Again here are the verses and questions to follow:
5 They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, 6 and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues 7 and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi by others. 8 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10 Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. 11 The greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
I am not going to try to expound I am going to ask some questions. These are serious things I am wrestling about.
1. Where does the bible say that one Christian has authority over the other.
2. How long does this authority lasts?
3. What frees one Chrisitan from being “under” another Chrisitian?
4. Who decides when one should be over and one should be under?
5. Does the one in authority, if he/she likes, have the right to keep the one under authority under authority perpetually?
6. Could there ever be a time when all Chrisitans meeting in an assembly become brothers and sisters on equal footing?
7. Did Peter have authority over the other 11?
8. Did Paul have authority over Timothy, Titus, Silas, Epaphorditus, Luke and others?
9. Does a Senior Pastor have authority over non-senior pastors and if so where is that biblically?
10. Finally what does the one in authority have the auhtority to do?
I look forward to your interaction.
You must want to move to another country man. You heretic lol
because that is what they would have called me a little time back for these same exact words and still do. The traditionalists will have your head! As i said before “Paul” never passed this “stuff” down we have now. Catholicism had it, then the reformation kept some of it. They didn’t leave all behind. 1 to 10 they can’t find any of them in the bible, maybe,e in the catechism. I’ll wait and see the answer myself when the traditions of men come up.
I am a mind of many voices brother DTG and though are end times may not reconcile brother you sparked something in me that I couldn’t overlook without being hypocritical. So I have you to blame!
1. Where does the bible say that one Christian has authority over the other.
It doesn’t
2. How long does this authority lasts?
See answer to question # 1.
3. What frees one Chrisitan from being “under” another Chrisitian?
See answer to question # 1.
4. Who decides when one should be over and one should be under?
See answer to question # 1.
5. Does the one in authority, if he/she likes, have the right to keep the one under authority under authority perpetually?
See answer to question # 1.
6. Could there ever be a time when all Chrisitans meeting in an assembly become brothers and sisters on equal footing?
See answer to question # 1.
7. Did Peter have authority over the other 11?
8. Did Paul have authority over Timothy, Titus, Silas, Epaphorditus, Luke and others?
See answer to question # 1.
9. Does a Senior Pastor have authority over non-senior pastors and if so where is that biblically?
See answer to question # 1.
-or-
What is a senior pastor?
-or-
Jesus is the Senior Pastor
10. Finally what does the one in authority have the auhtority to do?
See answer to question # 1.
1. Where does the Bible say one Christian has authority over another?
One thing I remember from my time in Reserve Officer Training, is that there are many different kinds of authority. I am not sure exactly which kind of authority you are looking for Lionel, so here are just a few verses that use the term “authority” in exploring relationships between Christians.
Paul does discuss authority between Christian husband and a wife.
1 Cor. 7:3 The husband must fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.
And between Christian men and women.
1 Cor 11:8 For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; 9 for indeed man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake. 10 Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11 However, in the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman.
1 Tim 2:12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
Paul was a Christian as far as I can tell and here he discusses his authority over the Christian church at Corinth.
2 Cor. 10:7 You are looking at things as they are outwardly. If anyone is confident in himself that he is Christ’s, let him consider this again within himself, that just as he is Christ’s, so also are we. 8 For even if I boast somewhat further about our authority, which the Lord gave for building you up and not for destroying you, I will not be put to shame,
2 Cor 13:10 For this reason I am writing these things while absent, so that when present I need not use severity, in accordance with the authority which the Lord gave me for building up and not for tearing down.
Titus, a Christian, was to speak and correct other Christians who were in error.
Titus 2:15 These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.
J.R,
The only problem is you are using 3 different greek words which have different definitions.
But I will tackle them as you laid them out. This should spark good conversation.
1. Would prove my case for mutual authority; however, this is between husband and wife and both possess the same authority. So that wouldn’t work because you don’t have that authority over my wife do you?
2. Secondly your next verse falls upon mutuality so both have authority over one another this would mean that would mean again that both are to be mutually submitted or share authority.
3. No Christian has this authority neither man or woman.
4. Who possess Paul’s authority today? You?
5. Same as number 4?
6. Again different word from “exousia” this word is actually a noun not a verb or adverb
Lionel, your mistake is that you are ascribing intent in my post that does not exist. You asked, “when does one Christian have authority over another?”
1. I don’t care whose “case” it proves, my goal was to post Scripture that was related to your question. Mutual or not, this passage says that married Christians have authority over their spouse. Right? So it would be false to say, as some did, that the Scripture rejects the notion of authority.
2. that is fine with that, but the answer is the same as above. There is still authority being exerted one over another.
3 & 4 What passage do you use to conclude that no one today has this same authority?
Paul was a Christian and he had authority over other Christians. An authority you are suggesting does not and never existed. So clearly you realize this passage says Paul, and his companions since it says our not my, had an authority over Christians. Still, I thought you believe that all Christians were the same in authority and value to God. Does that not apply to Paul? Why? How did you decide that Paul was the only super-Christian who held authority over others? What, in your mind, make him the only exception to the rule?
6. You did not say I could only speak of one kind of authority that relates to one specific Greek word, “exousia” Why did you only add that part later?
As far as I could tell you just asked, does the bible ever speak of one Christian having authority over another. I offered, without comment, some passages that speak about Christians having authority over others and you proceed to discount them based on a set of criteria not outlined in your first post. I still think they answer the question in the affirmative, but lets stick with how you changed the argument mid way thorough that the only authority that counts is from the one single Greek word you choose, “exousia”
Where does that specific word “exousia” appear in the passage you quoted in your original post? I see it talking of humility, but not authority? I don’t have time to read the Greek, my baby just woke up, so please tell me and I will check back in later brother.
PS
I know I am pushing a bit on this post, but I hope we know each other well enough by now to have a little fun with some give and take
lol or should i say, grinning @ hutch’s answers.
