Here is the question. Would you see, Paul, Peter as a matter of fact any of the Apostles at some type of rally fighting for morality? Better yet would you find Jesus there?
We as believers are too easily identified for what we are against rather than being identified on how we serve, love, and provide Grace in a fallen world. It is funny here is what the religious leaders thought about Jesus:
34 The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ 35 Yet wisdom is justified by all her children.”
Why? How? What grounds? You see Jesus “smelled like sinners” someone brilliantly penned. I am going to be quite frank here and I am speaking of myself (most of the stuff I write here is my own struggles as a Christian) also. The world needs to see us in a different light. Strong-arming people with laws, slinging moral stones out of our holy slingshots, and marching on gay parades, the Supreme Court, and abortion clinics, while telling the world how much God hates sin doesn’t work and it hasn’t worked.
Jesus converted a woman in probably a 30 minute or less conversation. Not once did he belittle her for her lifestyle, though He called her on it. He didn’t quote 1 Corinthians 6 to her. He simply told her about the living water, true worship and revealed Himself to her. Next we see Jesus talking to a group of religious zealots who are about to stone a woman. What was His response? Next we see Him eating at table with the vilest of men. They ran in bunches because they were outcast in Jerusalem and other parts of the region. Somehow I believe Zaccheeus was at the table with Matthew and later what did he tell Jesus? What about a woman who washes Jesus feet with her tears? You see this woman had a reputation and GOD!!! let her touch Him and minister to Him. Do we understand the significance of this? Jesus let a woman known for being loose and wild touch Him!!!!!!!!!! Lets see lepers, blind, deaf, gentile dogs and women and men who were given up on by the world they lived in came and God loved them, while the religous elite and others rejected them. Jesus spent time eating, listening, loving, TOUCHING, caring for and serving the very people the religious folks casted to the side and he never went to a sanctity of marriage rally, an abortion clinic rally, a Supreme Court Rally, a Republican rally or a Gay parade! He simply spent His time talking, healing and touching them and He turns a world upside down!
Why are we so arrogant as if we have had some sense of innate righteousness? Why are we so condescending on others who happened to be forehead dip in some of the most vile and wicked lifestyles? Why do we believe we should abstain from these folks rather than touch them as Jesus did, in hopes that the same Spirit that blew undetected our way and caused regeneration won’t blow their way? Why do we spend so much time showing the world what we don’t do versus what we do do? Why is it easier to abstain than love? Why would we rather shake our head at the very flamboyant homosexual rather than try to get in His life? Why would rather shake our head at the young woman with 3 baby daddies versus invite her over for dinner? Why would we rather sit at home and talk about how wicked the world is around us versus penetrate it with the light of the Gospel by both word and deed? Why is it so easy to sit back and blog about how dumb the word of faith people are versus getting involved in their lives, eating meals with them, and discipling them by deed? Why is it is so much easier to run away from the very world Jesus has called us to serve the very world that His blood was spilled to redeem?
You see there has to come a point in our lives where we really love people rather than write them off. I am so thankful that Jesus, though, I was His enemy, vile and wicked as I was, loved me and poured out His blood for me. In return I turn my nose up to very person I was before the mighty work of Regeneration called me from the dead and placed me into the body of Christ and sealed me with His power, promising me eternal life and by nothing of my own? How dare I boast as if what I possess was earned by hard work and dedication, while it was the very grace of a ever patient, ever loving, unimaginable patient God? How dare I stand off and beat my chest like the self-righteous Pharisee? NO!! We should fall on our face and repent of our hypocrisy. God saw nothing in us lovely, redeemable, acceptable, pleasurable. Nothing is us for Him to choose us, to send His son to be the lamb on the alter. We were 100% dead and on a highway to hell smiling and giving God the middle finger, with our music up loud! And He said “I am going to let them burn under my wrath for eternity”! No, that isn’t what He said! He spoke loud and clear in the sending of His Son to stand in our place!
Think about God’s grace the next time you want to turn your nose up. I know I will!
I too have wondered this same thing. Is it really needful to blow up abortion clinics, snicker and yell profane remarks about gays, or even turn our nose up at the sister with “3 baby daddies”. As Paul said, I count not myself to have comprehended, but this thing I do, press toward the mark of the high calling which is in Christ Jesus. We all haven fallen short of the glory of God and only by grace through faith and even that is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God. When we look at the faith being of God, the grace being of God, and the high calling being in Christ, that leaves us broken and empty of all boasting. We ought to be out reaching the world with the messege of the gospel by word and deed. This is the messege of the redeemed church.
