I will preface this by stating quite clearly that I am not trying to stir the pot. I am first repenting to some brother and sisters that I kept at a distance because of their position on “women teaching from the pulpit”. After much prayer and study of the scripture, my stance has swung the middle of this debate. This is mostly due to my slow gravitation toward smaller more simple assemblies. I think the biggest issue in this conversation is the “office of teaching pastors” and “pulpits”. Neither are biblical and both are the reasons used to defend this issue. It become an issue of “authoritative teaching” something the bible never talks about and is compound of the phrase in 1 Timothy 2.
In other words because I am now leaning towards a particaptory, all priest are ministers position my perspective has changed tremendously. Or again my eclessiology has influenced my hermenuetic. I am not here to defend “women in the pulpit” (because no one belongs there) nor am I advocating women elders/pastor/shepherds (I believe those functions are clearly for males with a certain level of maturity).
So that is where I am. My only other position would be that of the women silent because I believe if this 1 Timothy stance is transcendent with no cultural influence then I also would have to believe the others that are written off as cultural are also transcendent. In closing this isn’t to stir up controversy but to communicate my heart on an issue. And no I am not a liberal or a feminist or an egalitarian or anything else. I am a believer who feels that this issue is a matter of Ephesian culture just like head coverings, women asking questions in the gathering and other such issues. God bless and we can dialogue about this if you like, but name calling will be ignored. I leave you with what happens to be one of the most shaping passages of the New Covenant community
12 Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, 13 bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. 14 And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. 15 And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God. 17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
Yeah this little thorn tries to raise it’s head up every now and then here at “The Bridge” I am with you on this one.
Where 2 or 3 have gathered together in My Name …. – so, does this mean a woman has to keep silent in a gathering of more than 2 men? – anywhere?, wherever an assembly of believers gathers? – is this not a Church?
Oh – they only have to keep silent just in the building and behind the pulpit, both terms that have NOTHING to do with Christianity, both having to do with putting new wine into OLD wineskins!!!
We say, we think you would be happier elsewhere.
hey bro,
so what’s the middle ground position? you didn’t state it…
thanks for clarifying…
q
Q,
My middle ground is that all (women, men and children) can do what the verse I provided commands us to do.
“teaching and admonishing one another”.
Does that answer your question?
Mark,
I am asking those same questions and when the discussion leads that way the first thing I hear is “that isn’t really teaching” and “it is teaching as if to have authority”, or “this means teaching in the local church” Paul says neither of these at all. It is also funny that the other commands (not wearing expensive clothes, jewelry and braided hair, man praying with hands lifted” are all written off as cultural and I ask “when does this become cultural and who gives you a right to make these imperatives cultural” but at the same time the commands below become transcedent.
The tension of this matter is always a major issue. I have been reading a postition paper on this matter by Irving Baptist Church.(http://www.irvingbible.org/fileadmin/pdf/special_sections/women_ministry/women_ministry_IBC.pdf)
I wrestle with that issue myself. I to believe that the passage of scripturee was wrote in the indictive mood denoting that is mainly for the women of that time.(I;m sure that some will disagree) Now I do understand that that can be problematic. My foothold on that stance is light but that is how it is. But I do not think that women should pastor a church.
Neither am I an egalitarian but I want the truth to me live out in every area of my life. I have been searching this topic for a few years and I see the validity in both areas. So one of the views are wrong but which one? Still searching…..
Let me propose a question:
For those men who are pastors or preachers ofthe gospel would you preach in a church where there was a women pastor? (such as the one that Lionel spoke of a couple of months ago. One committed to the faith and the leading of the people.)
Women pastors are unbiblical. All are to teach however and each other.
Lionel here comes the heat. I guess I am prophesying or something that many are going to call you a heretic for you position without really reading or seeing your heart. If is a sad thing in Christendom that many think that you are unregenerate becasue you question things on a regular basis that they defend as truth. Not saying that women should or should not preach but proposing a greater observation of the scripture.
Lionel-
I marvel at how much I used to be enamored with the so called “Pulpit Ministry” even to the point of believing that I was “called” to that at one time!
Now I firmly believe a “pulpit ministry” actually achieves the opposite goal of bringing believers to maturity and Christlikeness.
We are told that our meetings are to be times of mutual edification in order to build each other up in the faith.
We know that there is no mention of any type of structure that would come anywhere near resembling the structure of a one man pulpit and a seated priesthood followed by so much of the church today.
Let’s determine if a pulpit ministry achieves the goal of building up the saints and preparing them to do the work of the ministry:
1. It ahs historically been used along with a misinterpretation of 1 Timothy 2:5-15 and 1 Corinthians 14:34-36 to silence women and keep them from functioning fully as a part of the priesthood of believers.
