6:35). “He desires ALL people to be saved” (1 Timothy 2:4). He “gave himself as a ransom for ALL” (1 Timothy 2:6). He “is not wishing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should reach repentance” (2 Peter 3:9). He “has consigned ALL to disobedience, that he may have mercy on ALL” (Romans 11:32) “for from him and through him and to him are ALL things” (Romans 11:36).
So God’s plan is “to unite ALL things in Christ, things in heaven and things on earth” (Ephesians 1:10). The Father has “put ALL things under Christ’s feet” (Ephesians 1:22) and has “given ALL things into his hands” (John 13:3). Jesus has promised to “draw ALL men” to Himself (John 12:32) because “the Father loves the Son and has given ALL things into his hand” (John 3:35). Jesus said, “ALL that the Father gives me will come to me” (John 6:37). Jesus says that like a good shepherd, He will search for each of His lost sheep “until he finds it” (Luke 15:4). “God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him” (John 3:17). “The grace of God has appeared bringing salvation for ALL people” (Titus 2:11).
Jesus is the “Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world” (John 1:29). Jesus gave His flesh as bread “for the life of the world” (John 6:51). “He gives life to the world” (John 6:33). He is “the light of the world” (John 8:12). “He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2). “He is the Savior of ALL people” (1 Timothy 4:10), “the Savior of the world” (John 4:42; 1 John 4:14). “He appeared to destroy the works of the devil” (1 John 3:8).
Jesus “abolished death” (2 Timothy 1:10). “He has put away sin by the sacrifice of himself” (Hebrews 9:26). His power “enables him to subject all things to himself’” (Philippians 3:21). “The gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does” (1 Peter 4:6). He has “the keys of Death and Hades” (Revelation 1:18). He will throw “Death and Hades into the lake of fire” (Revelation 20:14).
“In Christ shall all be made alive” (I Corinthians 15:22). He “accomplished the work” that the Father gave Him to do (John 17:4). “He restores all things” (Acts 3:21). “At the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father” (Philippians 2:10-11). “Every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, `To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever! “‘ (Revelation 5:13).
“Then comes the end, when he [Jesus] delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For `God has put all things in subjection under his feet.’ But when it says `all things are put in subjection,’ it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all” (1 Corinthians 15:24-28).
Jon,
Okay that was my last attempt thanks again.
Jon,
Your question was framed as such:
” Question for anyone.
Does the bible teache that in order to be in Christ you must believe in a literal eternal hell fire?”
Do you see those last 4 words? Did you or did you not frame your “requirements for salvation” question around the very same topic that you interject into almost every conversation? You accused me of being the one who was guilty of “bringing it up”. But in fact, as I have demonstrated, you are the guilty party here.
A real Christian would admit that he was wrong and would apologize for making a false accusation against another brother. Right Jon?
Anyone can go back and read every comment that you have made on this blog and notice not only the same pattern but the fact that you have used the same words (cut and paste method gone wild!) each time you have commented. How many times are you going to tell us about your COGIC uncle?
Jon, you are an evangelist of Universalism. You proclaim another gospel. I don’t have to decide whether or not you are a part of the Body. Paul did in Galatians 1:8,9!
Lawrence,
When you have so many of the same basic questions, it becomes a lot easier to use the cut and paste function.
The reason I was being considered, by some, to not be apart of the Body of Christ, was because of my stance on hell. That’s why I used it in relation to the question I posed about the requirements of salvation. The intent was not to bring up the subject of hell being literal or not! I believe you and Daniel were the ones who started in that direction AGAIN!
Lionel,
I appreciate your willingness to try to (in your opinion) correct me in my understanding. I have realized that our understandings may change as we continue to grow in Christ. However, hopefully we all realize that there will be some NON ESSENTIAL issues that we may never agree on in this life (age). That is why I posed the initial question in regards to the ESSENTIALS OF BECOMING SAVED, for I do believe there should be general agreement on how one can know Christ. So it seems on the judgment issue, we indeed must (for now) agree to disagree and stay in peace with one another. Let us all be fully convinced in our own minds!
Jon,
This is essential bro.