Lionel, I’m lost. where in the Bible does it say wives and husbands are equal in authority? I believe wives are equal to me when it comes to their value, dignity, self-worth. But doesn’t the Bible say wives “submit to your husbands?” Is there a verse that says, “husbands submit to your wives?”
Is Hebrews 13:17 insignificant?
I like how you placed the Matthew 23 scripture first before asking the questions. I really wish you had expounded a bit my brother on it. My answers would be just like what Hutch wrote. I think there has been so much abuse in the churches here in America, we have come to the wrong view of authority and being a servant. The scripture says:
But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. (Mark 10:42-45 KJV)
All this ‘I am pastor over you and your under my authority stuff’ today, is that really service? Or is authority used like Pharisees in the scripture you posted above? Why is the Lord Jesus Christ, the one who has all AUTHORITY, why is He seen in the scriptures serving? Hmmmm. How can we be edified as the Church if everyone is trying to be in a position of authority? These are some questions I had when being abused by the false teachers in the United States. I just think Lionel your trying to point us to the examples of Christ, and His example was serving others, which has to be true authority. We talk about the Scriptures being the authority of the believer, but what do the scriptures really do for us? They serve us, pointing us in the direction of the Lord Jesus Christ! Hmmmm. Great post Lionel. May His grace be with you!
Karsten Miller
Joe,
You know I love to take a jab, so I expect them LOL!!! Nothing personal taking (other people visit so I resond in a way that would get them shifting in their seats). LOL.
Hey D.A,
Read the verses, a wife has “authority” over her husbands body and so does the husband “over the wife”. That is one area, need more?
Hey Smithbaptist,
Follow the greek structure of this passage, or better yet, I will give you a lik and you can follow it there.
http://assembling.blogspot.com/2007/07/obey-and-submit-hebrews-1317.html
Read this and let me know what you think.
KM,
Whats good brother? Hey do me a favor. Since many say they believe in a Historic-Grammatical hermeneutic then lets read the verse and see if we are to take Jesus serious, here it is again.
5 They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, 6 and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues 7 and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi by others. 8 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10 Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. 11 The greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
Jesus give a few commands.
1. Don’t be called teacher
2. Don’t be called father
3. Dont’ be called instructors
Then he says what are to be called “Brothers”.
So how often do we sin? Almost every Sunday in our churches when we do the very thing Jesus said we were forbidden to do. We are brothers and their is NO, ABSOLUTELY NO hiearchy within the body of Christ. There are different functions and giftings but only ONE HEAD. The gentiles have hiearchy, Jesus levels that!
Brother Woods,
That is a good point about titles. When persons come to our local church, they often have to adjust to the saints being referred to as “Brother” and “Sister” rather than Reverend, Deacon, Elder, etc.
I find people often uncomfortable with the Church’s social and positional egalitarianism.
Brother Woods,
Regarding the link on Hebrews 13:17 - thank you. Certainly the exegesis is reasonable and I appreciate the brother’s heart to challenge abuses and be faithful to the teaching of our Lord regarding servant-leadership.
Let me agree with you that it is ungodly and unbiblical to “lord over” God’s people like the Gentiles exercise. However, I do not think that exercising godly authority is the same thing as lording over. Of course, some have abused God’s people under the banner of exercising “godly authority” and they are in sin.
However, the nuance of persuasion, exhortation, and following the example of those who lead you in the Lord, these attributes distinguish godly leadership from selfish, man-centered manipulation of the sheep. I appreciate how the blooger (you linked me to) expressed the fact that godly leadership often demands a more patient decision-making process, but it is quite worth it in order that we might “endeavor to keep the unity of the Body in the bond of peace.”
Thanks again for the link.
I am well, trying to work hard after coming home late from taking the kids to the MD state fair. Oh but Lionel someone could conted with you saying:
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; (Ephesians 4:11)
Don’t you see, Jesus gave hiearchy in that verse? But then the Holy Spirit kills that notion again in the next two verses:
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: (Ephesians 4:12-13 KJV)
Awww man, I cannot lord myself over people being a pastor, evangelist etc? Nope, this instead is a call for service to one another. It’s sort of like this, I give my sons chores to around the house. One son cleans the kitchen, the other cuts the grass. They are both still brothers and their father is the authority, while doing different functions to help fulfill what their father’s will is: to have a clean house.
It leaves no room for pride when you look at someone as your brother or sister in Christ Jesus. That makes me think, how many times have I sinned calling someone teacher, etc etc? Glory be to God, that there is only one HEAD, the Lord Jesus Christ!!!
By the way,
I am not advocating non-leadership churches. I believe Elders/Deacons and mature MEN are to lead the church. I believe that saints are to follow and are to be “persuaded” by them when decisions have to be made. I think again that this comes in true biblical relationships and there may be times where the elders take the loss. I again sit under a senior pastor and because of his wisdom and insight I follow his guidance, he was even talking with me about the discipline of my little boy. So I am not talking anarchy I am talking about authority that rests in a position and not the person. We are to be mutually submit and we are to make the load easy for those who minister to us and care for our souls. God has given them wisdom and giftings to lead us and we are to follow. So again, I believe in Elder led churches (plurality) but what may be different is I don’t believe in elder “ruled” churches. I believe like many others that consensus is possible and you can you sniff out a troubleamker miles away.
i suspect that control freaks like all this “i have authority over you business”. some people just love to have the preeminence among folk. they can’t even accept that you would call them by their first names without prefacing with the title of their function. if we call our natural brothers and sisters by their first name, then why shouldn’t it be so in the family of God?
KM,
I am so with you brother. I will give you a quick story. I have been running all weekend busy doing a bunch of different things. Well yesterday we hooked up with some friends and we began to talk about a leadership opportunity that I have. My wife somehow leaks out that I will be doing some teachign (something that causes utter fear in me and I ask that you pray for me). Well our friends asked “well what will you be called”? I answered “Lionel” or “Hot Chocolate” (that is my nickname that all of my friends call me LOL). Anyway she wasn’t satisfied with the answer. So she asked “what will your position be then”. I answered “Christian or Disciple whichever you prefer”. She thought I was being sarcastic, so she started to ask me other questions, like “won’t you be a teacher or won’t you be an elder, or won’t you be over people”. I said yes to the first two but no to the last one. I in turn talked to her about function and not position. This went on for about an hour literally. LOL! She was so frustrated with me because I said my name is Lionel on my Birth Certificate so that is what people will call me.