2. It has all but silenced the other teachers and prophets and relegated them to teaching a small group or Sunday school class with the understanding that what they say is not nearly as important as what the educated theolog says.
3. Part of the building up process is for all believers new and old to be encouraged to exercise their gifts and grow in their gifts the pulpit ministry effectively blocks this from happening as it is in the gathering as described in Corinthians where all the saints are encouraged to edify one another and where two or three are given the opportunity to bring a message from God’s Word with the examples/elders and the other prophets/teachers judging the message for accuracy.
4. It has perpetuated the clergy/laity mis-defination/myth.
5. It perpetuates a lot of the legalism and authoritarianism that is greatly on the rise in many local churches, some recent cases within Reformed Baptist Churches underscores this plague as “elders” and I used that term loosely have even counseled wives to leave and divorce their husbands who refused to do something the “elders” instructed. This is the exact opposite of what the Lord Jesus Christ commanded us about marriage. Yes, I know this is an extreme and disturbing example (it is true BTW) and I understand that most elders who think they have authority over others are despots of a lesser degree.
6. It runs contrary to the priesthood of believers under the New Covenant and perpetuates the idea that somehow these men are secondary intermediaries between men and God.
I could go on and on, yet again I am amazed at how similar the slaughtering of our sacred cows is taking place.
Like I mentioned before, like you I am not arguing for women in the pulpit as I do not feel anyone should be behind the pulpit-it is a non-issue once proper ecclesiology is in place.
BTW: That is my issue with the Family Integrated Church Movement, while having everyone meet together as a local assembly is a good thing, most still cling to the one man pulpit ministry/elder authoritarianism errors that actually make them some of the most legalistic in regards to silencing women.
Has the pulpit error achieved the goal of making mature disciples?
I will let you be the judge.
I agree with what you said on six.
BTW:
I believe that both 1 Timothy 2:5-15 and 1 Corinthians 14:34-36 and still vital and binding passages for us today as a part of the Law of Christ.
I just believe they are being misinterpreted as my other extensive posts describe and explain.
1 Tim 2:5-15 says those who wish to teach in order to exercise authority over others, in order to act as an intermediary between God and men are to remain silent. (This is what the former priestesses of Artemis still clung to as they learned proper doctrine in Christ). This can still happen today as a new convert might take some of their old beliefs from there previous life and attempt to teach it in the church-they are to be kept silent until they learn the truth accurately.
This still applies today.
1 Corinthians 14:34-36 is Paul repeating part of the Corinthians letter back to them and then correcting their wrong idea that women are not to speak in the assembly and must only ask questions of their husbands at home.
If Paul was here today he would do the same thing a large number of gatherings!
Since it is part of the Law of Christ, we must do the same and correct these practices that are contrary to God’s Word.
See below:
1. I hope you understand that after reading my other numerous posts in this thread and others that I am not arguing for one female pastor to have a one woman pulpit ministry any more than I am arguing for a one man pulpit ministry. God’s Word knows nothing about that structure.
NOTE: Some people who argue that 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 does not teach that a woman cannot speak/teach in the assembly do so because they do not believe that vs. 34-35 were in Pails letter. That simply is not true and I will not go into all the details as to why as that is not the focus of this conversation. Suffice it to say, that I fully believe that vs. 34-35 are in 1 Corinthians Chapter 14 and in the exact location as written and carry the weight of Apostolic authority as the very Words of God.
BTW: I asked about the chapter breaks before to underscore the fact that the entire letter of 1 Corinthians runs together as one long letter. Paul was the king of run on sentences! The chapter breaks are made often times in places where Paul is still finishing his thought. Many times the next chapter is not a new thought at all.
1 Corinthians 14:34-35, “Let your women keep silent in the churches: For it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also says the law. And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husband at home: For it is a shame for a woman to speak in the church.”
How is the letter of 1 Corinthians laid out?
This is essential to understanding women in ministry. In chapters 1 through 4 the Apostle Paul is mainly writing about his ministry, reproof, his visit, explanations, and Timothy. In chapters 5 thru 6 he writes concerning things he heard were going on in the church at Corinth. But in chapters 7 through 14, Paul was responding to questions and statements that the Corinthians wrote to him. Let’s take a look:
1 Corinthians 7:1 “Now concerning things whereof YOU WROTE UNTO ME…”
1 Corinthians 8:1 “Now concerning things offered unto idols…”
1 Corinthians 12:1 “Now concerning spiritual gifts…”
Paul steps through the concerns, statements, and questions that they have written to him. In 1 Corinthians 12:1 Paul finally gets to the questions and matters about spiritual gifts and says, “Now concerning spiritual gifts…” and states that the “manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man (every person male and female)” (verse 7). He mentions different types of manifestations including the word of wisdom, the word of knowledge, tongues and the interpretation of tongues, etc. Pay particular attention to the words “every man, each man, all members” etc. In these cases, the Greek word for “men or man” means people, humans–not only males, but both genders. The word “all” in the Greek means ALL, not half, not a certain few, not just males, but ALL!
