I was talking with BLD and Tyris the other day and today. I am again trying to reconcile what I have been taught with the Holy Scriptures (or at least what I thought I was taught). My question is this. I understand that God is Sovereign and His attributes consist of but are not limited to: Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omnipotent, Immutable and Eternal. But I want to know how are behavior, namely our faith move God.
Here is what I mean, given my current position. I would say that yes, we pray but our prayer doesn’t change the heart and mind of God because, well… umh… He is Sovereign. Really what happens is that God changes us through prayer but because of the attributes of God (especially His Sovereignty) that means that rather I do it or not God will accomplish His will.
Throughout the Gospels, we see that Jesus says “by your faith” you were made whole. He says this quite frequently. He even says the reason the disciples couldn’t cast out the demons was because they didn’t have the “faith” to do it. Here is something even more shaky for me. In Exodus and Numbers God is going to destroy Israel a few times.
Here is the incident in Exodus 32:
7 And the Lord said to Moses, “Go down, for your people, whom you brought up out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves. 8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way that I commanded them. They have made for themselves a golden calf and have worshiped it and sacrificed to it and said, ‘These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt!’” 9 And the Lord said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and behold, it is a stiff-necked people.10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them, in order that I may make a great nation of you.”11 But Moses implored the Lord his God and said, “O Lord, why does your wrath burn hot against your people, whom you have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians say, ‘With evil intent did he bring them out, to kill them in the mountains and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from your burning anger and relent from this disaster against your people……14 And the Lord relented from the disaster that he had spoken of bringing on his people.
Now let me ask a serious question. Was God bluffing the Moses? Was he just making pretend to see how Moses would respond? Was God just saying to the Trinity “hey I am going to call Moses bluff to see If he really is my servant or out for himself”? Given the seriousness of the charge and Moses response this section of scripture makes me say that God was really going to kill them and that Moses really interceded, thus changing the heart of God.
Some of you may have already worked through this but I see too many instances in scripture where faith and prayer changed the predicaments of others. Peter was released from prison, the faith of the Centurion, the faith of the women with the issue of blood, Hezekiah’s extension and many other biblical examples.
So my question is this given God’s sovereignty how does prayer and faith effect change with God? Can God’s heart be changed and can He not move because of a lack of faith, or are things the way they are? So I am trying to fit a square into a circle, my theology doesn’t match up with what I read.
First of all, Lionel, let me just say that what you’ve wrote here is garbage. LOL Inside joke.
In all seriousness, I understand your quandry. I’m not sure if this helps or just muddies the waters but I was studying the passage in I Samuel where Saul killed most of the Amlekites. Anyway, Matthew Henry wrote in his commentary that regarding Saul and his kingship over Israel that God did not change His will but rather that God willed a change. If I don’t think about it too hard it makes sense. If I spend too much time thinking about it I get a headache.
well lionel, indeed you do have a predicament. so perhaps you should change your theology if it doesn’t line up with what is written on the page.
to answer your q. i do believe that God responds to our faith. He has dealt to every man the measure of faith. romans 12:3 therefore, i believe we are all born with faith just like we are all born with gifts. it’s just something the good Lord gave to us.
i believe faith must be directed toward God. i do not believe that faith is about saying certain words or making affirmations to get “results”.
i do see God responding to people’s faith, like the woman with an issue of blood (luke 8, matt.9) and also not responding to people’s faith like in mark 5, matt. 13:58, matt. 17:20.
lastly, i believe that without faith it’s impossible to please God. hebrews 11:6
Mrs. Maverick said:
“well lionel, indeed you do have a predicament. so perhaps you should change your theology if it doesn’t line up with what is written on the page.”
I second that motion!
Jon Paden
Lionel, This was a good post (No, seriously, I mean it.) I appreciate your honesty and your willingness to seek for truth.
