I think I struggle with polished ministry. There seems to be this unnatural wax museum aura that permeates the building. The lights camera action of it all loses me 5 to 10 minutes into it. I don’t know when this happened actually. But it happened and the tension gets thicker every week. I enjoy seeing my brothers and sisters in Christ and I enjoy to see many of them growing. However I don’t know if it is the most conducive environment for them to grow in. Again I was privellaged to have one of the most unorthodox pastors that still was theologically and doctrinally sound more in life than in practice. I hope that if he reads this that he won’t change. He took a small group of college students and turned a couple of campuses upside down for the Gospel and the fruit of that ministry gets you some solid Holy Hip Guys and other cats holding it down all of the United States. Much of the freedom I had to learn and grow was under his lack of micromanaging.
But back to the post. I struggle to affirm what we do as biblical. We boast about “expository sermons” (everytime we open our bible we better be doing it expositorily or we have twisted the word of God for our own benefit and that is sin) as if the best way to teach God’s word is with a 1 hour sermon that never allows others to become involved. We believe hiring someone with a beautiful voice and some nice muscians is worship and we think meeting in a building is following the commands found in Hebrews 10, Epheisans 4 and Colossians 3. As I have stated those things funcitioning well could still be very far than what the writers of the New Testament had in mind, regardless of how “well” they are performed. Why? That leads to my next point…….
Most of that is well polished and well rehearsed and if the Spirit wanted to come in, He wouldn’t have a place to sit (not as it relates to His divine attributes). I am saying many times I hear prayers to the Spirit to enter the service and bless the people, in the music and word, then in turn we close the door or give Him a back seat in the pew while we follow our order’s of Worship. As I look in 1 Corinthians 12-14. Most of this could only occur under the liberty to be “moved” by the Spirit. And we all know He is gentleman so anything done out of order isn’t of Him (1 Corinthians 14).
It is so calculated. How many songs to sing, the sermon from the opening paragraph to the last word on the paper (sometimes there is deviation; however, the points will be made and if the Spirit wanted to take the message to something that was personally tailored to that specific gathering He couldn’t). The Lord’s snack is well rehearsed and though we give our spill about taking it unworthily I have yet to see much or any reconciliation. Most gatherings (my local church is a bit differnet which is refreshing) don’t allow for a time of testimony or reflection. The Supper is to be Corporate but it is so individually practiced that it can’t be the Lord’s Supper. Lets call it a Happy Meal.
So every-time I drive to church or see people prepared, I wonder what Show on Earth are they going to. I wonder if they had real needs will they be met? If they had real struggles will they be spurred on (apart from some precalculated sermon that is tailored to fit all in every season of their lives, we should immediately raise flags for this alone)? Nope. They will go and say “I am fine” or “I am blessed” put on their smiles with their family all the while they will be entertained. It is funny how we mock the Seeker Sensitive Church. I guess our circles should be called the Traditional Sensitive Church. Both are being sensitive. One to those who want their selfish emotions fed and others who want their selfish traditions fed. Neither are meeting for the purpose to spur each other own, but the preacher still wants them not to forsake, they will handle the spurring.
So I guess I am just venting and sorry for that. I think that is why I am going to this conference.I guess that is why I sometimes envy (not jealousy) my brother Tyris who have men meeting and hammering out the doctrine, who have interactive meetings, and whom I see everyone who dawns their door (if they can’t get pass the house model) grow leaps and bounds. Not in theological knowledge alone but their love for all the saints. I guess that is why I can see them help each other out when they have needs and they don’t have to go through the benevolence committee to get those needs met. That is why upward to 90% of the funds can be used for the kingdom and not for the Show. Again I am struggling and forgive the tone if sounds vicious.
Hi brother. I am not wanting to be disagreeable, but I wanted to ask a question. You wrote, ” How many songs to sing, the sermon from the opening paragraph to the last word on the paper (sometimes there is deviation; however, the points will be made and if the Spirit wanted to take the message to something that was personally tailored to that specific gathering He couldn’t).”
- Are you saying that the Holy Spirit is unable to work ahead of time to put together the songs and message needed for that day? Can the Spirit only work in a spontaneous unplanned way?
- Additionally, are you suggesting that anyone who goes to a planned service is not really experiencing God?
- Since the Bible does not give specific examples of the typical American Sunday service, then this model of gathering is sinful (after all, if it hinders the Spirit and is unbiblical as you say, then it must be a sin, right?)