Before we go any further, certain truths must be revisited
First, the church is not a building, but God’s people as individuals, two or more meeting together creating “church.” It’s an assembly of believers, collectively the Temple of God (see Colossians 1:24 and 2 Corinthians 6:16).
Secondly, that “there is neither male nor female (in the church): for you are all one (type of being born of God) in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3:28).
The ironic thing is that the Apostle Paul, who wrote these truths stated above, seems to contradict 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 just a few sentences later. Here is the reason for the contradiction: Those statements (Scriptures) in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 never ORIGINATED with Paul. Paul only REITERATED them as a rebuke to the Corinthian church in the letter we now read as Scripture. The Corinthians originally wrote them TO Paul. Paul told them how absurd it was for them to say that the Law commands women to be silent in the church – THEY ARE THE CHURCH. Paul said that they WERE NOT commands from the Lord but “ignorance” of what they were teaching God’s people. (We will explore this in a moment).
We have been taught that 1 Corinthians 11 has to do with women and men having their heads covered or uncovered, but it’s not just that. Paul was setting them up to show them just how foolish they were in saying that God wants “the women to keep silent in the church.” Let’s examine this and follow this thought through to its proper end.
In 1 Corinthians 11:4 notice that Paul jumps right in about the “head covering” and says, “Every man (this case literally means male in the Greek) praying or prophesying having his head covered, dishonors his head.” But in verse 5 he says, “But EVERY WOMAN (FEMALE) that prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head…” NOTICE THAT THE WOMEN ARE PRAYING AND PROPHESYING! The whole section of 1 Corinthians 11:1-16 is to establish that ladies (in their culture) when they prayed or prophesied in church needed to have their heads covered, NOT that they couldn’t pray or prophesy at all!
Paul then talks about the spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12. Notice that “the word of wisdom, the word of knowledge, speaking in tongues and the interpretation” all require SPEAKING speaking in the church, and the speaking is done by ALL, both men and women. “And the Spirit dividing to every man (person, male and female) severally as He will” (v11).
As soon as Paul finished establishing that the body of Christ is “one” (meaning, nobody is excluded no male or female excluded from the gifts, callings and offices of God) he then said that, “God set some” some who? Some males? No! Some of the members of the body of Christ because there is no “male or female” when it comes to being an apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, teacher, moving in the gifts of the spirit, miracles, healings, speaking in tongues or anything in Christ (See 1 Corinthians 12:28-31.)
Then in 1 Corinthians 13 Paul shows the “more excellent way” to move in the anointing of the office and the gifts that God has given us.
When Paul reaches 1 Corintians14, he focuses on “speaking in tongues” and “speaking in unknown tongues”. In verse 4 he says that, “He that speaks in an unknown tongue edifies himself; but he that prophesies EDIFIES THE CHURCH.” Paul wants the whole church to edify the WHOLE church. He then says in verse 23, “If therefore the WHOLE CHURCH (EVERY MALE AND EVERY FEMALE) come together into one place, AND ALL (ALL MALES AND ALL FEMALES) SPEAK WITH TONGUES…” and continues in verse 24-26, “If ALL (MALES AND FEMALES) PROPHESY… let all things be done unto edifying.”
In 1 Corinthians 14:27-31 Paul sets the ground rules for “speaking in the church:”
IF ANY MAN (any person, male or female) SPEAK:
Unless there is NO INTERPRETER (male or female)…
Let the (male or female) PROPHETS SPEAK…
If anything be revealed to ANOTHER THAT SITS BY (whether male or female)…
For you may ALL (male and female) PROPHESY ONE BY ONE, THAT ALL (male and female) MAY LEARN AND ALL (male and female) may be exhorted.
I pointed out earlier that Paul was responding to the things that the Corinthian church wrote to him? Paul actually used their words in his letter when he addressed some of their concerns and said they were foolish and they weren’t of God. We have come to the place of 1 Corinthians 14:34-35.
While Paul wrote his response (1 Corinthians) BACK to the Corinthian church, he previously read their letter that they sent to him – 1 Corinthians 7:1, “Now concerning things whereof YOU WROTE UNTO ME….” In fact, he wrote down parts of their letter back to them and rebuked them for their foolish teachings.
Paul established through his entire letter and particularly in chapters 11 thru 14 that there is no difference between a male and female being appointed and/or receiving the gifts, callings and offices of Christ. Before he wrote down their “foolish scripture” that they wrote to him, he wrote this preface: “God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints” (1 Corinthians 14:33). Then in verses 34-35 he repeated what they first wrote to him: “Let your women keep silent in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also says the Law. And if they will learn any thing let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.”