We give this particular saying lip service but most of us (self included) do not fully understand “There but for the Grace of God go I”. Bases on my past I could have easily been someone’s “Baby Daddy”, prisoner, or someone who just was ignorant as to sound doctrine. I thank God that for what he did in my life and understand now more than ever why my Dad’s favorite verse is Romans 5:8.
Even if this post weren’t a brilliant piece of inspired truth it would be worth it just for that picture. Yowza.
God, please help us to be your people and to reflect Your true character and heart to others around us.
I was praying this morning with a pastor friend of mine (we’ve only just started this every other Thursday) he said something about how we (pastors) are unworthy to carry the message of the gospel and the name of Christ, yet Jesus allows us to do so anyway.
I gotta tell ya, if every Pastor in America had that attitude we’d be in a lot better shape.
We, the “Holy Men of God”, the Pastors of the flock are unworthy to carry the Gospel or bear the name of Jesus – just like everyone else.
We all need Jesus. The sinners, the losers, the drunks, the prostitutes, the homeless, the wife beaters, the apathetic, the drug dealers, the pastors and the saints – all unworthy of God’s Grace. All free to take it anyway.
Praise Jesus.
kg
What is this, some sort of anti-white black racist group? Why do you hate white people?
I only hate green people from the planet Toptomium! They are the reason Adam ate the fruit! I would have been chilling but naked with a strawberry smoothie hanging our with a Lion and riding a Giraffe. Dang Toptomiums!
Lionel,
Brother, you have reached into my head. I wrote about this a while back.
http://christgloryalone.blogspot.com/2008/01/incarnation-and-immersion-friend-of.html
Our Christian life in America has become so isolated and mean spirited; we resemble the older brother in Luke 15. So we square away our theology, we nail down our titles, we esteem our brick and mortar while the sick and the lost continue to meander through life in a desperate need of hope. Now I do not want to generalize because there are many brothers and sisters who are out there with the “lepers” of society, yet imagine an army of professing believers out there proclaiming truth and at the same time being in the midst of undesirable circumstances. Isn’t that what our Lord did? Is that not what Paul sang about in Phil 2? Christ was among sinners yet took no part in their wickedness. Christ was eating with the whores and teaching alcohol lovers. For what? That they would see that hope is in Him, not sexual perversion, not substances.
Let’s take the name of Christ to the city people.
Thanks Lionel
Lionel,
You didn’t tell me that you hate white people. You sure do hide it well beneath all of that love.
-Alan
I can’t hate them all I at least got one white friend. Let me check my cell phone for a phone number! LOL
There’s quite a bit to respond to here, so I’ll make this as short and sweet as I know how.
Larry, you asked if it was needful to blow up abortion clinics. Well, I don’t know Larry, you tell me. 50 million babies have been brutally murdered since 1973. According to operation Rescue, every time an abortion clinic is blown up, one third of the babies that were scheduled that day never get aborted. Aren’t the lives of those little ones worth going to jail for? I mean, if the federal government in this country helped fund buildings that killed black people then would anyone on this blog object to me going and blowing it to smitherines? ehem. What about blowing up the slave market in Charleston, SC in the 1800s? Wouldn’t that man be considered a hero in our day instead of a murderer or bigot?
As far as yelling profane remarks at gays, well, I don’t even really know what you’re talking about. In the picture there is a sign that reads “fear God” and another one “M=FAGS.” Okay, say whatever you want, the first sign is a direct quote from the Bible. Fear God! That’s not a profane or derogatory remark in any fashion. In fact, it’s good advice. The second sign, the “M=FAGS” sign, in the context of homosexuality it is true. The term faggot goes all the way back to when the Roman Catholic Church used to burn people at the stake. The faggots were the piles of sticks that were ignited in order to burn the person being executed. Symbolically, any criminal or heretic that was burned at the stake was called a faggot because, it was believed, they would burn in hell the same way the piles of sticks burned on earth. This was the original definition of the word. Later on, as the term became more Americanized, the term was given mainly to homosexuals because the Bible says homosexuals will not enter the kingdom of Heaven. Is quoting from the Bible on signs really that sinful?
Larry, you are a hypocrite. You can’t stand people who bash other people, so you bash the people who are bashing. If what they’re saying is wrong, and if you think they need to just show the love of Christ, then how come what you’re saying isn’t wrong? Why not just show them the love of Christ you claim to possess so much of?
