My opening statement is here: I will take Gay Marriage serious when we decide to take Straight Marriage seriously. If I am going to vote for a bill to be passed that defines marriage as “between one man and woman” then that bill most also contain “and divorce and remarriage is only allowed for martial (proven) unfaithfulness”. How about that for a Federal Marriage Amendment?
It is funny that we Christians always want to control what is right and wrong in our culture while simultaneously disobeying direct commands from Jesus himself. So we want to tell our Gay and Lesbian communities that it is wrong for them to marry one another when they are in love (I am not advocating this) but in turn we divorce whenever we feel we are “out of love”. So we are telling our Gay and Lesbian communities “do as I say and not as I do” and I think the last time I checked that is defined as hypocrisy! Who are we to pass judgment when we being the people of God don’t obey! Man, that makes me sick.
Let me give an example. For all of the preachers who have fought and encouraged their congregation in this fight against gay marriage. I want to know how many of their congregants were divorced and remarried against the direct commands of God? I will tell you a lot. The last study showed that the divorce rate for Christians (evangelicals) was right around 50% and the majority of them were remarried. Now here is a verse that I haven’t seen preached enough and if it is preached no church discipline has been instituted to prevent it from happening as frequently as it does in the “church”.
7 They said to him, “Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce and to send her away?” 8 He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.”
Do we take the words of Jesus seriously as believers? Let me ask a serious question. When have we seen church discipline practiced for violating this scripture? I tell you I haven ‘t seen it once. Now we will split with Christians over having women in the pulpits, for thinking differently on the gifts, we want to punt the emerging church because of their subjectivity of the scriptures, we call them “postmodern” but in the same vein, the same people who are fighting against gay marriage and “postmodernism” bury their heads in the sand on this one. So yes I am bit frustrated.
So if we are to fight for the sanctity of marriage lets not stop at preventing our Gay and Lesbian citizens from being married! Lets take it all the way to preventing the selfish liberty of divorce that permeates the church in every denomination. If we want to help our children and save them from the “shamefulness of gay marriage” then lets save them from the “shamefulness” of heterosexual divorce on demand! Our kids aren’t being destroyed by gay marriage. Gay marriage isn’t the decline of the moral fabric in America. Heterosexual divorce is though. Especially “heterosexual Christan” divorces. Just look this Christmas when kids will have to spend the holidays apart from their “christian” parents because they had selfish ambition oh.. I mean irreconcilable differences. Because Mommy and Daddy wanted things their way and because they couldn’t be adults and not to mention submit to the Lordship of Christ they had a bitter split. Because Mommy and Daddy profess Christ with their mouth, the profess their allegiance and submission to Him in word only, because when it all boils down, I don’t want Jesus telling me who I should stay married to and isn’t my happiness more important, than the Christ, the Church and my kids. They all understand right? Wrong!
So the next time I hear so phony, over emotional, sensational, right wing Christian appeal to get a federal law passed to ban homosexual marriage, I am going to scream. Because those same people refuse to obey Jesus Christ themselves and that is hypocrisy. Oh, not to mention we now have “divorce care” ministries popping up across the globe. Not saying they are bad, but unless it was for marital unfaithfulness then, umhhh, well… maybe they shouldn’t be allowed to be cared for. My two cents anyway.
Lionel great article and I agree 100% with it. If I here another Christian say they fell out of love I am going to scream.
Bro. Lionel,
I love that Jesus said “but from the beginning it was not so”. He stated emphatically that God’s design is/was “once married, always married”. It was never God’s design that marriages would be dissolved at will. Marriage is only dissolved at death and even then it does not seem that one would be so eager to do it again.
I don’t have the perfect marriage, if for no other reason than that I’m not a perfect husband. But I can’t see myself married to anyone other than Rikisha. She is truly a “favor” from God. Despite all we’ve been through, to have given up on the possibility of experiencing what we now have together would have been nothing short of sin. Thank God for His grace!
I’m in agreement with probably the bulk of your post, but I think it’s at this point where I would go a different way…
You said: “Gay marriage isn’t the decline of the moral fabric in America. Heterosexual divorce is though.”
I’d have to say that the this whole concept of there being a “moral fabric” is really an illusion in the first place, and we as followers of Christ, shouldn’t get caught up trying to take the moral pulse of a given society in order to determine how healthy it is. God has already delivered a verdict. We’re all filthy. We’re all condemned. Any awareness of the relative “morality” of a given culture is only skin-deep, and often distracts us from the heart condition of every man and woman. As followers of Christ, we shouldn’t be concerning ourselves with passing legislation with the intent of curbing “moral misconduct” of any kind, whether it be sexual, marital, etc. Only the Cross can rightly deal with the real disease, laws only are only a futile attempt at surpressing the symptoms.