Immediately after Paul wrote this, the next word he wrote was, “WHAT?” (v36). In the Greek, the word “what” is a negative disclaimer. We would say, “What, are you nuts?” Paul said, “What? Came the word of God out from you? Or did it come unto you only?” (v36). Meaning, that the previous statement that he wrote from the letter he received from them referring that women are to keep silent in the church was not from God at all. In fact, it was pure silliness. He just finished writing in a few paragraphs before this what we now know as 1 Corinthians 11:1-16, establishing that when women prophesy, teach or speak in the church they are to have their heads covered. “But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered….” needs to put on her head covering and then it would be acceptable (1 Corinthians 11:5).
Paul goes on to say, “If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that THE THINGS THAT I WRITE UNTO YOU ARE THE COMMANDS OF THE LORD, (NOT THE THINGS THAT YOU WRITE)” (1 Corinthians 14:37). Paul was saying that he was appointed to write the Scriptures and the Commands of God, not the Corinthian church.
Paul continues with: “If any man be ignorant (meaning the person who wrote this stupidity) let him be ignorant (if he does not acknowledge that what he wrote is not from the Lord”) (v38).
Paul then closes the subject and firmly establishes about males and females being in ministry and speaking in the church: “Wherefore, brethren (brethren does not mean male, it means ‘born out of the womb of God, born again’ — males and females), COVET TO PROPHESY AND FORBID NOT TO SPEAK WITH TONGUES” (v39).
Anyhow, that’s how I see it.
Bro. Lawrence D.-added this as further clarification and support:
Bro. Hutch and SOwen check out this quote from Walter Kaiser’s book “Toward An Exegetical Theology: Biblical Exegesis for Preaching & Teaching”. This comes from Section 3 entitled “Contextual Analysis: The Syntactical-Theological Method” on pages 76-77.
“And could it not be that the debated passage of I Corinthians 14:34-35 is a quote from the Rabbinic law? Surely is is not from the Old Testament, for the Old Testament nowhere states: ‘Women should keep silence….They are not permitted to speak, but should be in subordination as even the law says. If they desire to know anything, let them ask their husbands at home.’ Note, too, that Paul had commanded, as a matter of fact, that the Church should teach the women and let them learn (I Tim. 2:11). Furthermore, he had instructed that the women be allowed to speak and pray in Church ‘in like manner as the men’ (I Cor. 11:4-5; I Tim. 2:8-9) No wonder then that the immediate context of I Corinthians 14:36 blares out such a strong disclaimer of the Rabbinic restriction: ‘What! Are you men the only ones the Word of God has reached? Did the Word of God originate with you?”
Walter C. Kaiser is undoubtedly one of the most conservative theologians around. He’s no liberal or feminist. Because of the teaching found in his book, the things that Hutch has already mentioned, that Bro. Lionel has been addressing, and a committment I have to be honest with the Word of God, it has been impossible for me to maintain my position on the participation of women in the local gathering.
I still reserve eldership as a uniquely male role but other than that I can’t see any other true restriction on their involvement.
Back to me:
I know a lot of folks explain these verses as being cultural only, but I believe the cultural only approach can be a slippery slope with other portion of scripture.
great peice of writing brother Hutch
Brian-
Do you fee there is scriptural evidence for a pulpit ministry?
I can’t see that I have seen it in scripture. But Steven Lawson writes about Jofn Calvin and his appruse of the pulpit in his book The Expository Genius of John Calvin. He displayed that Calvin placed a large emphasis on the pulpit ministry. More so from the standpoint of the teaching aspect. Also Calvin was one of the main proponents of placing the pulpit in the center of the room.
I am convinced that wordpress needs to place spell check on the comment section. (LOL)
1, Mark R this is what they may have to deal
2, Hutch then you come with the hammer!
3, Lionel you heretic lol, Always reforming as it goes!
4, Once we get stuck it’s hard for changes in traditions!
5, The pulpit check it out in the o.t, i think they had it in the middle of the street. Once again or check in on Catholicism. I don’t see it in the n.t., wait I’ll keep checking on that lol.
Once again is it in the bible, what ever it may be in Lionel posts on any subjects is the point. 1 Thessalonians, 5:21.
Lionel, great post and I am still reading and enjoying your work.
Perhaps we can rightly say that the Reformation was a good start, but that much still needs to be “reformed” among those who consider themselves to be “reformed”.
constant reformation
Lionel-
You and Bro Lawrence D said:
“nor am I advocating women elders/pastor/shepherds (I believe those functions are clearly for males with a certain level of maturity).”
“I still reserve eldership as a uniquely male role but other than that I can’t see any other true restriction on their involvement.”