Again, I know asking questions on a blog can dangerous so please know that I am not trying to shoot down what you are writing about, I am just trying to get a better understanding of what you are saying and the implications of it for the church.
I appreciate your patience and understanding.
Oh, and please let me also add that I ask these questions in part because I feel the same way about some of the stuff I have seen too, and what I am really hoping to get is your insight on how you apply your thinking to questions I know people are asking. Thanks again.
How are you Brother Joe?
Oh I am not easily offended. I have learned to grow thick skin over this thing called life. Thanks for the gracious questions. Now I will answer the questions as best as possible.
1. Not at all. I believe that He can work both ways. However I do believe that He is hindered because EVERYTHING we do in the modern church setting is pre-planned. My problem is not so much the preplanning more than the unflexibility of this preplaning. So if the Spirit wanted to interrupt He could not. We are so constrained and polished that we wouldn’t allow spotenaity.
2. No. I think they can, but I think they don’t. Sunday becomes as polished as any other day. Let me ask you. If you were stuggling in your marriage before the Sermon. Would you interupt the planned sermon so the church could pray for you guys? Or would “service” go on as usual? What if someone else came with a problem. Would you stop the normal service to attend to these needs or must the singing, sermon and announcements go on as plan. It is a very serious question. Finally in our modern church setting would anyone even be confident to pursue. Finally how many times have you seen genunince community and reconcilitaiton and corportate prayer for one another during the Lord’s table in our modern settings?
3. I am wrestling through the sin issue as we speak. As for now I would say best not necessarily sinful. For example it is best that a husband and wife sleep in the same bedroom and same bed during marriage. Is it sinful not to? No! Get what I am saying?
I like the conversation going on. Good questions and good responses. I really enjoyed the post. These are issues that should be raised and questions that should be asked.
I appreciate the clarification of the false dichotomy regarding the Spirit and guidance/planning/preparation.
The Spirit’s guidance AND powerful operation are necessary in the preparation for Sunday and in Sunday’s actuality.
I’ve seen neglect in both aspects, which is heinous. We don’t quench the Spirit as He guides the preparation (particularly preaching), but if the one proclaiming the truth of God’s Word is not guided by the Spirit, he might as well not prepare OR show up to preach.
Can a brother get an “Amen”?
I know I’m preaching to the choir, but it felt good to say it anyway.
Incidentally, I have to agree that when something comes across as “slick” or as a “production” my Spidey senses tingle, but I happen to think that uneasiness is discernment from the Spirit.
I hope that doesn’t sound too presumptuous.
I agree.
Our worship should be an act of love and not a preformance. The market driven church must rely on market forces ….
Brother Gunny,
I hear you Gunny, but I am asking what if He wants to interrupt? When I look in Acts 20, 1 Corinthians 11 and 1 Corinthians 14 I see a possibility for interaction and dependcy on the Spirit to communicate. In most of our Sunday Gatherings there is no room for interaction, dialogue, or the Spirit to guide the service. In songs of praise we have a leader and we depend on His/Her Spirit and what if God just wants us to sing praise and pray for the gathering would that be allowed in our circles (more Reformed). I believe the answer would be no, because the “word” must be proclaimed.
I don’t even think Paul prepared an all nighter in Acts 20 Gunny. He probably did prepare to talk to them about something, but it seems that the Spirit took them another way. Finally with Satelitte Churches there is “no way” the Spirit has tailored made a 2000 people fit all sermon. But that could be a different arguement. With that model I might as well sit my family down in the living room and listen to you on IPOD brother. I think it is a detriment.
Lionel,
Just a quick comment on this as you are where I am and have been for the last five years. I just now have been able to move on out into a house church setting. I always way everything heavily on the word and the Spirit before I jump into something. I still will fellowship with my old home because as I told the elders that you can never leave the church. One more thing to look at in 1 Corithians 14. Look at vs.37 then look at vs. 38. This seems to me to reflect all of what had been written. So if our assembly time is to look like vs. 26-27 wouldn’t that be a “commandment” from the Lord along with the rest of the scripture? I don’t mean to be preaching it is just you are bringing out some very insightful things that myself and another brother are going through. I must say I have found Kansas City and Alan’s sites as very helpful also. Remember one thing…pray for one another without ceasing. So during this time I would urge everyone to do just that. So that we can attain to the unity of one faith. Amen…..again, thank you all, Steven
P.S. I miss translated the word “way” it should have read “weigh” everything out. I am a stickler for that….Steven
I know race is not central to this discussion, but this is one of the reasons many blacks are suspicious of so-called Reformed worship and the regulative principle. They fear a lack of “openness” to the leading of the Spirit.