Q: How did Jesus, and the Apostles, regard the task of “reforming” the moral fabric of Palestine and the Roman Empire through political action?
A: They completely ignored it.
peace, Daniel
Thank you! Thank you!
I am a progressive christian, a gay man, and I am married to a wonderful husband. I am so tired of hearing so many evangelicals/fundamentalists say and write the most horrible things about same-sex marriage while they ignore what is the most destructive thing to happen to marriages: divorce.
I may not agree with you about 2 people of the same-sex being together in a marriage (obviously since I’m married) But I thank you for saying that the church needs to stop being so hypocritical about marriage and divorce.
Thank you!
Daniel,
I actually agree, I was speaking from the position of those who would call this a Christian Nation.
Hey Keltic,
Yeah I am under the conviction that such a marriage is an oxymoron based off of the scripture and thus is sin. But yes I am agreeing with you that those who stand against gay marriage have little to no problem with the rapid divorces of heterosexual marriages. So for that we are extremely hypocritical and I want to see the same passion that they have against gay marriage.
Lionel,
Great post! I also agree 100%. We are good at diagnosing and prescribing treatment for symptoms but ignoring and sometimes even inflaming the disease. We are hosts to the cure, our blood having the antibodies, but we quarantine ourselves and sit around discussing how sick everyone is outside our walls and how thankful we are that we are not like them. Ugh.
-Jeff
Daniel-
I see where Lionel is coming from, but I agree with you whenever I hear someone say the “moral fabric of America” I always think to myself what is that?
Just a brief snippet of “American” church history, gives us a clue of where this type of idea came from the “Reformed/Puritans” believe that they made a covenant with God when they came to what would become America. They believed that God would bless their new homeland if they where faithful to this “covenant” and that he would likewise chastise and curse America if the “church” is disobedient to the “covenant”. Never mind the fact that all of the binding covenants in God’s Word were instituted and fulfilled by God or the fact that man cannot bind God to a covenant of mans making. There are strains of Covenant Theology that still teach this idea that America’s spiritual blessing is tied to the faithfulness of the church to this made up covenant. I have even heard a sermon recently were the speaker quoted Isaiah speaking to National Israel saying that if His people would turn back to Him that He would heal their land and applied that to the “American Church” and “America”. Interestingly God under their made up covenant and theology deals with America like He dealt with National Israel.
The Anabaptists had a more biblical view of the situation believing that the whole world including America is a part of the wicked world system that is contrary to God’s Kingdom, that people are individually delta with regarding their own sin and that believers serve a different Kingdom that is not of this world.
Lionel-
One of my pet peeves is when two professing believers seem to be able to extend forgiveness to anyone else except for their spouse. Divorce is never commanded, only allowed is certain circumstances, reconciliation is always the goal not divorce. Sin in a marriage is an incredible opportunity for both parties to grow in Christ likeness, extend forgiveness, mercy and grace (unmerited favor) and to be a great testimony of Christ’s ability to heal a marriage to others in similar circumstance. Do I extend grace towards the divorced, of course I do, but why could they not extend grace to their spouse?
Remember God hates divorce, not divorced people. Why does He hate divorce? Because it is the exact opposite of His nature, Christ does not divorce His disobedient Bride the Church despite our sins. God does not throw His children/relationship away when they offend Him.
But people do.
Great post Lionel.
The way today’s Christian culture spews so much vitriol towards anything Homosexual gets really sickening. It seems today’s Christian is looking for anything and everything to attack and criticize just so they can overlook the plank in their own eye.
Maybe if we started actually following our beliefs ourselves as Christians we would have more credibility when we try to make statements about others. Even if that happened we have a long way to go to learn how to do those things with a loving Christ like attitude.
Lionel ,
If more people in the body of Christ did this type of intraspection I wonder what the world and our lives would resemble.
I can promise you though, you will not be getting to many calls to preach that anywhere in this country.
As a reformed – emergent – missional – Christian, I agree with you Lionel on this one – BIG TIME!!! I pray you continue to be bold in the things of God that concern you.
Your 2 cents worth … reminds us … of the love of God for ALL humanity, bless you.
daniel,
i’m not sure if i’m understanding you correctly. are you saying there should be no laws whatsoever that would keep immoral or offensive behavior in check? of course as believers we know that obeying the laws of the land could never make anyone in right standing with God but they are helpful in order for us to have some kind of order in society.
again, i’m not certain about what you’re saying about morality.