I still tend to agree with this, but I am wondering if we get rid of an unbiblical pulpit, full embrace the priesthood of the believer and get back to exemplary eldership not Gentile authoritarianism, do the verses that speak of elders make it crystal clear that it excludes women?
Correction:
Lionel-
You and Bro Lawrence D said:
“nor am I advocating women elders/pastor/shepherds (I believe those functions are clearly for males with a certain level of maturity).”
“I still reserve eldership as a uniquely male role but other than that I can’t see any other true restriction on their involvement.”
I still tend to agree with this, but I am wondering if we get rid of an unbiblical pulpit, fully embrace the priesthood of the believer, rightly interpret 1 Timothy 2:5-15 and I Corinthians 14:34-36, and get back to exemplary eldership not Gentile authoritarianism, do the verses that speak of elders make it crystal clear that it excludes women?
BTW: Where are the drive by posters? Most of the time when you discuss these issues you will usually have a number of them who will pop in and fire off some cheap shots.
they are off on the weekends!!!
I am enjoying the dialogue.
1. Thanks for commenting Ann.
2. Brian I believe that Lawson is a huge supporter of Calvin who was a huge supporter of the ecclelisology that I am combating.
3. DTG, YOU KNOW!!! LOL.
4. Hutch as always brother your insight is a delight.
To all, I have decided that I will question our traditions in light of the Scriptures and where the HOLY SPIRIT takes me I will go. I think we have a problem parroting those we love without questioning their leanings. Man like Lawson, Piper and Sproul perpetuates the ecclelsiology of the Reformers while there were other Reformers (the Anabaptist) that were Godly and much different. I will post more on this once I finish “The Reformers and their Stepchildren”.
Lionel,
Do you mean you don’t believe in “the sacred desk”? O! My oh my! There’s no hope for you
Brother Aussie,
You being in ministry and the wisdom you have what is your position on this sensitve issue.
Is all pulpit ministry ineffective in growing disciples? or, just unfaithful preaching in pulpits? What CJ Mahaney, Begg, and others who faithfully preach the scriptures?
How about woman wearing head coverings?
Or cursing people who don’t love the Lord?
Or selling ALL your possessions and giving EVERYTHING to the poor?
Or men raising their hands when they pray?
Or slaves having to obey their masters?
All commands – all rarely followed because someone (most prob a man) somewhere made a decision about those texts. Someone decided that Christians didn’t need to greet one another with a kiss or wear head coverings or curse people that don’t love the Lord. Somebody in our history decided certain Bible verses still apply and others don’t.
When someone says to a preacher – as long as you preach the Bible I’ll keep comming to your Church. All they are saying is, as long as you preach MY version of the Bible I’ll keep comming.
The idea that everbody approaches the Bible with baggage and agendas and lenses and I don’t is the ultimate in arrogance.
Hey,
I noticed my name mentioned up on one of Hutch’s posts.
Man I’ve been in a meeting all day. And it was a great meeting held by Steve Atkerson of the New Testament Reformed Foundation. http://www.NTRF.org
The very writer of the book ecclesia who Lionel you have brought up. I just wanted to say you guys need to log on to the above web site and click on articles to check out what they say. As far as Jon Zens I would like to say be careful who you all like. It seems that we find someone who supposedly knows something that fits our thinking and we run with it. Just be careful guys we are to exhort, admonish and warn one another.
Again I will not be able to respond to anyone as I will be away from my computer for a while. Love you all in Christ, Steven O.
Mark you are evcer so correct when you say we all approach the scripture with baggage. Even being reformed, we tend to view the scripture with presuppositions. It takes brothers and sisters sharing things with us, such as what has been taking place here, to really rock our domes.
Truth be told this is more of an example of what church should look like to me. Brother and sisters sharing with each other. No large professors or Gurus, just a group of believers going over the main sources in the Bible. So lets lose the gang of star preachers.(that was pun for all the old school hip hop heads.)
Smithbaptist,
Who says that “pulpit ministry” is infeffecitve? I know a woman that I work with who is a pastor of a church who are making disciples. I know women elders who are making disciples. Is the key making disciples? If that is the case whatever works should be the answer correct brother?
Steven,
It is funny that you say that. It seems that you have done the same thing. You have found someone that agrees with you and thus recommened a link to read their articles. How exactly does that work brother?
Mark R,
You said:
“All commands – all rarely followed because someone (most prob a man) somewhere made a decision about those texts. Someone decided that Christians didn’t need to greet one another with a kiss or wear head coverings or curse people that don’t love the Lord. Somebody in our history decided certain Bible verses still apply and others don’t.”
When I used this arguement I was told “the word is the word”. I said that is true so what makes you say one is cultural and one isn’t I asked if those were imperatives or options. We pick and choose and I don’t understand why. I believe that is an inconsistent hermeneutic but hey I am not a prized theologian.