DD, before you go spouting things off, you might try backing up some of your claims, lest you make the rest of us look bad in the process.
Lionel, you’re only half correct. I think the aliens from zeta retticuli are way worse.
Philip, yes Christ preached a message of repentence to sinners, but don’t be so quick to stop there. Jesus was absolutely ruthless to the worst sinners (in his case, the pharisees, saducees, etc.) He called them dirty names (brood of vipers, white washed tombs) and on one occasion he used physical violence by whipping people out of the temple because they defiled God’s holy place and by virtue of that His name. Jesus was not always all lovey dovey with the sinners. And just like people on this blog are hatin on the people who bash the sinners of our time, there were people in Jesus’ time who hated on him for the same reason.
And blogger, just because Jesus “never went to a sanctity of marriage rally, an abortion clinic rally, a Supreme Court Rally, a Republican rally or a Gay parade” doesn’t mean it is wrong to do so.
Brother Lionel, You have really touched on a topic that I have struggled with and at times still struggle with. While seeking to change and correct, I have often neglected to truly love the sinner. Seeing that Christ died for the ungodly, we are to go and do likewise. The bible says that we will always be indebted to love one another. Aside from loving God,this must be our highest aspiration. May the Lord have mercy.
Thanks for posting D.A.
Let me ask you a question. How has all of what you provided worked so far in changing the world for the Gospel? Lets see:
1. California allows for gay marriages.
2. Since Roe vs Wade abortions have actually increased.
3. Divorces have increasded
4. Homosexuality has increased
5. Church attendance or those who feel Christ is the only way to the Father has decreased.
6. How about the whole Supreme Court? Looks like we are about to elect a very liberal president who will have the opportunity to elect liberal judges.
In other words those tactics suck! The only way and I do mean the only way to change the world is through the preaching of the Gospel! Law outside of man, and Christian waisting their time telling the world how evil they are without attempting to love them in any meaningful way sucks.
Finally if you want to justify the word fag by giving me its epsitomology I already know where you stand.
Oh and I wouldn’t like for you to blow up anybody to get them to do anything regardless of what that was. And the “government” decided that slavery was illegal and the south tried to break away from the Union which brought about the Civil War. The South was in rebellion to its country and by the sovereignty of God the North won. Read Galatians 5 and tell me who else doesn’t enter the kingdom, it isn’t relegated to Homosexuals! I promise.
Lionel,
Thanks for the help. It was not my intent to try and argue with anyone, I rarely get into these types of talks, yet I know that By the will of the Father, we are all going to have our day with Him. It is really not new to be called a hypocrite, but that is expected. As we move on to truth by the word of God preached. We begin to see that a lot of these tactics in the name of the Lord are really fleshy ideals and self exalting tactics. We are called to speak the truth in love, but we are never going to please everyone. I have no part in vain jangling, or coarse jesting, only truth by scripture.
D.A.
It is apparent that my words seem to be talking about the persons involved in the ministries of killing others for their beliefs, but it is not. I am simply stating that it is wrong to use non biblical tactics to bring about biblical results. We must love, but we must also rebuke. We are to display righteous indignation, but sin not. We are to correct, but also encourage. By God’s grace alone are we saved not of any works that we do. This is why we must not go to these extremes. Read Eccl 7:18 when solomon said that
Ecclesiastes 7:18 (New International Version)
18 It is good to grasp the one
and not let go of the other.
The man who fears God will avoid all extremes
I am not saying that God hates either one or that I don’t love them both, I am simply stating both extremes are entirely wrong.
First and foremost, our actions should not be determined by whether or not they have an impact on our world but instead on whether or not they are Biblical. I bet we could get a lot of people to like God if we paid them money to do so, but that idea is not Biblical and would be counterproductive. You still have yet to raise Biblical arguments against the actions I mentioned above, even though I have stated a case for them being Biblically justified.
For 1-5 (increase of gay marriage, abortion, divorce, low church attendance), I can say those things are a direct result of the tolerant culture we live in. People holding signs that quote from the Bible doesn’t magically make more homosexuals. Even homosexuals themselves claim that their alternative lifestyle is their choice. Same thing with abortion and everything else. People started being more and more tolerant of it, and before long millions of babies were being helplessly murdered. Is that the kind of thing you want to be tolerant of, lionel? Also, your assumption that the Christians who fight against abortion are not affecting our culture for the gospel is patently false. Read the books by people who survived abortions when they were young and are grown up now and consider their lives the direct result of the pro-life movement. Christians are heroes to those people and now they are acting as heroes to more babies. Lionel, as a black person I would think you would be more opposed to abortion than I am since abortion has killed more black people in the last thirty-five years than slavery did in a hundred. It’s a fact. I dare you to look it up. So before you get on your high horse about how Jesus never showed up at a pro-life rally, just remember that Jesus also said that “whatever you do for these little ones, you do to me.”