To make a long story short, people like titles and I despise them. People love to be over people and I despise that. People love to have long tassles and people scream their name and I despise it. I do enjoy teaching (small groups) writing, and discipling. I do enjoy seeing the church protected from wolves and equipped to serve God and enabled to functional fully in their gifts. So functionally I may do things but the function is what defines me not the position and that is what I was trying to convey.
Jesus told me “the greatest must be the lowest”.
Mav, Mav, Mav, you said:
“if we call our natural brothers and sisters by their first name, then why shouldn’t it be so in the family of God?
Why not even more?
The Servant Leader
So if “exercising authority” as a leader is wrong, what is the “right” way to lead? First, we must look at Jesus’ example. Paul’s letter to the Philippians gives us a vital clue to Jesus’ example of leadership.
“Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death– even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place” (Phillippians 2:6-9 NIV).
Jesus led by humbling himself. He had every right to command, to coerce, to dominate, and to take authority over the entire world. He was God. But his “success” came from humility. Revell’s Bible Dictionary offers this warning under the heading, “Authority”:
“Since even Jesus was careful never to claim a coercive authority over people who are free moral agents, then mere humans in positions of spiritual leadership must be even more careful not to claim such an authority… it is not now and never has been right for those in spiritual leadership to attempt to compel a response which, to be meaningful, must be a free choice” (Revell 115).
A leader must not coerce obedience. He must lead by the example of his excellence in conduct and devotion before God. He must not be concerned with his own power, wealth, position, ability to command respect, or the number of people on whatever lists he might have. His only concern is to serve his brothers and sisters in Christ. Jesus’ instructions to his disciples were very clear:
“You are not to be called ‘Rabbi’, for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called ‘teacher,’ for you have one Teacher, the Christ. The greatest among you will be your servant. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted” (Matthew 23:8-12 NIV).
Jesus directed his followers to avoid those titles of respect that might cause them to “think of themselves more highly than they ought” (see Romans 12:3 NIV) because they were to operate under a completely different paradigm than the world. Jesus said, “you have only one Master and you are all brothers” (Matthew 23:8). Where does the hierarchal model fit in Christian Leadership? Jesus seems to say it doesn’t.
Lawrence O. Richards writes in “The Teacher’s Commentary”:
“While the secular ruler is above those he leads, Jesus said, ‘Not so with you’ (v. 26). Instead of relational distance, there is relational closeness. The Christian leader must seek to be one with those he or she is called to serve.
“Instead of ‘exercising authority’ as a ruler who demands and enforces conformity, the Christian leader is to abandon coercion. Jesus said firmly and plainly, ‘Not so with you’. Force, manipulation, demand – all are ruled out in the way by which the servant leader exercises Christian authority. Outward force can produce conformity, but it can never product that inner commitment which moves people to choose to follow Jesus.
“How, then, does the servant lead? By serving! The secular ruler speaks the commands, but the spiritual leader demonstrates by his example the kingdom way of life into which he is called to lead others. No wonder Peter picked up this same theme… (1 Pet. 5:2-3 NIV) By serving, the Christian leader demonstrates the greatness of the love of God, and gently motivates others to follow him.” (Richards, 576, emphasis added)
Something to think on
Hot Chocolate-
ROFLOL!
Bring on the Remix’s
BTW: Another good post
lionel,
that verse does nothing for me. In context, it’s clearly in the narrow confines of sex, so I don’t see what that has to do with authority in general.
Let me ask you a question. I have a wife. We’re having a son in october. We both agree that our son should be baptized as an infant because we both believe in infant baptism. But let’s just say that I believed in infant baptism and my wife didn’t. I would want to have our son baptized and she wouldn’t. Well, we can’t both have our way. One of us would be the one who in the end would make the final decision.
Now I believe that if my wife and I disagree I have the responsibility to listen to her disagreements, I have the responsibility to pray with her and about our disagreement. But in the end, if I still believe in infant baptism and she doesn’t who, in your opinion, should make the final decision? Mutual authority doesn’t work in a dilemma scenario where the two parties are in complete disagreement. And the Bible seems to say wives are to be submissive to their husbands.
D.A,
Because that is unbiblical you should submit! Now on to a better scenario, say she wanted a blue car and you wanted a red one. Or say you wanted to go seminary but she didn’t want to relocate. Those are neutrual and a-biblical (when someone is unbiblical then we are to do are best to persuade them in the end they will make their own decisions but we are to say I don’t agree and this is in God’s court and you can’t force her at the end you are to lovingly disagree) then what do I believe? I might be stoned but the Husband takes the loss.
If we are to follow the Master’s way of doing things. He always takes the loss. He takes the loss for His bride in His death and setting aside a bit of His glory during His earthly ministry. He even asks “can this cup pass me by”. The answer is no. So when something is a-biblical I believe the husband takes the loss. If you wanted to relocate for a job and she didn’t and after showing her why and how it would be a blessing and she still refuses then my answer is that you die to your desires in name of honoring her as Christ did His bride. Does that help? Unbiblical things you may have to fight with all your breath.
You’ve got it all backwards. God the son (Jesus) did not take the loss for his bride in his death. Jesus isn’t in submission to the church. Jesus died for God the Father because the Bible says Jesus was under the Father’s authority.
Even though Jesus is God and equal to the Father in value, worth, and equal in deity, Jesus was in submission to the one who sent Him. Not the church!
The Bible gives us a clear example of how two people can be equal and one still be in submission to the other in the example of the trinity.
Can you show me where I said submit in reference to Christ and the church? I don’t think I ever said that in my entire life, but I could be wrong.