Lionel,
My point is it is not essential to salvaion! Therefore, it becomes a non essential IN RELATION TO THE REQUIREMENTS FOR SALVATION!
Some would argue that water baptism is essential, that worshiping on Saturday is essential, that speaking in tongues is essential, that not eating unclean things (based on Levitical Laws) is essential, some consider tithing 10% an essential. But are these essentials to receive Christ? Certainly not! If so, again show me scriptures to prove this.
Jon,
Those individuals who believe that, believes a different Gospel. Those individuals are the very one Paul says “let them be accurssed”. Anything added as a prerequisite to the Gospel redefines it Jon.
To say that every living person will be saved eventually because of the Lake of Fire redefines the Gospel Jon. I have to call you to the table on that. That is no different than those who say “Jesus died for everybody and everybody will be saved and no one goes to hell”
Hutch, I’m not sure I affirmed or even attempted to affirm anything that Jon has presented. I don’t believe that EVERYONE will be saved. Heck… I don’t believe that EVERYONE “claiming” to be saved IS saved!
I only tried to present an idea that what exists today in “Christendom” is a result of incremental movement AWAY from the first century church model! Which contributes to the idea of “otherness” and disconnectedness of “believers”. In other words… everybody got beef with somebody!
I Ain’t Nobody!
Lionel,
I have never said that everyone will be saved. I said that everyone will eventually be made alive to God through Christ. Salvation belongs only to those who willing accept and submit to Christ in this present age. That’s why the term saved is used. Saved from sins dominion and spiritual death and from God’s wrath to come.
So what is it Lionel. You’re confusing me. Is believing in a literal hell fire a prerequisite to the Gospel message of salvation for you? If so, then you are the one teaching another gospel!
djdesignz & Tunji-
My bad. You are correct you did not affirm Jon’s belief that all will be saved.
I do agree with your assesment of the institutional church, but still feel that dividing over universalism is not the same as dividing over non-essentials, universalism is a destructive fasle teaching.
Peace.
And since it seems we are still on this subject.
It’s interesting how you or anyone else has hardly ever addressed the apparent problems and contradictions of scripture that arise as a result of believing in eternal torment. You seem to skip over the many scriptures that seem to speak of All being reconciled to God.
Is Jesus only drawing some men to Him since He has been lifted up?
Is God going to only be all in ONLY SOME at the consumation of the ages?
Is God not really reconciling all (as mentioned in scripture) but only some?
Is death only to be destroyed for some but remain for eternity for others?
Is the confession that all eventually will have for Christ not a real confession?
Is it God’s pleasure/desire for some to suffer eternal torture/torment?
Or is God a lie when scriptures tell us that He will do all His pleasures?
Does it not also say His pleasures include all coming to repentance so that every knee will bow and tongue confess?
Finally, were many of the respected early church fathers (before 300 AD) also preaching/teaching another gospel?
Jon,
So you believe Salvation is only for this life? I am confused. Salvation has both realized and future implications. The right now is that we are freed from sin, we are baptized into a body of believers, we have peace with God and we now can live heavenly minded. The future is that we will get ressurected bodies and live with God for eternity with those new bodies in the New Heavens and New Earth.
I am confused on what you are saying then. Elaborate. Are you not saying that eventually all people will be in the New Heaven and New Earth for eternity and that no one is going to be eternally judged for their sin? What am I missing?
Jon-
You said: I said that everyone will eventually be made alive to God through Christ.
O.K. Jon, I’m game. Show us the verse, verses that state that all will eventually be made alive to God through Christ.
In what way will the ultimate fate of those of are saved in this life be from those who rejected CHrist in this life but who you say will eventually be made alive to God through Christ?
Plus, I am still waiting for you to break down Revelation 20 for me.
Correction to post #35
I said:
“I have never said that everyone will be saved.”
I may have used the term saved in connection with all others. But they are saved only from sin’s continued dominion and NOT GOD’S WRATH. For sin and death will be destroyed for all.
Correction:
Jon-
You said: I said that everyone will eventually be made alive to God through Christ.
O.K. Jon, I’m game. Show us the verse, verses that state that all will eventually be made alive to God through Christ.