“6. How about the whole Supreme Court? Looks like we are about to elect a very liberal president who will have the opportunity to elect liberal judges.”
Umm, the election isn’t over and all the current polls show Obama and McCain at a dead heat. So don’t get cocky. Just remember that this time last year Hillary got cocky and where is she now?
“The only way and I do mean the only way to change the world is through the preaching of the Gospel! Law outside of man, and Christian waisting their time telling the world how evil they are without attempting to love them in any meaningful way sucks.”
First, I never condoned telling the world how evil they are without attempting to love them. I think fighting for the lives of innocent babies is very loving. For that matter I think warning homosexuals of the danger of God’s judgment and the danger of std is equally as loving.
Second, we are to be salt and light in the culture. It’s not an option. It is a direct command of our Lord so we cannot renege in our Christian duties. So, that’s first and foremost, but secondly, practically speaking, if we are not salt, Jesus says we will be trampled on. So we have to decide whether or not we’re going to obey our Lord and be the salt that he has called us to be or are we going to be the victims of a godless culture. Preaching the gospel is good and should be accompanied by speaking to issues of our culture. As you speak to the issues in the culture, God brings conviction of sin and righteousness and judgment to the heart and soul of the hearer which leads them to personal conversion as well. William Wilberforce was as strong of a Christian as any. The English slave trade finally came to a halt because of one Christian’s tireless efforts to get slavery abolished. It was a great success! But it didn’t happen because he preached the gospel at them. He had to show them the ugliness and the dirtiness of the trade and had to expose them for what they were. And people in his day hated him for it, but today he is a hero.
“And the “government” decided that slavery was illegal and the south tried to break away from the Union which brought about the Civil War.”
I don’t know about you, but I am glad the north did things that the south did not consider very loving at the time. So are you admitting, then, that preaching the gospel to the southerners wouldn’t have ended slavery? I mean, are you saying that you’re glad the north resorted to violence to end a brutal practice? I don’t have a problem admitting it. Why should you, a black guy, have a problem admitting it?
Don’t get me wrong. I simply just want people to know the only thing I’ve found that, without it, real life and real love can’t really exist – the truth. This was all my original point was. I believe we have a responsibility to speak it even when people who have a responsibility to learn it and hear it don’t want to. Sometimes that truth isn’t pretty. But I believe it was the truth that Christ used to save us. I believe it was the truth that Pontius Pilate longed for and you can sometimes read his words and hear in his voice that he was incredibly lost without it. I believe it was the truth that set the reformers free in the sixteenth century. When people had the Bible in their own language for the first time, it was very common for people to just stand in a town hall, in a church, or even on the street corner and just read scriptures out loud. People do that now, but back then people stopped to listen to it. Large crowds gathered around because they knew what it was. It fell on their ears like water on dry lips and quenched the thirst their soul had been longing for. I don’t believe Abraham Lincoln had a very high education level, but I do believe he knew what the truth was and I do believe it was the truth that allowed him to accomplish what he did. There’s a reason why to this day we still call him honest Abe. See what’s funny about all of this, is that even though I have never once had a history class in my life (at least one that I attended), I know enough to know that every time people are willing to stand up and fight for the truth, they succeed. It was true with Moses, Esther, David, Solomon, Jesus, Paul, Constantine, Luther, Patrick Henry, Abraham Lincoln, Martin Luther King Jr. and it would still be true today if we just had enough faith and stopped being afraid to walk in the foot steps of the heroes of our past. The road has already been paved for us by these great giants. The Bible doesn’t say we can accomplish all things if we do what other people want us to do or don’t do what they don’t want us to do. The Bible says we can do all things through Christ. The Bible defines Christ as the truth. What do you think Christ meant when he said in Matthew 5 that we have to be a light in the darkness? He meant that the world lives in darkness. It’s kind of like when you sit outside in the dark for a long time. Eventually your eyes will adjust to the darkness. And I bet if I came up to you with a bright light while you were sitting out there and turned it on in front of you it would hurt you at first. And I bet you wouldn’t like me at first. See, we live in a world where everyone around us has their eyes adjusted to the darkness. We Christians are the ones carrying the light of Christ. We shouldn’t expect them to like us at first. Christ said they would hate us because they hated him first. But you have to keep shining it even when they hate you for it, even when they cuss you under their breath. Because if enough time passes their eyes will learn to adjust to the light – the light that is the truth – the light that is Christ. 1 John 2:10 says “whoever loves his brother lives in the light.” When I had my daughter baptized I took an oath in front of the church to raise my daughter up in the truth. The only way I know how to do that is to live by example, lead her by example, and when she is old enough introduce her to He that is the truth. But at all times I have to try to be there for her to follow. And hopefully I will be one of those people that when she is my age and looks to the past, she will recognize me as one of those people in history that stood up for the truth and helped paved the road for her, the same way I look up to my parents today.