The point is, you said He takes the loss for his bride by dying for her, which isn’t true. He died because the Father told Him to.
In other words, He didn’t die for the bride at all. He died for God.
Here is a verse D.A, do you take this literally?
25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and
gave himself up for her,
Hey D.A,
I am not under the conviction that the Son submits to the Father eternally. I believe their is a temporal suborbination in His incarnation and as in His return, but in eternity past there was no submission of the Son to the Father. Many may disagree with me but I am not persuaded by a co-equal trinity that functions in subordination eternally. I believe that all three are co-equal but functionally during redemption there was a submission but only for the purpose of redemption. We can debate this point but many scholars are already doing this (Bruce Ware and Giles).
yes, lionel, yes! finally i hear a man acknowledge this. i’ve never agreed with that teaching that the husband should ALWAYS have the final say in matters of disagreement. it was always, “she’s supposed to submit to me- i get to make the final call”. i would say, what about husbands loving their wives as Christ loves the Church? why can’t the husband yield his way for the wife’s preference? would that mean his wife isn’t submissive because the husband gave up his rights for hers. i’ve never heard it taught this way- only the wife must always yield her rights to his. there’s no balance which could cause frustration and tension in a marriage.
it’d be nice if more men felt this way.
Would you cite one reference from Scripture that clearly commands a husband to submit to his wife (in similar fashion to the command in Ephesians 5:22 & 24 given to a wife to submit to her husband)?
Would you cite a reference from Scripture that clearly commends a husband for submitting to his wife (in similar fashion to the commendation given to a wife in 1 Peter 3:5-6).
In like manner, would you cite a reference from Scripture that clearly commands or commends or alludes to the idea of a husband obeying his wife or calling her “lord” (in similar fashion to that given to a wife in 1 Peter 3:5-6)
Jesus is subject to the authority of his parents (Luke 2:51).
Demons are subject to the disciples (Luke 10:17: clearly the meaning “act in love, be considerate” cannot fit here!)
Citizens are to be subject to government authorities (Rom. 13:1, 5; Tit. 3:1, 1 Pet. 2:13)
The universe is subject to Christ (1 Cor. 15:27; Eph. 1:22)
Unseen spiritual powers are subject to Christ (1 Pet. 3:22)
Christ is subject to God the Father (1 Cor. 15:2
Church members are to be subject to church leaders (1 Cor. 16:15-16 [cf. 1 Clement 42:4]; 1 Pet. 5:5)
Wives are to be subject to their husbands (Col. 3:18; Tit. 2:5; 1 Pet. 3:5; compare Eph. 5:22, 24)
The church is subject to Christ (Eph. 5:24)
Servants are to be subject to their masters (Tit. 2:9; 1 Pet. 2:1
Christians are subject to God (Heb. 12:9; Jas. 4:7)
Here is the point: None of these relationships are ever reversed. Husbands are never told to be subject (hypotassō) to wives, nor the government to citizens, nor masters to servants, nor the disciples to demons. Clearly parents are never told to be subject to their children! In fact, the term hypotassō is used outside the NT to describe the submission and obedience of soldiers in an army to those of superior rank (see, for example, Josephus, War 2.566, 578; 5.309; compare the adverb in 1 Clement 37:2). The Liddell-Scott-Jones Lexicon even defines hypotassō [passive] to mean “be obedient” (p. 1897).
Of course, the exact form submission takes, the way it works out in practice, will vary greatly as it applies to soldiers, to children, to servants, to the church, and to wives. Within a healthy Christian marriage, there will be large elements of mutual consultation and seeking of wisdom, and most decisions will come by consensus between husband and wife.
For a wife to be submissive to her husband will probably not often involve obeying actual commands or directives (though it will sometimes include this), for a husband may rather give requests and seek advice and discussion about the course of action to be followed (compare Phlm. 8-9). This is probably why Paul used the broader term “be subject to” when speaking to wives, rather than the specific word “obey” (hypakouō), which he used for children (6:1) and for servants (6:5).
Nevertheless, a wife’s attitude of submission to her husband’s authority will be reflected in numerous words and actions each day which reflect deference to his leadership and an acknowledgment of his final responsibility-after discussion has occurred, where possible-to make decisions affecting the whole family.
But in spite of all these different forms of submission, one thing remains constant in every use of the word: it is never “mutual” in its force; it is always one-directional in its reference to submission to an authority.
yes, BW, yes! finally i hear a woman acknowledge this!
Hey Burning Woman,
Here is one.
4 For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.
The word there is exousiazō which means “subject”.
There is my one, he at least submits there. What say ye, Burning Woman and Stephen?
I would also have to ask Stephen and Burning Woman, does the husband submit if his wife asks him not to go hang out with the fellas, she pulls out a scripture on him, is he now in subjection to her through the word? Answer carefully.
Oh yeah BW,
By the way, you said:
But in spite of all these different forms of submission, one thing remains constant in every use of the word: it is never “mutual” in its force; it is always one-directional in its reference to submission to an authority.
in reference to this:
Church members are to be subject to church leaders (1 Cor. 16:15-16 [cf. 1 Clement 42:4]; 1 Pet. 5:5)
So are you saying that leades are never to submit to other believers? Again answer carefully.
Lionel:
Good questions. Not sure what you’re getting at, but I have noticed that there is a heavy emphasis among many evangelicals on “leadership,” even though there are few (did not say, “no”) verses on this topic.
As a pastor/elder, I am intrigued by Heb. 13:17 (already mentioned in several comments) because of a) experience and b) what it emphasizes for the spiritual leaders.
It seems to me that as a pastor and husband and father, the concept that continues to bear down on my soul is that of responsibility, rather than authority, or even leadership. Heb. 13:17 seems clear on this for me as a pastor: I will give an account for not only my own soul, but for the souls of the sheep I’m called to shepherd.
This is a weighty concept and one that humbles me. To think that I am not only responsible for myself but (partially) for others is a heavy burden.
And so I’m not so concerned about authority as I am about responsibility.