No matter what we disagree on, there are two things we will both be absolutely sure of until the day we die:
1. The Bible is the inerrant, authoritative word of God.
2. The Bible clearly says that God is sovereign and immutable.
The Bible makes it very clear God cannot and does not change:
Numbers 23:19, Job 14:4-5, Job 23:13, Psalm 33:11, Psalm 139:16, Proverbs 19:21, Isaiah 14:24, Malachi 3:6, James 1:17, Hebrews 13:8 and those are just the ones off the top of my head.
You and I both know there are no contradictions in the Bible. So the $64 question remains, how do we interpret the scriptures in question? I don’t know. But I am comfortable with the Bible containing some mysteries, especially when it comes to God and his character because our finite minds cannot even begin to comprehend the infinite awesomeness of God. Put it this way, I’m very comfortable remaining clueless as to how to interpret the verses in question as long I know how to not interpret them.
Lionel,
Your theology is spot on, and the only one which makes sense. I think you need to ask more questions.
In relation to your question we need to ask, “Is God immutable (unchanging)?” “Why is the unchanging nature of God critical to whom He is?” “Is God omniscient?” “Is God omnipotent?”
God is not an instrument to be played. Pagans have gods who change, our God is immutable.
It’s not a matter of proof texts, which are easy to trot out, for instance, “God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind (‘repent’ as some versions say” (Numbers 23:19).
God’s immutability is one of the glorious characteristics of our Creator which makes Him very different from mere men. God is immutable (unchangeable) in His being, His attributes, or His determinations. He is as immoveable as the ‘Rock’ to which He is likened in Deut 32:4. He can know no change, on which James is definite in 1:17-18.
God is immutable in His nature and being, and infinitely so. His own affirmation regarding Himself is ‘I am the LORD, I change not’ (Mal. 3:6).
In everything God was before anything existed is precisely how God is now, and for ever. His power, His wisdom, His holiness; the same.
God’s counsel is immutable. His will does not change! Oh! I know some will be quick to come up with, ‘And it repented the LORD that He had made man’ (Gen 6:6).
Then let me ask whether those who do so, whether they believe that God contradicts Himself in the inspired Scriptures? What of these words, ‘God is not a man, that He should lie; neither the son of man, that He should repent.’ (Numbers 23:19), and I Samuel 15:29 also, ‘The Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for He is not a man, that He should repent.’?
God is using an anthropomorphism when speaking of Himself. How else can mere men understand God?
There is no doubt that God is immutable in His counsel as we see in Rom 11:29, ‘The gifts and calling of God are without repentance’ . Job was confident it was so, ‘But He is unique and who can turn Him? And what His soul desires, that He does. ‘ (Job 23:13 NASB).
But as God is both omniscient and omnipotent there is never any need for Him to revise His decrees. No, ‘The counsel of the LORD stands forever, The plans of His heart from generation to generation’ (Psa 33:11 NASB), including those for you and me. That’s why we read these words in Heb. 6:17-18 NASB, “In the same way God, desiring even more to show to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of His purpose, interposed with an oath, so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us”.
This old-timer stands with a much older old-timer, Stephen Charnock, who in 1670 penned these words, ‘What comfort would it be to pray to a god that, like the chameleon, changed color every moment? Who would put up a petition to an earthly prince that was so mutable as to grant a petition one day, and deny it another?’
None! Not me! O. Lord! Your will be done, in earth as it is in heaven!
Lionel, great post indeed, brother!
Personally, I don’t see any contradictions between the Biblical instances you’ve brought up and the verses Stephen mentioned. All of it is God’s word and he will not contradict himself. No doubt, though, the verses you brought up (like the passage in Exodus) are tricky. No getting past that.