By the way, I’ve read Galatians 5, and I don’t disagree. I never said homosexuals were going to be the only ones in Hell.
D.A. – I humbly submit that Jesus modelled a way of changing the world that didn’t involve explosives or blood shed of any kind, except for our own.
Our Lord showed us how to walk in the Kingdom of God and how to love those who hate us, how to be like God and bless those who curse us, how to be like our Father in Heaven and allow the rain to fall on the just and the unjust.
Newsflash: God will not hold those “sinners” responsible for the state of our community or nation, he will hold us responsible. We are the problem, not them.
God says, “If those who are called by My Name will humble themselves and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, THEN will I hear from Heaven and forgive their sin and heal their land” – 2 Chronicles 7:14
What is it that God has required of us? “To love mercy, to do justice and to walk humbly with our God” – Micah 6:8
What did Jesus command us to do? To love one another. Love is what we are to be known for. Love, not hate. Not judgement. Not anger. Not finger pointing.
The truth is that you and I need Jesus just as much as those sinners do.
We’re all on level ground.
kg
DA,
Part of the result of the extremist views is this. A few years ago girls knew that they would be condemned if the were to go to these clinics or tell their parents they were pregnant, so a large amount of these girls began killing the babies, throwing them in dumpsters to die, sufficating them in plastic bags, or some other means of disposal. By God’s grace and favor, I envisioned a ministry called “Babies N Crisis” which would offer safe havens and annonymous drop off locations for these unwanted babies. Low and behold, the hospitals and police departments followed suit. The fact s that when we turned a nose up to the girls in blockading their carnal desire to terminate, they found more foolish and more sinful ways to discard their unwanted babies. Sin has a way of evolving around carnality, but it cannot evolve around God’s sovereignty. We are all spending time debating whether or not it is wrong to spit at the sin and not the sinner, but where is the reality of that calling in deeds that represent scriptures such as:
Galatians 6
Bear One Another’s Burdens
1Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. 2 Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. 3For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself.
We have to remember things like this:
1 Corinthians 10:22-24 (ESV)
22 Shall we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than he?
Do All to the Glory of God
23 “All things are lawful,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful,” but not all things build up. 24 Let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor.
or
Romans 14:15-17 (ESV)
15For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. 16 So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
There are so many more that tell us how we should approach these things with a delicate hand of caution, yet be stern in our faith toward Christ in the matter not wavering in what we stand for. I am an advocate for dealing with sin head on, or calling out false teachers and preachers, or standing toe to toe with those who oppose God, but I never forget from where I came. I was and am still prone to fall by way of our continuing corruption.
Another small point is that we are dealing with individuals who are by nature carnal and full of blindness. The bible says that the carnal man does not recieve the things of God for they are spiritually discerned. If we approach these individuals in a way that says this, we then break the yoke of bondage. As for the other issues, I myself have been attacked and almost raped as a youth by an HIV infected homosexual, and I have several in my family. My mind was furious when the first attack happened and as an unrepented soul, I wanted revenge.
As a believer before being fed with the fullness of scripture, I began to just be passive, but in my mind I hated homosexuals and all that they stood for. When I began to read the scriptures in context and in view of my own darkness that was in me, I began to reevaluate my approach. In my mind I wanted to save the world of this disease, but truly in my heart, i just did not want to face the horrible state of my own past. The scripture says that what these people defile themselves with is out of ignorance and blindness to the truth; therefore we are obligated to give them that truth, by means of the gifts that were bestowed upon us, by grace. Vengence belongs to God and they will be repayed, unless they repent and trust Christ.
Example of good submission; Martin Luther King Jr, nonviolent civil disobedience, not retaliating disobedience. If we break the true laws (Those that come from above) then we are wrong. Martin Luther king Jr, layed down his life in exchange for being heard, that is the biblical way.