Steven-
My viewpoints are arrived primarily from studying the scripture. Jon Zens, Carl Ketcherside, Dr. Dennis Swift are just some of the men I have used as sources. I do not necessarily agree with everything that any one individual teaches or believes.
In the past I have learned from Walvrood, MacArthur, Sproul and a host of pastors who I know personally.
I have recently learned a lot from the men and women who have posted on this forum.
Just one small word of unsolicited advice, take it for what its worth: Always take a hard look at anyone who tries to make you feel that it is wrong to read differing viewpoints.
You as a born again child of God will be led by the Holy Spirit into all truth and you will progressively be conformed into the image of Christ and praise the Lord when you see Him, you will be like Him for all eternity.
Not because of what any one man or women teaches, but because you are Christ’s and have been sealed unto the day of redemption.
Lionel,
Brother! I don’t think I need answer at length because, from what you have written in your blog, you would find that we think very much alike, including eldership.
I believe in the priesthood of ALL believers, and I find no where in Scripture where it teaches that Holy Spirit has the ear of one sex more than the other.
No matter who speaks, teaches, exhorts, whether orally or on the written page, it is the morally binding responsibility of EVERY believer to be a good Berean, and check for themselves, what has been taught against the Scripture.
Bro. Hutch,
My first reaction to your questions would be to say that “I don’t know.” I’m not sure that, as you said, ” if we get rid of an unbiblical pulpit, fully embrace the priesthood of the believer, rightly interpret 1 Timothy 2:5-15 and I Corinthians 14:34-36, and get back to exemplary eldership not Gentile authoritarianism, do the verses that speak of elders make it crystal clear that it excludes women?”
I’m not sure that the exclusion of women from leadership is actually due to any of the above. The grounding, in my opinion, rest solely in I Timothy 3 in the fact that the male gender is used emphatically throughout the passage, as the qualilfications are laid out. For instance, I own “The Word: The Bible From 26 Translations” and only the ABUV or “The New Testament of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, American Bible Union Version (John A. Broadus et al) renders verse 1 as “if anyone” rather than “if a man”. But even then, the rest of the passage sticks with everything refering to a man. In other words, even verse 1 in that version would read, “This is a true saying, If anyone longs for the office of bishop, he desires a good work.”
I do believe that these other things that you mentioned were added on to make the case weightier. But I don’t feel they actually make the case.
From the heart and from what I believe the bible teaches, I can’t say I believe that tradition and prejudice are what has led me to my position on women in leadership roles in the “church”. I am convinced by scripture that it is God’s design.
I also don’t think that the regeneration of the Holy Spirit, which establishes the priesthood of all believers, erases the distinctive personality make-ups that exists between men and women. What I mean is that men and women are still different. Women still have different tendencies, emotionalism being the most often mentioned, (no offense ladies) than men. I believe that God made us that way. I believe that we, therefore, have different roles because it fits the way God made us. We are different but equal. As a matter of fact, that’s where I think the issue of leadership roles becomes one of contention.
Let’s be honest, every disadvantaged group in the world, would not be considered so if they were treated as equals. There would never have been a need for any of the famous social movements of this country’s history, if people would have been willing to treat one another as equals. If in the church we didn’t have the false distinction of clergy/laity that causes grave inequalities, would anybody be trying to “usurp” anything? I don’t think so. If the ladies were viewed as spiritual equals and “eldership” was looked at as a function in the church and not a special status, who would care who was who as long as all were being edified? No Christian would care.
Look at the first potential disunity causing problem that arose in the Body. Acts 6:1. What was the problem? Inequality in treatment. Wow! Notice that 7 men and no women were appointed to address the problem. No woman stood up and said, “How come you didn’t choose any women for that position?”. How do we know that no woman complained. Verse 5 tells us that “the saying pleased the whole multitude.” And do you know why? Because the men were only there to fulfill a function in the Body not to assume some elevated position. And the women were given the equality that they had a right to.
Hutch, I hope I answered something with all that. Solely male leadership can still be established by rightly divided scripture. But when done with “the whole counsel of God”, no false distinctions or inequalities of spiritual worth would exist.