In carrying such responsibility, there will be times where I will exhort and urge and charge the sheep to submit to the Word of God. In that sense, it is in their best interests to “submit” to me, that I may shepherd with joy, and so that it will go well with them (again, Heb. 13:17).
Problem: This may be seen by some as the tyranny of a power-hungry man (the possibility is certainly there), but perhaps they should consider that it is simply the pleadings of a man burdened with the prospect of one day standing before the Judge and giving an account for their lives, as well as my own.
Perhaps authority comes in when I try to control their responses, but that is not my role. My role is to feed them truth, to plead with them and to pray with them. That is my:
responsibility.
obviously, i struck a nerve….
well said Lance.
So Joe and Lance,
You would say that your authority rests in the word of God and not yourselves then? Curious on what you are saying Lance and what you are applauding Joe.
My responsibility is inescapable, via the Word of God.
Whether or not I have authority or whether or not I label myself a leader, one thing I can say for certain is that I am in a position of greater responsibility.
“Responsibity” is helpful Brother Lance. It does appear that responsibility is not laid upon all in the same manner.
Lance you said:
Whether or not I have authority or whether or not I label myself a leader, one thing I can say for certain is that I am in a position of greater responsibility.
What is that responsibility? Responsibility to do what?
Lionel, I was saying amen to the emphasis on responsibility. Still curious to read your answers to my last set of questions.
Responsibilities (not exhaustive, but convicting enough that I’m repenting as I type):
Acts 20:28ff: Pay careful attention to myself and to the flock; care for the church of God as an overseer (this is given to elders, and I am an elder in the church I pastor).
1 Peter 5:2-3 (to elders also): shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; not for shameful gain, but eagerly; not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock.
Hebrews 13:17: Keep watch over the souls of the flock, knowing that I will give an account for this.
Ephesians 4: equip the saints for the work of ministry;
Okay Joe,
My intent of the post was to ask do “leaders” have authority over other Christians or is this authority mutual based off of the word of God. I think I finally connected all the dots. It flows with my post “Submitted to All, Under the Authority of Christ”.
I agree Lance I guess the only question is what does that look like.
Hi Lionel, so your question should have been..
1. Where does the bible say that one Christian [leader] has authority over others?
Okay, that is a fair enough clarification to your initial question and maybe that is how some of the others were reading it when they answered.
Still not sure though why you picked the passage you did. It does not speak about “authority” but humble service. Are you suggesting that when someone humbly serves that they do not have authority? Sorry, but I am just not clear on how the passage you selected relates to the point about authority???
Regarding leaders and authority, Lance brings up Heb. 13:17 which I answers your question in the affirmative.
I think one of the things missed here is that yes, leaders (such as Elders) have authority to Shepherd the Body and of course it is not the same kind of authority held by Jesus. But that authority is limited and is also subject to the church. 1 Tim. 5:19 talks about the authority believers have over their elders to bring charges of misconduct or abuse of power of any kind.
I think, for me then the simple answer to all your question is that yes, Elders have authority to rule over the Body, but that authority is limited by other NT concepts such as mutual submission, the servant model of Christ, humility, etc… I think it is foolish to despise the Biblical authority of our Elders, but is is folly to think biblical authority is reflected in most of our churches.
I have dealt a lot with these leadership qualities on my blog and encourage everyone to read some of that.
In the end Lionel, thanks for letting me poke you a little on your post. I have a feeling we are probably agree on everything of significance and on most things of secondary importance we are in fair alignment.
Again, thanks for the good discussion and putting up with my questions
Joe,
Come on there is no authority in Heb 13 brother. But I do agree with your assessment. Next time I come for you power hungry Joel Olsteen want a be’s I will step up my verse selection. LOL!
Acts 20:28ff: Pay careful attention to myself and to the flock; care for the church of God as an overseer (this is given to elders, and I am an elder in the church I pastor).
Are you exhorted to care for yourself, meaning to give heed to yourself, because the way you conduct yourself is your primary way of being an example to the church?
How does one care for the church?
1 Peter 5:2-3 (to elders also): shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; not for shameful gain, but eagerly; not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock.
Does this mean shepherding by being an example?
How do you shepherd by being an example?
Hebrews 13:17: Keep watch over the souls of the flock, knowing that I will give an account for this.
What does it mean to keep watch over the souls of the flock?
Ephesians 4: equip the saints for the work of ministry;
How are elders to go about equipping the saints for the work of the ministry?
If you are equipping the saints to do the work of the ministry….
What is the work of the ministry?
BTW: My answers near the first of this post do not indicate that I do not believe in authority or that there is no authority. There is most definitely authority.
Lionel’s questions did not ask if there is authority.
For Mav and Lionel,
As far as the husband and wife issue it seems as though we are getting into an “either/or” context, when the issue is a “both/and” one. What I mean is this:
I definitely have final say in my house on everything. And you know what I say? I say whatever issue my wife is more skilled at handling and more knowledgeable concerning, I defer to her decision. She handles the money because I am horrible at it and it’s one less thing for me to have to worry about. Therefore, all decisions revolving around money are usually handled by her. She buys the kids clothes and I only say “yea” or “nay” when it comes to what my daughter wears. She chooses the places where we shop because she knows where the deals are. Etc. But…
When we use Ephesians 5 as our model (which we should), we have to be careful to maintain the analogy. We have to begin with verse 22 and follow the entire context. The submission discussed here is not one enacted by the husband over the wife in domineering fashion. But rather it is a willing submission enacted by the wife TO the husband. Almost in the sense of a gift. But when we apply the direct corrollation between Christ’ role toward the church and the husbands role toward the wife, how far are we willing to go? Because of our love toward Christ we willing submit to Him? Is it perfect submission? NO! Is it under compulsion at times? In a sense, yes. We are compelled by our love for Him, even when it comes to obeying in areas of struggle.
Here’s the text:
“Husbands love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her….So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself.”