Check this passage:
Romans 13:1-3(ESV)
Romans 13
Submission to the Authorities
1Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval,
This can go on forever, but the truth is that we may be on the same side of this issue, so what do we do now? We must find a way in Christ to band ourselves together, gird our loins with truth and be a living sacrafice for the spreading of the Gospel. Be a sounding clang in word (the word of God), not our own. I do mean literally the word of God has power to change and convert the human soul when used with understanding. It is good and perfect and pure. We take this in deed to those who are seeking to destroy life and in the words of Esther “if we perish, we perish”. Abraham Lincoln is another story, I am a historian as well and boy do I have some things about why he did what he did for us as african americans. By grace and peace, I pray that the eyes of all of our souls and hearts are awakened to the works that God predestined for us. The time is nearer that when we first believed. and I challange us all to put our body where our mouth is and be willing to die for the Christ, not be put in jail for disobedience to what God called us to obey.
Lets see how we can fight this thing together, email me @ skollarrock@comcast.net. Thanks I am outty, peace and grace be onto you from our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
D.A,
I never said we are not to be salt. Christ was
I never said that we are not to address sin and the need for a savior. Jesus did.
I never said we aren’t to call sin, sin! Jesus did.
What I am saying that the tactics we use is in direct opposition of that of Christ. Those guys that Jesus rebuked seem to have more in common with you than the sinners he ate with.
Lionel – great post. These are issues we should all be dealing with. It’s a discussion that needs to take place much more in the Christian culture.
Keith – as always your words are eloquent and timely.
Lionel, you said:
“I never said we are not to be salt. Christ was”
You never said not to be salt, but when someone does something that is salty you just say their tactics suck (btw, was the reference to oral sex necessary?).
“I never said that we are not to address sin and the need for a savior. Jesus did.”
Well then what’s the point of saying Jesus never went to a pro life rally, a gay parade, or a republican rally? It sounds like you’re saying Jesus never went to a republican rally so it must be wrong to do so. Or Jesus never went to a republican rally because their tactics were in direct opposition to that of Christ.
“Those guys that Jesus rebuked seem to have more in common with you than the sinners he ate with.”
I’m glad you have come to know me so well. Maybe you can take me out to lunch sometime.
Larry, Lionel, I know this is a long comment but please try to read all of it. This will be my last comment on this post so if you want the last word, go for it.
I don’t disagree with you about Martin Luther King Jr. He was a great man and a Godly man. However, I believe the scripture you quoted from Romans 13, is taken out of context. It says to be obedient to the laws of the land, but it should not be forgotten that the same man who wrote Romans 13 also wrote four epistles from prison and that both Peter and Paul were executed for breaking the civil law.
All the apostles were jailed or beaten at one time or another for breaking the civil laws. How is this? There is a law higher than the law of man and that is the law of God. Many slaves in the south, like Harriet Tubman, broke a lot of laws by escaping and organizing the underground railroad. Rosa Parks broke the civil laws, too. Was she wrong? Of course not. Even in the Bible we have countless examples of people who broke civil laws in order to be obedient to God’s higher laws. Israelite midwives kept babies from death by defying Pharoh’s direct orders to kill them (Exodus 1:15-19). Then in the next two verses it says that God blessed them for their disobedience and for their fear of God. Moses’ own mother broke the law by hiding him from the Egyptians (Exodus 1:22 – 2:10). I’m pretty sure that was a part of God’s sovereignty. In Joshua 2, Rahab disobeyed civil authorities by not telling them what she knew. In fact she told an outright lie. But because of her disobedience, God spared her life. Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego disobeyed their king and as a result God spared their lives and blessed them. Same thing with Daniel when he disobeyed his king. It would appear from the scriptures that God honored each and every one of these examples of civil disobedience.Ü In fact, Hebrews 11 specifically states that these were all acts of faith (Hebrews 11:23, 31-34, 39).
In the New Testament the Magi disobeyed Herod about reporting the location of Jesus. This seems to be on instance when God, Himself, ordered the civil disobedience (Matthew 2:12). When Peter and John were commanded not to preach the gospel, they defied the orders (Acts 4:19, 20). The apostles were eventually jailed for their continued defiance. God’s angel committed an illegal act by releasing them from jail (Acts 5:19-25). The Apostles were again arrested for their civil disobedience (Acts 5:27, 28). Instead of repenting from all this civil disobedience of the authorities, they stated that they must obey God rather than men (Acts 5:29).