Hey guys goodmorning,
Lionel, I have come to my conclusions from the scripture. Not a man. As a matter of fact I had a disagreement with Steve Atkerson on some things. The articles I refer to have to do with what the scripture is saying. I just want us all to be careful. That’s the way I should have put it. Man I was in the presence of a charismatic man who knew the word of God and such. Yet the whole time I was listening I felt the Lord warning me. I went to this dudes house in MO. only as a favor for a friend who wanted to visit. Needless to say after 8 hours of listening. I say that because he wouldn’t stop talking I got out of the house and called on the elders of where I was fellowshipping asking for prayer and in case something happened to us to know what to do. He had some teaching somewhat like Watchman Nees except he conformed it to himself. He kept saying he was right and etc. even to the point of saying Joseph Smith wasn’t that bad. Needless to say I got my friend out of that apartment and told him let’s go. Two days later two prominent leaders from that movement came out of it and exposed them for their false teaching. So my point is many men out there make a great sounding brass sound and inside they are wolves in sheep clothing. There are many false teachers out there and this reform we are in will bring them out. We are warned in the word by Jesus Himself. The whole feminism movement that has infiltrated the church is getting us all off track. The very fact that the box church has made wimps out of men has caused the women to have to rise up and take up the mantle God has for the men of the church. I am not against women praying, singing or prophecying in the assembly. If you all would read my comments on last weekends post you would see that. I am saying that 1 Cor. 14 could be argued all day long from the standpoint of mens wisdom. Yet unless the Holy Spirit says to me otherwise I will not go against scripture. Now I will not tell a woman not to speak in assembly. I feel that she would know by the example of the other women in our group. A lot of women have and are being abused by men everyday. If the men of God were out proclaiming the gospel like we are all called to do then maybe we could see this turned around. Real Christian men don’t abuse but submit. I think I said enough.
So yes a woman can pray in the assembly
yes a woman can prophecy in the asssembly
no women don’t have to wear head coverings PERIOD
Should women teach or speak in the assembly outside of singing, praying or prophecying …not according to Pauls commandment from God.
Who should the women teach? The older should teach the younger.
Now if this offends anyone or upsets you I am sorry this is my way of seeing the scriptures.
Am I against others who don’t agree NO!!!!! I love all and even Paul and Pete had their disagreements. Paul and Barnabas also. Just like yesterday I felt something was said by Steve Atkerson that I blatantly know was against scripture, but I left it alone. Until the Lord takes the scales off our own eyes as He did with Paul then we could carry this the rest of our lives. This is not a agree to disagree thing. This is where I am not going to point out the splinter in someone elses eye when I have a plank in my own. And vice versa………………………AMEN…..Steven O.
Bro. Sowen you typed:
“Should women teach or speak in the assembly outside of singing, praying or prophecying …not according to Pauls commandment from God.
Who should the women teach? The older should teach the younger.”
(BLD) I have a question. Where are the older women when they teach the younger other than in the assembly?
Bro. Lawrence D.-
As mentioned, I still tend to agree that the eldership even exemplary eldership remains exclusively male.
Thank you for your response and insights.
Steven-
Prophecying is not teaching?
Are you saying your position is that when we get rid of the pulpit and function according to the biblical Corinthian pattern of two or three bringing a message, that a women cannot participate it that?
-or- are you saying they can participate in that, but just cannot function as an elder?
Just asking for clarification-not finding fault.
Not that it matters, although I am sure it is clear by now that my position is that women did clearly participate in the meetings, and can participate, but that they most likely did not function as elders.
To Hutch and Bro. Lawrence,
The women would probably be teaching separately during the week. As the men would be teaching on the actual day of the assembly. We and I need to realize there were more than one meeting during the week in the New Testament. I am just saying it seems that on the day when all are gathered in a 1Cor. setting that the men did the speaking. I do not see women elders in the New Testament. I am against women elders according to scripture. Jesus chose 12 men to be His first disciples not women. That is not a sexist view. I am not abvocating women not speaking at any function. As I stated there are times for the women to speak at other functions. Right now in the traditional church who is allowed to speak, teach etc.? Ususally one person. So I would rather be in a setting where we can all exercise our gifts than be where no only one does all of the talking. We have prayer meetings and the women speak. We have fellowship Lord’s Supper and the women speak. Again as I have stated in another post my wife gets word from God and I have been given words of knowledge from women. So I feel I have made it clear where and when the women can and cannot speak. So I am going to leave it at that. Again, I appreciate the civility of this conversation with all of you.
You know what? Jesus is alive and if you are a believer you have a reason to celebrate ……………..Steven O.
Hey Lionel, I’m coming in late on this one, but hopefully you’ll see this anyways, because this has been an important issue for us.
You already know that we agree that there should be no pulpits or an “office of the pastorate”, so nothing much to add there, but you also wrote: “…nor am I advocating women elders/pastor/shepherds (I believe those functions are clearly for males with a certain level of maturity”.
What I’m wondering is, if you’ve truly let go of the mindset of any kind of leadership in the body being an office, (whether it’s pastors, or deacons, or elders…) than how can you turn around and say something like the above quote, because to me, that is essentially turning it into an office all over again.