Everything that Christ did, He did and does for the good of the Church. Christ is a dictator in a sense because the church is obligated to follow His rule over her. He purchased her with His own blood. She is His bride. She does not negotiate with Christ over His commands. But Christ extends infinite grace to her in her refusals to obey. Though husbands are not dictators in any way, they are to do everything for the good of their wife and family. Husbands are to give up their physical bodies (in work, in danger, and in conjugal love) to their wives. Period.
But when it comes to issues of decision making we have to be smart. I believe that the husband has the final say simply because the responsibility for failure rest with him. God seems to hold him more responsible than the wife. (Adam and Eve for example, though this could have to do with Adam being the direct recipient of the command not to eat) But that’s in regards to decisions concerning any actions taken which the bible directs. Husbands are responsible to obey God rather than wife! LOL!
In regards to abiblical decisions, it seems to me that the more knowledgeable one should make the decision. (As in my personal situation) We are looking for a house. Since my wife handles the books, she is the one that says what our price range is. She makes that decision. That’s not a matter of “Who’s the Boss?” but rather, who knows the information that best suits the decision to be made. But even here I believe the man is held responsible by God to recognize when his wife is right and to do away with any pride that would prevent him from listening to her advise.
So see it’s not a matter of either he’s in charge or she is. Neither is it a matter of either he’s submitting or she is. It’s a matter of both are submitting in areas where God has called on them to submit to one another.
I hope I added something to the discussion.
Well as I can see I’ll cut to the gist of the matter.
1 The authority we read is not the authority we have TODAY!
2 There is no council at Jerusalem or anywhere else for the authority to be held accountable to.
3 The Pastors/elder’s/leadership/authority are sheep too do you think not!
4 When Paul said to ordain elder’s in every city, he said it with one doctrine of the truth.
5 In every city now we have our own bibles and can feed ourselves, thank you!.
6 Yes we can learn from each other the key is “each other” 7 The authority that is around today is not Apostolic.
8 The oral word was being said which is the bible you have is it not?
9 Every one can read the bible and learn from it, without having to be under someone’s authority.
10 It’s not to place out tenets/dogma/creeds/” you go here I’m your Pastor” yoke on them.
11 With “all” this authority we have today with men claiming to say God told “them” to feed the sheep, why is there so much confusion today?
12 Since God is not the author of confusion then who is responsible for this mess we have?
13 Please don’t say they don’t have it right we do, who is the “we” that has it “right”.
14 This sad state of affairs has to change down the road from the mindset of the class system.
15 Why, because this is not working when people get a “chance” to see for themselves and expose these lies.
16 Maybe that’s why we love the “feed my sheep” Again Pastors what do you eat and who feeds you?
17 Yes, it’s a tough fight to stand up against the traditions of Men.
18 Remember the foxes book of martyrs people please read it.
19 Anytime anyone stands and say anything about authority right or wrong people listen.
20 I don’t believe in anarchy but please don’t tell me with all of these denominations claiming the other guy is wrong, we have order now!
21 Fellowship means something to different to everybody. You can’t tell me what it is and I can’t tell it for you. That’s the problem. Those in “authority” keep trying to tell me what they believe it should be.
22 Worship, see the woman at the well. What is the father looking for?
23. NO, I haven’t arrived, I don’t have all the answers and neither do you!
Question: What is the work of the Holy Spirit in the believer’s life?
The Holy Spirit makes anew or regenerates the believer.
The Holy Spirit sets the believer in Christ free from the law of sin and death.
The Holy Spirit strengthens the believer with power in the inner man.
The Holy Spirit leads us into a holy life - a life as sons of God, a godlike life
The Holy Spirit bears witness together with the spirit of the believer that the believer is a child of God.
The Holy Spirit brings forth fruit in the believer in Christ-like graces of character.
The Holy Spirit quickens the mortal body of the believer.
The Holy Spirit teaches all things.
The Holy Spirit guides the believer into all the truth
The Holy Spirit brings to remembrance the words of Christ.
The Holy Spirit reveals to us the deep things of God which are hidden from and foolishness to the natural man.
The Holy Spirit imparts power to discern, know and appreciate what he has taught.
The Holy Spirit enables the believer to communicate to others in power the truth he himself has been taught.
The Holy Spirit helps, guides and gives power to the believer in prayer
The Holy Spirit inspires worship on the part of the believer.
Since we have the finished word of God, the Holy Spirit guiding the believer in truth, it seems Man can and has conflicted with the mission of the Holy Spirit see above. Doctrine and Dogma will force its ugly hand when truth as inspired by God attempts to guide the believer through life and in truth. Let us not forget slavery, Doctrine was once used to justify the buying and selling of human beings, lest we forget the Spanish Inquisition used to Repress the Jews, Protestants to impose Censorship, some other facts Of a total of 49,092 trials from the period 1560–1700 of the 49,092, 14,319 were registered in the archive of the Suprema, were for heretical propositions. the Leadership of man would have condemned what we today call children of God. Think about it
hey lawrence,
you did add something good to the discussion. and i think it is well balanced. i obviously didn’t state my point as well as i would have liked- but you did.
when i said, “why should the husband have the final say in EVERY matter- what if his decision is dumb?” i was referring to matters in which the wife is certainly more knowledgeable, and her knowledge should be heeded as an act of humility on the husband’s part. to me, part of a husband loving his wife, is him having enough confidence in her to trust her judgement in areas where he is lacking.
how this was misconstrued by some to mean wives aren’t supposed to be submissive is perhaps due to my lack of clarity. and for the record because we are human, we do make dumb decisions, we all get full of pride and want our own way, and we all fail to yield our rights to one another in a marriage. just because i say a husband can be making a dumb decision doesn’t mean i would say that about my Lord. my husband is fallible, my God isn’t.
one other thing, this is my last statement about the submisson issue (at least on this blog). why i’m so passionate about it is because of all of the abuse and damage that has been done in the name of it.
let’s look at a few Scriptures. 1peter 4:12-14, 16, 19. have been used by those in “authority” in the Church to “counsel” a sister not to leave her abusive husband. afterall, 1 peter 2:20 -21 “supports” this. she’s told, this may just be her “cross to bear” and to continue to trust God and pray. me, with my “rebellious” self would tell her to run for her life! pray and PACK. i’d rather let God deal with me on judgment day in the next life (and He will) than to have a man breaking my bones and bruising my face in this life!
same thing with the slave issue. 1peter 2:18 the africans were told it was God’s will for them to submit to their master’s. that’s right, be a good nigger and submit. but for me, it would have been- harriet tubman, where you at, ’cause i’m on the next train out of here!