Many Christians have waaaaaaaaaay over-reacted to charismatic excesses and have become chilly.
Hey SmitBaptist,
Jesus give the Regulative Priciple in John 3 and I believe it is “Spirit and Truth” if my European Forefathers believe that this is what they defined in the 17th Century then they are wrong. But we can have a serious discussion about that later. You are right most of what we do are a response to what is wrong than to that which is biblical. I guess that is why I wrote the post yesterday.
SOwen,
It depends. What I mean is this. Is Paul saying what I have written as the orderly worship or the elemets of the worshp? I think this is the big question and I am not ready to embrace the latter.
Let me be clearer. Paul could mean two possible things
1. Paul could be focusing on the decently and in order which pretty much deals with verses 1-40 and that could be the thesis of these paragraphs
2. He could be talking about both the elements of this ordely worship.
I think more number 1 than 2. The reasons could be iffy but I will say that if that if number 2 is correct then we must also “seek” prophecy and not forbid tongues. And that would mean that the majority of our churches are in sin (verse 39). I don’t want to go that far but if I accept your proposal that is what I would have to say. So since I don’t want to say that I believe that the primary subject in “orderly worship”. What do you think?
Good answer and I appreciate your thoughtful response brother Lionel. You said, “My problem is not so much the preplanning more than the unflexibility of this preplaning.” I think that hits it right on the head for me. I agree.
I also appreciate your approach to the Communion.
Regarding question three, I think that is where I too would struggle the most. I don’t know that your analogy is quite right though. If the Church is truly rejecting the Holy Spirit, then that is quite a bit more serious than a choice between good vs. best. But I don’t have a great answer either, just an ongoing exploration.
Again, thanks for the good discussion everyone.
Lionel,
I am still struggling with the fact that if he says if each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation,has an interpretation…and with how this plays into the modern church. Every commentary I searched never says anything about this aspect of 1 Cor. 14. Most all are about the tongues issue. Which I am not looking into right now. It is just how Paul says “each of you” not just the pastor, worship leader etc. So then when you come down to the part where he says “I write to you the commandments of the Lord.” How we can ignore this. Anyway I am not wanting to put anyone on the spot for this on your blog. I may have to start my own blog site for these. I sometimes get carried away and I don’t want to over step any boundries. By the way I am one of the people who is helping put on the conference you referenced. Look forward to seeing you there. Steven
Hey Steven,
Never shrink away from proclaiming it all! LOL!!! No boundaries here brother. Bring the noise my man.
Lionel & Steven-
From Carl Ketcherside:
In the primitive church the saints met to worship and scattered to preach. The bench of the cobbler, the plowhandles of the farmer, the desk of the tax collector; these were the only pulpits known. The Christians took the good news to the world; they did not build houses and tell the world to come. The kingdom was spread like leaven works in the dough. Just as the yeast affects one particle of the mixture and it then permeates every other particle with which it comes in contact, so Christianity filled the hearts of men, and from them spread to other hearts as they came in contact in the pursuit of daily tasks. The slave girl whispered the story of freedom into the ear of her haughty mistress as she combed her tresses and applied the unguent; the bazaar keeper talked to the prospective purchasers as they examined his wares; the banker heard about the lowly Nazarene at the public bath; the clerk in his counting house; the farmer at the local inn. The Ethiopian treasurer learned of Christ as he rode along in his chariot; the jailer in his dungeon keep; Lydia out on the river bank. Everywhere men were persuaded by those who said, “We have found him of whom the prophets have spoken.”
Those who were Christians did not speak of “entering the ministry.” They were already in it. Everyone entered the ministry at baptism. To be in Christ was to be in the ministry. No one went away to study for “the Ministry.” Each one began where he was and announced the Messiah who had come. People did not send for a preacher. They just began preaching. All who had been inducted into the kingdom could tell what they did and why they did it. Every Christian was a minister, everyone was a priest. The congregation was a priesthood–a royal priesthood composed of all believers.
Each week these priests gathered about a table. They ate of the bread and drank of the cup in memory of the Lord’s death. As they were assembled they prayed. Their prayers were spontaneous. They did not pray because they were “on the program” or because they were “assigned to do it.” They talked to God as a son speaks with his father. They bore their mutual burdens to the throne to find grace to help in time of need. They rejoiced in thanksgiving in the presence of God. They spoke to each other to build up, stir up and cheer up. Their talks were not formal or stilted sermons. A number of brethren participated, speaking one by one, that all might be edified and all might be comforted.