If pastoring is not about having a title, but rather about having a heart for God’s people, how could women NOT be included? I think the key to remember is that there is not supposed to be a hierarchy, so that means that even if someone is gifted as a pastor, they are not automatically the “pastor” to everyone present at a given meeting (that only makes it into an office again…). So, if we keep in mind that there are appropriate, and innappropriate, ways for men and women to minister to one another, and we strive to stay within those boundaries, then God is able to use everyone to build up the body as the Spirit leads. It’s pretty much a common sense call, really… I mean, if a young woman is struggling with some issue in a relationship she’s in, who’s the better person to “pastor” her, me, or my wife?… If I, as a guy, am struggling with something personal in nature, is it better for me to be held accountable by a wiser, more mature man, or woman?… Simple. However, that doesn’t mean that I can’t be built up, blessed and encouraged by something that a female shares in a gathering of believers, and the same goes for my wife listening to a man share. As long as there is a healthy understanding of boundaries, then we don’t have to get hung up on who’s “authorized” to lead who, because we’re all called to be servants of Christ….
Many non-Christians in this day and age accuse the church, and rightly so, of being just one more example of a male-dominated, pyramid-shaped organization that gives lip service to the equality of women, but in practice often relegates them to being second-class citizens in God’s kingdom. Is my sin any more or any less than the my wife’s sin?… Did Christ pay a higher or lesser price for me than her on the cross? We are all equally dead in our sins before we meet Jesus. We are all equally alive in Him after he makes us new….
Daniel
Hey Daniel,
Thanks for the challenging questions. Here is an example from scripture that will allow me to answer your question the way I know best (or believe best)
Acts 20:
17 Now from Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called the elders of the church to come to him. ………28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood……
Here is what I believe.
1. The church is to be elder led (not ruled)
2. The bible never calls this an office (noun) translators do.
3. This function (not office) is male (at least as I can tell from all of the scriptures).
An office denotes authority a function denotes maturity. Elders are the mature among believers and the BELIEVERS follow them because of their maturity not their position. We do this voluntarily and with humility knowing that God has given them some form of responsibility (Hebrews 13). I believe in the local assembly there are those who God has gifted to shepherd the people of God but again that gift is no more important than the next gift and the person with this gifting is to submit to all others with their giftedness. However God has placed mature man to Shepherd God’s flock locally (1 Peter 5) I can’t deny that without denying scripture but this function is not one of authority (Mattew 20 and Matthew 23) but one of humble service. They are to shepherd knowing that they will give an account to God (Lance). They are not to be Lords as the Gentiles, but humble, servant centered men who are the wise and can protect from wolves inside and out. This is only accomplished by wisdom by life experience (elder being older men) and biblical insight and wisdom (the gift of teaching and knowledge) with all discernment.
I’d have to agree with all you just summarized, yet I’m still not seeing anything in what you wrote about that speaks to why it is that only men would be capable of things like: maturity, humble service, discernment (identifying wolves…), life experience, biblical insight and wisdom. I don’t see anything you mentioned as being intrinsically male. I will wholeheartedly say that the manner in which all of those giftings might be exercised may certainly be different depending on a person’s gender, but being a man is certainly not a prerequisite for a single one of them. Maybe you could clarify for me why you think it would be….
Daniel
Daniel & Lionel-
Regarding elders our positions are similar if not the same, but I am still stuck/undecided on the issue that Daniel raises and that I mentioned above:
“I am wondering if we get rid of an unbiblical pulpit, fully embrace the priesthood of the believer, rightly interpret 1 Timothy 2:5-15 and I Corinthians 14:34-36, and get back to exemplary eldership not Gentile authoritarianism, do the verses that speak of elders make it crystal clear that it excludes women?”
I am leaning towards the answer that if eldership is exemplary and a function of maturity and not office/authority then it really is a non-issue.
Thank you Hutch, your last line sums up perfectly what I was trying to say.
I’m realizing that it is a relatively easy thing for us to rid ourselves of handing out titles, assigning offices, and designating certain people as having official “leadership” capacities. Institutionalized hiearchy is fairly simple to dismantle.
It is a far more difficult thing to dismantle the mindsets that have been developed during may years that were spent in those hierarchical systems we are now attempting to leave behind. It is hard for many of us to just see leadership as simply being an example to others of what a life that belongs to Jesus looks like. – Daniel
Daniel,
I wasn’t igoring what you said, just trying to pray through and remain faithful to the scriptures.
I think that women should be allowd to be leaders in the church if the lord leads them to do so .
But what if you get someone in a church like Dennis Swift pastor of church of all nations in portland oregon who comes in claiming God whated him to have this church.
But Gossips and lies about members of his church behind there backs,decieves his people has no elders so they can’t fire him far anything he has been fined 6,000 dollers by a company in portland and pushes blame to someone else so he don’t have to pay or have something on his record.
He wants to be spotless and blameless, but we all fall short of the glory.
This pastor Dennis Swift just wants power, power, power and control over everyone.
I found out anyone who does not submit to him gets kicked out and no one is aloud to have contact with them agian
this is so wrong
joseph