There is one further incident in the New Testament which also bears listing. We are told that an armed guard was placed around Christ’s tomb and a stone placed over the entrance. A seal was also placed on the entrance (Matthew 27:66). It is a well-documented fact that these seals were common in the Roman Empire, and that to remove one or tamper with it was a serious crime, punishable by death. Apparently, Christ himself committed civil disobedience by breaking the seal. It might be argued that an angel removed the seal, but that only changes the culprit; not the crime itself.
It seems clear from these examples that Romans 13 is not the only passage dealing with a believers responsibility to civil authority. We are to take the whole counsel of God on any issue or doctrine. Romans 13 simply does not address the issue of what believers should do when government abandons its responsibility to punish evil and reward good. When government does abandon these principles it is called tyranny and these examples appear to give good testimony that God expects us to disobey such authority and remain faithful to him, whence justifying the acts of Tubman and Parks.
I sure am glad our founding fathers knew that God hated tyranny and were willing to break English law and resist it and fight it with brute force. British tyranny was wrong. It wasn’t solved through peaceful means but through a horrible horrible war where many brave men died. Slavery was wrong. It wasn’t solved through peaceful means but through a horrible horrible war where many brave men died. The Jewish holocaust was wrong. A war solved that too. But then when we come to the issue of the ruthless murder of babies, thirty-five years of trying to solve it peacefully and we’re no closer than when we started, and we think we’re doing what God wants us to do? Let’s see.
“Rescue those being led away to death; hold back those staggering towards slaughter. If you say, ‘But we knew nothing about this,’ does not he who weighs the heart perceive it?”
– Proverbs 24:11
If we are obedient to this command (not a suggestion but a command) then it is obvious that we must literally rescue and hold back these people. Nowhere in all of scripture is it hinted that this is to take place only if the law allows it. In fact, we have all of the above examples to the contrary. This appears to be a command to all believers; not a calling for a select few.
“Defend the cause of the weak and the fatherless; maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed. Rescue the weak and needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”
– Psalm 82:4
If we are here commanded to “rescue” and “deliver” them, then we had better rescue and deliver them; nothing else. This again seems to be written in the form of a directive; not a suggestion.
“Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy.”
– Proverbs 31:8
It doesn’t seem possible to “defend” somebody while we turn our backs on them as they are being aborted. Still written in the form of a command.
“Is this not the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and break every yoke? Is it not to share your food with the hungry and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter – when you see the naked, to clothe him, and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood? Then your light will break forth like the dawn, and your healing will quickly appear; then your righteousness will go before, and the glory of the Lord will be you rear guard. Then you will call, and the Lord will answer; you will cry for help, and he will say: “Here am I.” If you do away with the yoke of oppression, with the pointing finger and malicious talk, and if you spend yourselves in behalf of the hungry and satisfy the needs of the oppressed, then your light will rise in the darkness, and your night will become like the noonday.”
– Isaiah 58:6-10
This rather long passage describes what God says is necessary for a successful life. God seems to be saying that if we do these things which he describes then he will bless us greatly. What are the things he requires? None other than to “set the oppressed free,” “satisfy the needs of the oppressed,” etc. This is what it is that satisfies God.
“Stop bringing meaningless offerings! Your incense is detestable to me. New moons, Sabbaths and convocations – I cannot bear your evil assemblies. Your New Moon festivals and your appointed feasts my soul hates. They have become a burden to me; I am weary of bearing them. When you spread out your hands in prayer I will hide my eyes from you; even if you offer many prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are full of blood; wash and make yourselves clean. Take your evil deeds out of my sight! Stop doing wrong, learn to do right! Seek justice. Encourage the oppressed. Defend the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow.”
– Isaiah 1:13-18
Here God says that he won’t even listen to our prayers unless we “defend” the cause of the fatherless, etc. He also makes it clear that our religious duties are worthless unless accompanied by these defenses of the fatherless.
“The King will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.”
– Matthew 25:40
Surely a baby in the womb qualifies as among “the least of these.” If we rescue that baby, are we rescuing Christ?
“Religion that God our father accepts as pure and faultless is this: To look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.”
– James 1:27
The question is continually raised as to how we can “look after” them if we continually allow them to be aborted.
“Anyone, then who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, sins.”
– James 4:17
Seems clear enough. If we know the truth and do not act upon it we sin. Isaiah 25 reads that God will one day swallow up death. If God is in the business of destroying death then Christians must be in the same business! I mean, come on. It’s pretty simple.