BTW I’m off today and t.m. lol!
Great questions! Notice how they all stem from examining an authority structure that presumes a hierarchy?
I was an associate pastor for 12 years in a body my wife and I participated in for nearly 40 years combined. I announced one day, because I had been asked to honestly state my views, that I no longer believed in a head pastor. oops! But it wasn’t an oops, just the truth.
Four months later, my family and I separated from the group over this issue. The shory story:
I had realized two things. 1. Jesus said call no man leader, father, teacher, or rabbi for you are all brothers. Your Matthew 23 verses above. 2. In estimating conservatively that in all my years at this church I had heard over 2000 sermons, I realized not ONE was ever on these words of Jesus! No one could teach it, and make it fit what we practiced.
Lionel, there are challenges in developing what needs to replace a head-pastor system, but there can be no question that when Jesus exhorted his disciples to not to do as the gentiles do it for the exercise of authority in the following:
Matthew 20:25-28 But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. 26 “It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, 27 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.” …He was saying do NOT interact as brothers in the Kingdom with hierarchical structures.
It begs the question, “What is the nature of the authority of God (not just a discussion of we must obey God’s authority and the consequences of not doing so)?” and the corolllary, “What actions on our part as pastors manifest the highest level of the authority of God in people’s lives?”
The answer to both in my estimation is Love. We rarely actually equate love and authority, but in which homes do you see the children both full of joy and laughter and easily obeying their parents? The ones where love has been of a higher order than following commands. Notice I did not remove following commands from the equation. This is the fear that keeps people from embracing the truth. That somehow the removal of hierarchy invites sin and anarchy.
Often, Christians will say of Jesus, “He told us if we love Him we will obey Him.” The interpretation is that high levels of obedience are the measure of one’s love. However John 14:15 in context, that sentence which Jesus used is a word of comfort. It fits into a series of thoughts on comfort after He leaves. Read it thinking that Jesus is reassuring His disciples that becasue of their love, they need have no fear, they will obey Him. See what you think.
All of this fits into a higher scheme of things regarding meaning of the scriptures. God told Adam and Eve to not eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil but only from the Tree of Life. Why are we not supposed to delineate right from wrong? Because then we must rely on human interpretation of what is right and wrong, Evil is loosed when people cannot fully fathom right and wrong as the “authorities” teach conflicting versions. Rather God desires to be our King, our Lord, our Father, our Brother, our Friend. We look not to man for what God provides. When we consume the Tree of Life, Jesus within us, the love we find becomes immeasurably AUTHORITATIVE. As the love in hearts begins to fuel the love in our words and actions, we shine to everyone around an authority of love.
It is masterfully compelling and effective for everyday living, since it is from the Master.
Sorry to be so long-winded. This is, I believe, what you are seeking in your questions. I am just a brother with no authority over you. However, I would love you authoritately by sharing this. As the hymn says, “Take it to the Lord in prayer.”
ooops typo
authoritately = authoritatively
Wonderful post - I am enjoying the conversation very much. A servant leader yeah I think is the way to go. We are indeed all one ….
tuche Lionel…
I appreciate the heart of where you are going brother and look forward to more discussions to come
This is not a challenge, just some honest questions regarding the role of an elder from someone who has served in a traditional congregation as an elder, who took it seriously and came away feeling that I and the other pastors/elders were not leading the local church to God’s stated goal.
Lance rightly pointed out some of the responsibilities of pastor/elders and my questions follow.
This is such an important issue in light of Hebrews 13:17 as mentioned by Lance.
Acts 20:28ff: Pay careful attention to myself and to the flock; care for the church of God as an overseer
Are elders exhorted to pay attention to themselves, meaning to give heed to yourself, because the way elders conduct themselves is the primary way of being an example to the church?
How does an elder care for the church?
1 Peter 5:2-3: shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; not for shameful gain, but eagerly; not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock.
Does this mean shepherding by being an example?
How do you shepherd by being an example?
Hebrews 13:17: Keep watch over the souls of the flock, knowing that I will give an account for this.
What does it mean to keep watch over the souls of the flock?
Ephesians 4: equip the saints for the work of ministry;
How are elders to go about equipping the saints for the work of the ministry?
If you are equipping the saints to do the work of the ministry….
What is the work of the ministry?
Having been on the “other side” for eight years (as pastor and elder), I think that the “authority” card is sometimes perceived more by the flock than enacted by the shepherds.
There are times when elders exercise our responsibility to encourage obedience and unity, but are met with an attitude of, “You’re not the boss of me!”
My reply: “Well . . . um . . . I never said I was. That may be your perception of what I’m trying to be, not what I’m actually called to be.”
Perhaps you can see what I’m getting at . . . namely that there are those of us in biblically recognized church offices, who could care less about being authoritative and dictatorial, but who are often perceived that way because of assumptions that are brought into the church (perhaps from bad experiences or maybe bad press).
So when we talk about whether or not one believer has authority over another, perhaps we should be sure that we’re not reading more into our experiences than is really there. SURE, there are lots of power-hungry, abusive church officers. But there are also plenty of us who never wish to portray ourselves as superiors, but as guides, appointed by God, ONLY by His grace, and commissioned by Him to a longer list of responsibilities than the sheep (this is not a statement of elitism—it feels more like a burden).
As far as “how” we are to shepherd, much of this answer comes from asking for wisdom. There are many general admonitions from scripture (esp. those of being examples), but in the day to day, I find the calling to be very humbling, crying out, “Lord, be merciful to me and guide me. I don’t know what to do, but my eyes are on you.”