In what way will the ultimate fate of those of are saved in this life be different from those who rejected CHrist in this life but who you say will eventually be made alive to God through Christ?
Plus, I am still waiting for you to break down Revelation 20 for me.
Hutch,
You said:
“Show us the verse, verses that state that all will eventually be made alive to God through Christ.”
Here are few for your review AGAIN. Please provide commentary if I’m not handling these scriptures properly!
I Cor 15:22
For as in Adam ALL DIE, even so in Christ ALL SHALL BE MADE ALIVE.
I Corinthians 15:24-28
Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.”[a] But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when ALL THINGS ARE MADE SUBJECT TO HIM, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
John 12:32
and I, if I may be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.’
Colossians 1:20
and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, WHETHER THINGS ON EARTH OR THINGS IN HEAVEN, HAVING MADE PEACE THROUGH THE BLOOD OF HIS CROSS.
Hutch,
You asked:
“In what way will the ultimate fate of those of are saved in this life be different from those who rejected CHrist in this life but who you say will eventually be made alive to God through Christ?”
We NOW no longer have to remain bound by sin. We ARE NOW being healed of our spiritual sicknesses. We are PRESENTLY being judged by Christ. We have NOW been made alive to God through Christ. We are joint-heirs with Christ since we share in His sufferings in this present age, ruling and reigning with Him throughout the figurative 1000 year reign. We NOW inherit the kingdom of God. In the coming age of judgment we have escaped God’s wrath and we will continue to rule and reign with Him throughout the age(s) of judgment. We will receive rewards for our faithful service.
At the consumation of the ages the scriptures tell us that God will be all and in all. I don’t know what this all entails for us. Will there be continued distinctions/ranks among His human creation? I don’t know.
I do believe that we can learn from the parable of the prodigal son. For we don’t want to be like the son who stayed with his father to eventually become upset that the Father was willing to share his glory/possessions with the son who was lost but had eventually been found.
I will provide commentary on Revelations 20 later tonight. I will not have access to the internet again until later. I got to go for now.
Jon-
Are you saying everybody eventually arrives at the same destination?
Hutch,
Let me start by saying that Revelations is a difficult book to understand considering the fact that it uses a lot of figurative/symbolic speech. I do not believe that I have complete understanding on any of the scriptures and especially when it comes to passages in Revelations. With that said, I will now provide my CURRENT UNDERSTANDING on Revelations 20.
(Young’s Literal Translation)
1And I saw a messenger coming down out of the heaven, having the key of the abyss, and a great chain over his hand,
2and he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, who is Devil and Adversary, and did bind him a thousand years,
3and he cast him to the abyss, and did shut him up, and put a seal upon him, that he may not lead astray the nations any more, till the thousand years may be finished; and after these it behoveth him to be loosed a little time.
(Comment) The figurative 1000 years begin (possibly) at Christ baptism, or at the death on the cross, or the resurrection of Jesus, or maybe on the day of Pentecost. The reference to Satan being bound (to some degree) seems to (possibly) relate to Mark3:27 – No one can enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. And then he will plunder his house.
Satan being loosed for a little time after the figurative 1000 years may coincide with this present age of the New Covenant. For we are mentioned in scripture to already be ruling and reigning with Christ in the heavenlies. We are already a royal priesthood with Christ. We have life now but we are still waiting for the life more abundant when we receive our glorified bodies. We are said to be joint-heirs with Christ. So we will continue to rule and reign with Him throughout the coming age of judgment. Christ reign (as the Son) will end at the consummation of the ages based on I Corinthians 15:25 – For He must reign TILL He has put all enemies under His feet.
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years;
(Comment) We have to be careful in not reading Revelations as if all the scriptures are written to portray chronological order. The thrones and judgment that were given is relating to the authority given us in Christ in this present age as well as in the ages to come. This scripture seems not to be in specific reference to the yet future resurrection when we receive our glorified bodies. John is only relating those who had become apart of the first resurrection (spiritual) in this present age. For all Christians who have died, are currently living, and in the future will have ruled and reigned in the figurative 1000 year period.
5and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished; this [is] the first rising again.