Mark “MCT”,
I agree wholeheartedly bro. I want to see a group of Christians boycotting a divorce procedure, like they do gay parades and gay marriages. It is an embarassment to the Church of Christ. Why we fail to call hypocrisy what it is bewilders me but it seems like morality is the eye of the beholder.
Brian,
Well maybe you will invite me to Volume one day! LOL. I just wonder if we would stay away from divorce courts and honor our spouses then maybe we will have an ear with our homosexual communities. But hey, as long as they don’t get married is all I am concerned about, forget about us staying married.
Mark R,
Thanks brother. I greatly appreciate it. Hey I got to add you to my RSS. I knew I was missing a couple you and the other Mark.
Mav,
I want to ask what would those moral things be and then who’s morality?
well, just off the top of my head- i’m glad there are laws against rape, incest, child abuse and pedophilia. are you?
I agree but continue. What else should be there?
lionel, where are you going with this line of questioning?
Mav,
I am just follwing your questioning of Daniel. My question is when we legislate morality where do we start and stop?
lionel,
I would be glad to let you come and rock our domes and hearts with the Word. Don’t be surprise if that happens one day. For real!!!!!
I am interested to see where you guys are going with these lines of questions as well.
i’m not sure what daniel is advocating that’s why i asked. why don’t you tell me what you think is acceptable.
Mav,
1. I am against anything that hurts the safety of humanity.
2. I am against any law that may be a command to us but not a detriment to society because it infringes upon their liberty to do what is right in their own eyes, God will judge that.
can you please give me a few examples of commands written for Christians to obey that if practiced by society, it would be detrimental.
Mav,
I am not saying detrimental I said it infringes upon their liberty. And there are quite few that we obey that the non-believer isn’t required to because it won’t matter anyway because the reject the Gospel.
brother lionel you hit it on the nail. the Christian right talks about defending marriage aganist gays & lesbians when heterosexual marriages are falling apart daily. if you look at the dating websites 70% of the women on there are divorced. if you look at the black dating websites it is more than 70% and rising. kids are messed up for years, i know personally becasue i was divorced(i was not for it & did not sign any paperwork). now my son is hurting as well aas myself and my ex-wife is now realizing that was not a wise move.this is not a Christian nation at all. had some Judeo-Christian roots that is about it. Canada is more Christian than the USA ??
hi sam, since you were against the divorce and your ex wife realizes it was a mistake, will you two be reconciling and remarrying?
yes…we are all sinners, for sure.
praise God for His Grace in Jesus.
Just ran across a Google article titled “God to Same-Sexers: Hurry Up” which takes a rather unusual approach to the gay debate. Would love to see anyone’s analysis of it. Alan
Keltic, I am sorry to say that lionelwoods did make good points, fair ones at that about this overall situation. But sadly he came out of the closet and verified that he does not really condone you with your marriage being it gay.
I am aslo gay yet single. But the truth is Keltic, you are really dealing with an ignorant man and he has nothing for you to live on. It’s sad to see someone appear to be on a good track only to discover that he only demeans gays and gives them no way to the lord, and i believe that is the real truth here. Quote lionelwoods called your marriage an oxymoron. Sorry keltic, your no good. But I’m sure on your side. I think of you as good and envy your marriage as a good respectable one in the lord. I am just sorry that it is so hard to squeeze in the tight space left for you by our brothers and sisters in Christ. Peace out.
Justme,
I will engage you on this but only briefly. I want to address your gross misrepresenation of my position.
1. It depends on what you mean by condone. Should it be recognized within the state yes. The church not at all.
2. I have never demeaned gays in anyway. Saying your lifestyle is wrong isn’t demeaning. I never name called, never said I wouldn’t interact with you, never called you subhuman. I am saddened that you would use a word like demean. Do I disagree with your lifestyle? Sure I do. God considers it sexual immorality, are you to be treated like a human created in the image of God? Sure you are. We can be friends, but as it relates to the Gospel your lifestyle is in opposition to what God demands from creation.
3. I never called anyone “no good” that is your quote and not mine bro.
4. Just as Israel complained to Moses about the manna, not having water, and the conditions of the desert and their beef was with God, so is yours. You can use me as an outlet if you like, but the problem is biblically your lifestyle is unacceptable and I can’t shrink from calling it that.
Lionel,
That was a great response to just me…
Just me,
Understand that the bible never puts a hierarchy system on our sin. Wrong is wrong whether that is homosexuality or the pride I deal with on a daily basis.
Thanks BF (no pun intended)