The pattern of religious worship in the early church was designed by God to meet the needs of the church in all ages. It requires no alteration, needs no amendment, and demands no improvement. The church of today can only be healthy if it follows this prototype. To reproduce it we must first alter our views concerning the word “member.” We employ it today to designate one who has united with a specific congregation, or who has his name on the roster of the local church. We talk about “a member of the church” in the same sense that we refer to a member of the country club, a lodge or a farm bureau. The word is never so employed in the New Testament. There it always refers to one who sustains a vital, living connection with the spiritual body of our Lord, and who is thus in direct relation to Him as the head. And just as one does not confer about the problem of finding something for his physical hands, ears or feet, to do, so we should not have to discuss putting the members of Christ to work. When a child is born, we never once question how many of his physical members will be, or should be, employed in the growth of his body. We train him in the use of his members as he grows toward maturity, but if someone were to advance the idea that a majority of the members should be bound and not permitted to function lest they embarrass the rest of the members, such a person would be laughed out of court. It is only in the spiritual body that we devise schemes whereby the majority of the members can shift their responsibility to one hired to do the work. Such a system not only degrades God’s spiritual institution, making of it a helpless, dependent and servile thing, but worst of all, it appropriates the privileges and abrogates the rights of those who are truly priests of God.
The call to a brighter and better day goes forth to all who are of a broken and contrite spirit. The way to liberty in Christ Jesus is the way of the cross. Men who plead for a complete restoration of the New Testament church must endure persecution and misrepresentation. An organization in its corruption never did, and never will, admit it. Its only feeling will be anger, not repentance. There is no hope of reforming an apostate church as a body. The only hope is that men will arise who see the need to call forth those whose trust is stayed in God and once more start a move toward Jerusalem’s broken down walls.
Our plea is to everyone who has a good and honest heart. Only on such fertile soil will the seed of the kingdom produce a bountiful yield. Regardless of religious affiliation in the past, of parental instruction, ecclesiastical tradition, or priestly doctrine, let us throw off the yoke which neither we nor our fathers were able to bear. Let us recapture the fountain of life so that its waters can once more flow free and freely, and restore to this earth the congregation as it was given by Him who is our great high priest at the right hand of God. Remember that “you also as living stones are built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.” May God bless the royal priesthood of all believers is our very humble and sincere prayer.
Wow! Any takers. I will have to post this as a blog brother. Can you send me the exact link? So I ensure no copyright issues?
Lionel-
Good stuff!
Your journey and my journey seem to dovetail in a lot of areas.
Here is a link that I recently discovered:
http://www.unity-in-diversity.org/
If you are interested, I highly recommend that you read the online book on the Royal Priesthood, it is tremendous.
Mike Hutchison
This is posted on the site dedicated to his work and writings.
Permission
——————————————————————————–
DEDICATION OF WRITTEN WORKS
OF W. CARL KETCHERSIDE TO PUBLIC DOMAIN
In order to foster the collection and publication of the written and Recorded works of W. Carl Ketcherside, his children and legatees enter into this dedication of those works to the public domain.
Whereas, during his lifetime, W. Carl Ketcherside wrote many articles, books, and other works and had many talks and discussions recorded on film, audio, or video tape
Whereas, W. Carl Ketcherside repeatedly expressed his desire that all of his works, including any in which he possessed copyright protection, be dedicated to the public domain.
Whereas, W. Carl Ketcherside died in 1989, survived by his two children, Gerald B. Ketcherside and Sharon Sue Ketcherside Burton, who are the sole legatees of his estate and who now possess whatever rights to his works that he possessed.
Whereas, several persons have contacted Gerald B. Ketcherside and Sharon Sue Ketcherside Burton and have expressed an interest in collecting and publishing certain of their father’s works.
Whereas, Gerald B. Ketcherside and Sharon Sue Ketcherside Burton desire to encourage further publications of their father’s works, to support their father’s wish to make all of his works part of the public domain, and to remove any legal impediments to the free publication of his works.
Whereas, Gerald B. Ketcherside and Sharon Sue Ketcherside Burton understand that their rights in their father’s works may have commercial value, but they nonetheless desire to forfeit and abandon those rights by transferring the works to the public domain.