I believe that since man is finite and God is infinite, the Bible sometimes has to speak of God in anthropomorphisms. Therefore, the Bible depicts God in terms of human experiences of knowledge and emotion. We must also recognize that the immutable and sovereign God deals appropriately with changes in human behavior. When they sin or repent of sin, God “changes his mind” with regard to the blessing or punishment appropriate to the situation – all in accordance with His sovereign and eternal purposes. AS far as Moses is concerned, I think his intercessory prayer itself was also part of God’s will and purpose. Why? To show His grace! And the effectiveness of Moses’ intercession can only be described by characterizing the LORD in human terms: He relents and withholds the total judgment He had threatened. It’s quite beautiful!
Anyway, R.C. Sproul has a fascinating sermon where he proves philosophically how it is absolutely impossible for God to change. I think it’s called The Immutability of God and I highly recommend it to anyone searching out for answers in this area.
Lionel, from the ones I’ve read so far, this is far and away the best post you’ve ever written. I love honest inquiry.
After Stephen, D. A. and Aussiejohn I’m not sure there’s too much else for me to say. AMEN BOYS!
Joe,
LOL! This is garbage bro! LOL!!!! I hear Mr. Henry but does that make us simply but passive participants in creation that can really effect no change.
Mav,
I would challenge the “born with faith” statement a bit or better yet can you explain that a bit more.
Jon,
What part are you affirming the hell part of changing my theology or this one?
Burning Woman,
You have said something nice to me, for the first time I believe. What a glorious day this is going to be. But for real, thank you.
D.A, Stephen and Aussie. I have to interact with you guys individually.
Stephen,
You said:
The Bible makes it very clear God cannot and does not change:
Numbers 23:19, Job 14:4-5, Job 23:13, Psalm 33:11, Psalm 139:16, Proverbs 19:21, Isaiah 14:24, Malachi 3:6, James 1:17, Hebrews 13:8 and those are just the ones off the top of my head.
I understand God does not change, put can we move God’s heart. In other words let me ask this. Exactly what did Jesus mean when He said “your faith has made you whole”? So if they did not have the faith would God still have moved anyway?
Lionel,
I have been a little busy at work and at home and have not had a chance to comment lately, but I have been reading.
In regards to this post I don’t think our faith moves God I believe it moves us. When we place our trust in Him we become a part of something He was already going to accomplish. Noah, Moses even the disciples excercised their faith which caused THEM to follow God’s will. In other words if Moses did not have faith God would have still led his people out of Egypt. If abraham didn’t have faith then God will have stil created a nation for Himself. If the Apostles by chance lacked faith the Gospel would have still spread. Their faith caused these men to be a part of God’s plan but their lack of faith would not have changed His plan.
Anyhoo that is my two cents.
Aussie John,
I wished I had your insight and wisdom, and communicating skills, not to mention graciousness. Let me ask can the immutableness of God be in His divine nature and charachter but also His heart and mind be moved in a response to our actions? Is our faith and decisions really real?
D.A,
I love that comment brother. But let me ask if Moses would have not interceded, would God had destroyed Israel, the reason I ask is because God still would have been faithful to the promise by starting over with Moses.
Carey,
I agree brother. I believe that God’s purposes and will can never be limited by the hands of men. However, would Romans 4 be about Abraham or some other man or woman? Was it really Abraham’s faith or was it God’s purpose. If Abraham would have not left his pagan father would he be listed in the hall of faith and our father in the faith?
Lionel,
The good part about God is we don’t really have to know the answer to that question. But if I had to guess I would venture to say that it is very possible it could have been someone else listed as the father of faith. But that is something I can’t say for sure. It’s just another thing where I am glad He is in control and I ‘m not.
nope lionel, i can’t explain it better.
i can’t explain it at all. i don’t know when God dealt to every man the measure of faith, so i assume it’s a gift He gave to us all at some point in our lives. i could be wrong about it being at birth because it doesn’t say that in the Scriptures but i do know He dealt faith to EVERY man.
Mav,
Given the full context I believe that is reference to the redeemed of God, not each individual human. There is a “for” (which is an explanation) then a conjuction so to say in “so we” starts to lead into the spiritual gifts that build up the body. I don’t believe that every is every single person but every single believer.