(Comment) – Here we see (possibly) where the spiritually dead are said to eventually be made spiritually alive again, but they will not be made alive to Christ until the present age (figurative 1000 yrs) has been completed. Then begins the judgment at the time of the resurrection. The rest of the dead (those who were not described in verse 4) were not alive to Christ in this present age at the time of their physical deaths. Therefore they remain spiritually dead until they have gone through God’s refining fire (lake of fire –second death)
6Happy and holy [is] he who is having part in the first rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
(Comment) We are apart of the first resurrection (first rising) therefore the second death (lake of fire) has no authority over us for we have already overcome sin (die to sin daily in this present age). We are now being judged/refined by fire/chastised/tried by fire/baptized by fire in this present age. Therefore, we will not need to go through the fire in the coming age of judgment. So the second death has no authority over us.
7And when the thousand years may be finished, the Adversary shall be loosed out of his prison,
8and he shall go forth to lead the nations astray, that are in the four corners of the earth — Gog and Magog — to gather them together to war, of whom the number [is] as the sand of the sea;
9and they did go up over the breadth of the land, and did surround the camp of the saints, and the beloved city, and there came down fire from God out of the heaven, and devoured them;
(Comment) Possibly describes all generations of peoples who have rebelled against God and His saints. God’s fire out of heaven that devoured them is a symbol of God’s (figurative) fire judgment to eventually come down on them at the end of the present age (fig. 1000 yrs) to destroy all carnality/sin/death/rebellion from all of creation. This is yet to come to them. That’s why the second death (lake of fire) does have authority over them in the coming age of judgment. This is when they will be tried by the fire/baptized by fire/chastised/judged/refined by fire. The fire will not be quenched by anything or anyone till it has completely consumed all of the waste (carnality/sin/flesh/rebellion) for which it was set out to accomplish. This is why Jesus refers to ghenna’s fire/valley of Hinnom (mistranslated hell in some popular bible translations) to symbolically represent God’s consuming fire that also burns/consumes all waste.
10and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night — to the ages of the ages.
(Comment) The lake of fire and brimstone signifies a literal fire burning with brimstone (with the usage of the word brimstone or sulphur to explain the character of the fire). The Greek word Theion translated brimstone is the same word Theion which means divine. The verb derived from Theion is Theioo, which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god. Therefore, it may be concluded that a lake of fire and brimstone would mean a lake of divine purification. The beast and the false prophet (whatever this may symbolize) have already been cast into the lake of fire at the time when the Devil is finally cast there. They shall be tormented throughout the ages with the Devil finally taking his part throughout the judgment age(s) till all enemies have been subdued and subjected to the Lordship of Christ. Some popular Bible translations have “to the ages of the ages” mistranslated to mean forever which cannot be considering all things must be put under subjection and death must be destroyed.
11And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven did flee away, and place was not found for them;
12and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls — according to their works;
13and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works;
14and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire — this [is] the second death;
15and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire.
(Comment) Now John looks at the time of the resurrection of all the dead (spiritually alive and spiritually dead). We are raised to life more abundant and the rest of the dead to judgment/condemnation. They are judged according to their works. We (those who have overcome sin in this present age) are written in the Book of Life. All others will have their part in the lake of fire (second death). I have previously stated my assumed connection of the second death with our death to sin principle. The second death is the death of sin and death itself. All carnality/flesh/sin/disobedience is destroyed at the cross (the second death – death to sin) and all who have been baptized by God’s fire will be brought to repentance and confession to the Lord Jesus Christ. All enemies of Christ will be subjected to Him by God’s power to draw all to the cross (second death). For to be dead to sin is to be alive to God.
Jon-
Those are some pretty dangerous additions to scripture and curious re-defining of terms.
One last, yes or no question:
Is anyone ever separated from God in literal conscious torment forever or for all eternity?
Hutch,
You asked:
“Is anyone ever separated from God in literal conscious torment forever or for all eternity?”
No
You also said:
“Those are some pretty dangerous additions to scripture and curious re-defining of terms.”
Can you please be more specific?
And can you or anyone else begin to comment on the questions that I have posed in post #37 and provide commentary on the scriptures that I provided in relation to all being made alive to Christ?