Now therefore, Gerald B. Ketcherside and Sharon Sue Ketcherside Burton hereby dedicate, grant, and transfer to the public domain all of the written and recorded works of their deceased father, W. Carl Ketcherside, for which he possessed rights. This dedication to the public domain is intended to be broad, covering all works of their father, regardless of when those works were created, whether those works were published, or whether those works were copyrighted by their father.
This dedication is dated as of this 25th day of January, 1993.
___________________________ ___________________________
Gerald B. Ketcherside Sharon Sue Ketcherside Burton
[Image of Notarized document]
Hutch,
What you sent is words out of my mouth or better yet the scriptures. You hit the nail on the head for where I am. That’s why I find it hard for us to say we must change for the culture. When God laid it all out in the word and who are we to change that. We are not to conform to the world and yet the way church is done today is for the world and not for Christ. I wholeheartily say Amen to your post from Gerald.
Sincerely, Steven
Hutch ,
I meant the post from Carl…
Steven-
These are the things I have been struggling with for quite some time.
I am confident that you and I and Lionel are not alone-far from it.
I recently came to the end of my 5 year journey researching church leadership and biblical ecclesiology-now the real struggle begins-application and finding other like minded believers to gather together with-I have no intention of going back to “Institutional Churchianity”.
There is a lot of false doctrine to guard against for sure, but folks searching for a biblical ecclesiology are being lumped into the so-called “Emergent” category to be discredited as the paid church staff begins to feel their unbiblical positions being threatened.
I also feel that there are a lot of folks who are sick and tired of the segregated church meetings so common taking place on Sunday mornings here in America where you have the white church with the token black couple and the black church with the token white couple.
Enough is enough already.
Under the fall in Adam we where brothers as we all descended from Noah’s sons…and in Christ, we are a new creation and family members of an even deeper intimacy.
There is only one race, the human race comprised of different ethnic groups.
Darwin was one of the most notorious of racists who has ever lived.
As I grow older and hopefully mature more and more, I judge people who profess faith in Christ less and less on their outward religious rituals and supposed bible knowledge and more and more based on if their lives are marked by a growing love for others especially those who are their brothers and sisters in Christ.
The good news is that God did it all for us again, He tells us to love Him with all our heart, mind and strength and to love others as we love ourselves… something that we cannot in and of ourselves do…but “…the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.” Romans 5:5
Hey Hutch,
When I am in Houston lets do dinner friend.
Hutch.
Amen!!! I have just recently left the institutional church after much struggle. And as the Lord would do it He introduced my family and I to a wonderful group of believers who happen to meet in a house. They are trying to follow the New Testament pattern without bringing some old mindsets back in. Don’t get me wrong as if I knew of someone who wasn’t ready for the house I would not hesitate introducing them to my old fellowship. Because they have the sound teaching concerning Christ and Him crucified. I just know myself, I can’t go back either. It is like once your eyes have been opened to the full counsel of God you want to follow the word. I have heard the Emergent word spoken in my old fellowship also when I brought up Pagan Christianity and Ecclesia books. There are others that are struggling in my old fellowship and I feel they will be leaving also as God leads. By the way I happen to be “don’t” anyone get mad LOL!!! A white brother in Christ who also happens to fellowship and labor with my brother in Christ who is black. I love him like my own flesh and blood because that is who he is. When we have the blood of Christ in our bodies, guess what there is no more Jew, Greeek or black or white..you name it. We are Christians!!!
Lionel, I so appreciate this post as you can tell we are all in this together and that is part of walking out our own salvation. Thank you so much and God Bless all who are responsible for this blog site. It is a great blessing for me.
Steven
Lionel-
Just shoot me an e-mail when you are headed this way, and we will make that happen.
Mike
Steven-
You would think by now that I would have learned not to assume! Grin.
I was just reading some of Darwin’s more outrageous statement and conclusions.
Years ago I served in a youth group where the group was very integrated and diverse. The youth pastor would start a part of his meetings with the question: How many here believe in the theory of evolution?
He would then read some of Darwin’s most extreme statements and beliefs about our black brothers and sisters and other non-whites. (BTW my wife is white she literally glows in the dark-on the other hand, I am more like light brown. Grin.)
You could see the confusion and anger come across both the adults and the kids faces as they emotionally responded to what was being quoted.
He would end by saying: If you believe in the theory of evolution, it is very important that you know what the framers of that ungodly and racist theory namely Charles Darwin believes about you.
Priceless.
Hutch,
AMEN!!!! Brother………take care