Carey,
I understand that there is no risk with God but is there real risk with us. For example God will build His church, His desire was to build it with the 12+1, but what if they forfeited? I know that Christ promises the building of His church but could the 12 be disqualified in any real sense. In other words, can God change His plans and His hands by our obedience/disobedience or faith/faithlessness?
Titus 1:1 seems to indicate that faith is given to those “chosen” by God.
2 Thessalonians 3: 3 says that not all have faith, so I would propose that faith is a gift given by God to his chosen ones at the time of their salvation. Not a physical birth, but a spiritual birth.
In the Romans 12:3 passage the immediate context is stated in verse 1. Paul addresses the brethren, those in Christ regarding service to God. So we can conclude that God has given a measure of faith to all of those in Christ.
In Romans 10:17 we are told that faith comes by hearing the words of Christ, given further evidence that faith is a gift given at the New Birth.
As far as putting the mystery to rest, well I can’t, God does not change and he does answer the prayer of the righteous and we can go without if we do not ask, or if we ask with wrong motives.
It’s kind of funny that when the church was praying Peter’s release that they were surprised that he showed up!
Hutch,
Shoot, that was my next verse. Now I am going to have to find another. Paul even says that the Philippians prayer would be for the good of his present condition, he expected God to move due to their prayers, not in spite of the lack their of.
Lionel,
I like Judges 14:5 that displays that God still works providentially in the life of men. I not sure how he works it all our but it works. I thank your questions are valid and man has a hard time answering those.
The same things takes place in the life of Hezekiah.(Isa. 38) God says you will die he prays and fifteen yeasr are added to his life. I like Stephen’s answer though…….
At the end of the day I have to stand on Romans 8:28.
“So if they did not have the faith would God still have moved anyway?”
God knew beforehand whether or not they would have faith so the way He moves does not change.
So it was pretty frivilous for Moses to intercede because God’s mind was already made, so the relenting wasn’t really a relenting. Or even more our prayers for God to move on our behalf really doesn’t mean much because God’s mind is already made in His movement.
This is what I wrestle with because if his mind is made up then why pray. If this is true shouldn’t we just trust that he has it all worked out already for our good.
If we take him knowing before hand that we would have faith doesn’t that poke stabs at unconditonal election?
Lionel,
It appears to me that some of your correspondents have concluded that saving faith and the faith which God yearns to see displayed by our prayers and decisions are one and the same. Saving faith is a gift from God, the other is our response towards Him, the latter is trust in God’s faithfulness, as Jesus demonstrated in His prayer in Matt. 26:39. Paul also in 2 Cor. 12:7-9.
The problem is that most seem to think that a positive answer is a sign that God has answered prayer, but I want to assure you that, as many prayers as I have had answered with a resounding “YES!”, there have been many more answered with a sovereign “NO!”. The reason for both is in 1 John 5:14.
Tied very closely to 5:14 is 3:21-24, “Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; and whatever we ask we receive from Him, BECAUSE WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS AND DO THE THINGS THAT ARE PLEASING IN HIS SIGHT.”
What is/are His commandments and that which is pleasing in His sight? V.23, “THIS IS HIS COMMANDMENT, that we BELIEVE IN THE NAME OF HIS SON JESUS CHRIST, AND LOVE ONE ANOTHER, JUST AS HE COMMANDED US.”
Then we have v.24, “The one who KEEPS HIS COMMANDMENTS abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
The question we need to ask is, When I pray, is there anything in me which clouds my relationship with the Son, such as a lack of love towards a brother/sister, or brethren?
Nowhere in Scripture does God give His people cart blanche to ask according to our sin-tainted will, such as for selfish reasons, but He does give great latitude in praying for what is according to His will, such as the good of His people, and anything else which we know, from Scripture, are in accordance with his will, the forgiveness of sins, the sanctification of the soul, comfort in trial, the needful supply of our wants, grace that we may do our duty, wisdom to direct and guide us, deliverance from the evil, the involvement of of His Spirit in our service servants, and, of course, our salvation.