What about this:
Luk 16:23 And in HELL he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
What was his outcome?
Jon-
I think I am clear on your position, I just wanted you to state it clearly again, we may never agree.
Although I am holding out hope that you will reconsider your viewpoint-mine will not change.
You are still attaching the term second death in some way to a part of the salvation experience something scripture never does. The use of the term is used very specifically in three places always referencing something that happens to unbelievers.
You are attaching a made up definition to the second death and ignoring the definition scriptures gives to it.
In my opinion the issue and all the verses have been thoroughly covered in various locations here on Lionel’s blog and the other blogs that I am aware of that you have had the same conversation. Your position has been sufficiently refuted.
I am also suprised that you took issue with Bro. Lawrence D. regarding the fact that you keep bringing up this issue even on posts that have nothing to do with it-like almost all of them-it is clear that this issue is your fixation and passion.
You have made it clear that you think your position and tecahing is arrived at by your more mature understanding of scripture, I cannot speak for everybody but if not all, the majority of us feel you have been decieved and are tecahing what scripture calls “doctrines of demons”-Satan in his desperation would love nothing more than for folks to beleive your doctrine regarding the place that he knows he will one day share for all eternity in conscious torment. After all misery loves company and he knows his time is short.
Although I am done with the issue, I will end by saying two things to you: 1) “In Christ” holds a lot of menaing and is the key to some of the verses you cited “in Christ” is a modifier and “subject all things to Himself” does not mean all people end up eventually with God-”subject to” means to place under, Satan the demons and all unbelievers will be “subject to” Christ as they bow the knee, acknowledge that he is Lord as they are thrown into the lake of fire. We know they are subject to Him as they can do nothing to reverse His will and actions-they cannot get out. 2) Believe it or not, although I do not recognize you as a brother, I hold no ill will towards you and will pray that you will stop teaching your false gospel and come to embrace the truth. I am also praying that people will not be deceived by your message.
Hutch,
You said in post #’s 39 & 41:
“O.K. Jon, I’m game. Show us the verse, verses that state that all will eventually be made alive to God through Christ.”
I responded to you in post #42 and have yet to get any response from you or anyone else. It seems that no one is willing or able to provide rationale behind their difference of opinion on several scriptures that I have mentioned. And you claim that I’m in error but will not provide any response to the apparent contradictions in your view. But yet you so easily write me off as not being a brother in Christ and teaching a dangerous doctrine.
Lionel, Bro. Lawrence D., Hutch, and all others, can you clear up the apparent problems that I see with your theology on this subject?
Thinking,
Are you saying that you also believe in a literal Abraham’s bosom as well?
Do you not yet understand that this parable is not to be taken literally but figuratively?
Here’s a good link to help you out:
http://mercifultruth.com/lazarus.htm
Jon,
Going forward I will have to delete all you post. So I am giving you a heads up that whatever you post will be deleted. I have come to the conclusion that you are out to make false disciples out for yourself. Thanks.
Lionel,
Why is it to much to ask for you guys to address some of the apparent problems with your doctrine?
I don’t understand!
I have tried to address every question that you all have posed to me. I have provided plenty of scriptures for you to comment on. But still nothing in return.
Men and brethren,
I have purposely been trying to stay out of the Jon vs. the volcano issues, but in all honesty as an old cartoon character used to say: I cans’t stands it anymore!!!
I would like to throw out one suggestion if that is ok with you Lionel?
Mr. Paden, Get your own blog!!!!!
This way you can post your views all day long and not interrupt the regularly scheduled posts that Lionel is working so hard on blogging about. You can then have your own following instead of trying to use someone elses blog to post your views and lead people into your way of thinking. As is obvious you won’t win anyone over from here as well as we won’t win you over. It is only through Jesus Christ and Him crucified that truth will and is revealed. Not through veiled eyes or understanding.
I love all men and pray for all,
Steven
You guys make no sense to me.
I had tried to deal with another subject. But you guys kept asking me questions. Reread the post and check for yourselfs. Then when I respond (to all or most of your questions), you claim that I’m trying to make disciples for myself and all of you refuse or cannot respond to any of the obvious problems with your theology.
AMAZING!!!