I hope to do a post soon at the scrawny pulpit showing a model of eldering that conforms more to Acts 20, 1 Peter 5 and Hebrews 13, than the presumed CEO model. I think it can help shepherds and sheep move away from the authority mindset to the responsibility mindset.
Finally, as in marriage, it would seem wise that all of us heed our own verbs, rather than the verbs of others. I am not told to make my wife submit. I am told to love her sacrificially. That’s my verb.
As a pastor, I am not told to make people obey and submit. I am given several other commands (above comment) and indirectly warned that I will give an account for the way I have carried out my verbs.
I hope this at least answers some questions from the perspective of a pastor who seeks not to govern, but to shepherd (yet who has been beat up several times by the “You’re not the boss of me” crowd).
Hey Lance,
I am not in the boss of me business ( I guess I now have an eldership function, though not labeled an Elder per se). I believe elders are to guide and lead by both word and deed.
Lance this is nice to hear from some one who had or still has this role. My question is there anybody who ever desire it like.
1 Tim, 3:1 instead of always saying God called them into this. I know Jesus called the 12. But after that its never I desire the office. Why is this?
Lance-
Obviously you do not have to answer the questions that I have posed, you do not answer to me as nobody answers to me or to you for that matter (unless you have children still at home), but as an elder you must have considered these questions:
Ephesians 4: equip the saints for the work of ministry;
How are elders to go about equipping the saints for the work of the ministry?
If you are equipping the saints to do the work of the ministry….
What is the work of the ministry?
Otherwise you would not know if you are functioning as God’s Word intends.
Are you not answering because you feel the questions are silly or unimportant?
Do you feel that I am out of line to ask you a question?
-or- do you not know the answer?
How you shepherd a flock is so important and as you have well stated you will give an account.
Asking for wisdom is important, but the authoritative Word of God in comprehensive and contains all the instruction that we need regarding what it means to be an elder.
No guess work is needed.
What is your role and responsibilities (what do you do), what is your stated goal in God’s Word (what is the desired end product) and how do you accomplish God’s stated goal in your office of elder (How do you do it)?
Every elder must ask these questions, so your answers will be very instructive.
Blessings in Christ.
Can someone PLEASE, using scripture show me anyone, anywhere who ever claimed “GOD called them” to pastor. DTG is hitting it on the head; the servicing of the children of God is not a “calling” unless it can be substantiated by scripture that “calling” is the method in which God places one in leadership we must submitt to scripture, it’s a desire as stated in 1Ti 3:1.
(o-re’-gō : to stretch one’s self out in order to touch or to grasp something, to reach after or desire something)
This Ephesians,4:12 the work of the ministry. I don’t get it either what’s so hard about this point. It’s not a “mystery” to any of the apostles what they were to do? It was simple go and make “disciples” of men. Then they will make disciple of men to the glory of God. The “relevance” of the elder’s ship was different. Why because of the situation that those people were going through with the Jews as well as the Romans. Maybe in China or Iran someone who are elders over there can read Ephesians 4 with more relevance. Than “here” because of the hostile attack against the gospel of Christ. Some will say to me what about them over there no problem with me on that. Yes because certain places like those the people have “less” bibles and more people. The elder job still doesn’t change go and make disciples of men and bring them into “unity” of one truth of the gospel. Like I said early not this stuff called into today no unity. How would the world know us by the “love” for another, not our tenets/creeds/dogma/where you go/etc,etc. Btw please read Hebrews,5:12 to14, then Hebrews,6:1 to 3 for the glory of God in the truth of his word.
Hutch, regarding your question about Elders, I invite you to read through a 12 part series on Eldership that I have been working on for the last couple months. I think I address all the questions you are asking, but am open to deeper discussion if you are interested.
Hutch:
I’ll be glad to talk to you personally about the “hows” of shepherding, but in just 8 years of experience, I don’t think there’s time or room to answer those questions completely.
I’m sorry it appears that I’m avoiding the question, but the question is not one that can be answered without considering specific situations and how the general precepts in the NT tell us to handle them.
(you can go to solidfood366.wordpress.com and email me, via the contact form)
“Asking for wisdom is important, but the authoritative Word of God in comprehensive and contains all the instruction that we need regarding what it means to be an elder.”
If you are indeed correct, there is no need to ask how this is done or what this looks like, for the answers are right there in Scripture, eh?
Lance-
You said: “If you are indeed correct, there is no need to ask how this is done or what this looks like, for the answers are right there in Scripture, eh?”
I am asking how you as an elder see and approach these questions and how you minister accordingly:
Ephesians 4: equip the saints for the work of ministry;
How are elders to go about equipping the saints for the work of the ministry?
If you are equipping the saints to do the work of the ministry….
What is the work of the ministry?
if you do not have a desire to share what you have learned on this forum, or if you do not know, I understand.
J.R.-
I will check it out.
Thank you.
Lance-
You said: “I’m sorry it appears that I’m avoiding the question, but the question is not one that can be answered without considering specific situations and how the general precepts in the NT tell us to handle them.”
You believe that the answers to these questions change with the situation?
Ephesians 4: equip the saints for the work of ministry;
How are elders to go about equipping the saints for the work of the ministry?
If you are equipping the saints to do the work of the ministry….
What is the work of the ministry?
Lance-
Does Creekside Bible Fellowship have a website?
“Does Creekside Bible Fellowship have a website?”
Not that I know of.
You know how to get in touch with me if you truly want to dialogue about these issues.
Lance-
My mistake, I googled your name and Rowlett, Tx and came up with Creekside Bible Fellowship, instead of Rowlett Bible Fellowship.
http://www.rowlettbible.org
I was searching for information that might indicate why you would not share on this forum your viewpoint as an elder of what it means to equip the saints for the work of the ministry and your opinion of what the work of the ministry is, it was nice to put a voice with a face.
Is there a reason that you fel free to post a response here on other issues but wish to only speak privately about the issues raised above?