Aussie,
Thanks a bunch. I believe I see it now. Thanks so much for the connection.
Lionel,
I second that motion was just simply that I’m glad to see that you are starting to see through some more of mens traditions that are not based on the truth of God’s word. That’s why I now avoid labels (Christian Universalist, Armenist, Calvinist, etc.). Let’s just continue to seek for more truth through prayer and study of God’s Word and not allow mens traditions to make the word of God of no effect.
Jon Paden
“So it was pretty frivilous for Moses to intercede because God’s mind was already made, so the relenting wasn’t really a relenting. Or even more our prayers for God to move on our behalf really doesn’t mean much because God’s mind is already made in His movement.”
Not necessarily. God knows what is going to happen in the future, but that doesn’t mean our prayers are frivolous. God works in mysterious ways. Who’s to say one of the ways God chooses to work won’t be through our prayers?
It doesn’t mean God changes His mind. In fact, the Bible says in Numbers 23:19 that God doesn’t change his mind. I don’t think Moses would have written Exodus 32 and then later contradicted himself by writing Numbers 23:19. The truth is, like I said, some things about God may just be a mystery on this side of Heaven.
We have a tendency to think of God in human terms. It’s understandable. We’re humans. God even sent Christ to be a man among us although the primary reason was soteriological. God is hard for us to wrap our heads around because He transcends the limited logic of this world.
The account with Moses is a bit of an anthropomorphism. The purpose is not to bluff, because the connotations involve a presumption that God doesn’t necessarily know what Moses will do. What happened is what God intended to happen all along, God gave Moses a lesson on what his attitude needed to be as the leader of the Hebrews. Moses demonstrated a correct understanding of who God is in the face of a threat for God to behave incoherently according to the understanding of this world and off himself unto death with regard to his standing with God.
God was not incoherent however. Perhaps He would have destroyed Israel if Moses had not responded as he did. i suggest that the one who changed was not God, but Moses. We have a good theology in terms of individuals, but God also deals with groups of people as corporate entities and our theology in that regard is a bit sketchy. Perhaps it is because our modern thinking is so existential and humanistic that we have lost strong notions of corporate identities. Moses was placed by God in the position to speak for Israel. Inasmuch as we honor God, it goes well for us. Inasmuch as we turn from God, it doesn’t go well for us. God doesn’t change – we do. This is true for groups of people as well as individuals.
However, I believe that only one outcome was possible because there was only one outcome; and as Creator, God planned this outcome. God didn’t need to see what kind of faith Moses had because He gave him the faith that he had and was using this event to give him greater faith.
Finally, I joke with my kids to teach them what faith is. It is not simply believing something to be true. If so, then if we have greater faith, we may have to exert ourselves in order to believe harder. I scrunch up my face, grunt until my face turns red and say in an strained voice, “I’m believing it really, really hard!” That’s not faith. A better word in English to capture the connotations of the word is “trust”. I can look at a normal chair and trust it to hold my weight. if I have seen a large person get up from the chair, then I can be reasonably more certain that it will hold my weight. I don’t think about it, but I simply sit. An old prank is to play on this trust by holding a chair for someone and then pulling it out from under them just as they sit down. Trust between people is built over time by demonstrated acts of trustworthiness. God was building an impressive list of acts he had done to demonstrate His trustworthiness. Throughout the scriptures, these acts are referenced back to for this very purpose. Our faith grows over time as we see God work in our lives. We will miss the activity of God if we don’t interact with Him and fail to build this trust in Him. Moses had an idea of the graciousness of God even though he was the instrument of the revelation of the Law. Moses trusted God’s graciousness when he offered himself up to God’s judgment with the rest of the Hebrews in verse 31.
That’s faith.