You still with me, Larry? I’m just gettin started! That’s just how I feel about abortion lately and some of the things God has shown me in my walk. Now when it comes to homosexuality, I don’t hate the sinner. I really do just hate the sin. A lot of people don’t understand the reason why homosexuals are singled out the way they are for their sexual sins, when there are plenty of other people with sexual sins, just not homosexual ones. It’s obvious that homosexuality is one of the great hot-button issues today. Why is that? Is it because, as the world seems to think, that gay people are being “singled out”? I don’t think so. I have been an active member of various evangelical churches for many years and I have never once heard a sermon dealing with homosexuality. The church I attended in Florida would be commonly called a mega-church (ultra conservative) and I was there for years and, even there, I had never heard a sermon based on opposition to homosexuality. Sometimes, in sermons dealing with particular books of the Bible I have heard references to the subject but I have never even come close to hearing a whole sermon on the subject. I have heard far more messages from the pulpit calling on the congregation for sexual responsibility, for purity before marriage, for men and women to stop living together without being married and other such things than I ever have about the evils of homosexuality. I guess my point is that I don’t know where the world gets their information about all these so-called attacks on gays from Christians. I am speaking of the church itself, here. When we go out into society, as a whole, however, it’s a completely different story.
In society, it seems, there is a true battle going on. For instance, when parents send their children to school to learn how to read and write they are shocked when little Suzy comes home with a book telling them about Heather’s two mommies. Now, most people I know (and I know a lot) don’t go to sleep dreaming of ways to get into fights the next day. All they really want to do is go to work, spend time with their family and relax a bit. Then Suzy brings this book home and all Hell literally breaks loose. The parents are outraged that their tax-funded schools would undermine their own beliefs to such an extent. They are angry to discover that gay activists have been so successful in planting pro-gay materials in all grade levels and that teachers are telling their young children that the gay lifestyle is just one of many lifestyles they can legitimately choose for themselves, without a single mention of the dangers involved. They complain to the principal and get nowhere so they show up at a school-board meeting and then they get portrayed by the local reporter as being another anti-gay Christian zealot. Actually, all they are trying to do is defend the sanctity of their own family values. It’s the gay activists that seem intent on calling names (homophobe/bigot/etc) to any who dare to want to protect their children from this lifestyle. Also, there are parents who take an active role in their child’s life, including taking them to parks for family outings or to more organized activities such as Little League. For most parents, it’s no coincidence that at the largest parks catering to children and family activities there is also a large amount of blatant homosexual activity going on in the restrooms. So, what should be a fun day at the park often turns into a bunch of worried parents having to do everything they can to protect their kids from what they see as gay predators. I honestly believe most people would rather quickly adopt a live-and-let-live approach to gay people but they find themselves under attack from gays every time they turn around; at school at play and in the workforce. When they complain they are called bigots. The media is all too ready to fan the flames of this social battle and they are all too ready to portray it as a battle between uptight, bigoted, uninformed Christians against progressive-thinking people of good will who only want the right to love and be loved. Truly, I don’t think it’s that simple. I think that we, the Christian community, are under attack and we don’t need to be defensive about defending our beliefs or our lifestyle. The late Dr. D. James Kennedy once said that if the Bible didn’t teach that homosexuality is a sin then it doesn’t teach that anything is a sin. In the last few years we have seen denomination after denomination cave in to gay activists and now allow professing gays to be full members and even clergy. If we, as Christians, start throwing out passages of the Bible dealing with a sin such as homosexuality then how long will it be before we can, just as easily, throw out verses dealing with other sins; stealing? adultery? whatever? What does the Bible say about how Christians should treat those who infiltrate their ranks and still indulge themselves in a sexually immoral lifestyle?
“But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one.”
– 1 Corinthians 5:11
It might look like someone sticking their nose up out of self-righteousness, but I bet a lot of people are just trying to be obedient to the Bible. I mean, God forbid, right? So, I guess my point is, these people with the signs are not saying anything that isn’t true. The media has already portrayed us the way they want the world to see us, so this idea that we can’t risk looking unloving is false because we already do look that way. The greatest reformed preacher of all time was Jonathan Edwards. He was all the time preaching wrath of God, fire and brimstone and what not. Do you know why he did it? He did it because he loved people and wanted to warn them of the dangers. Truth and love has always worked hand-in-hand in bringing people to Christ. Why should we think we need anything other than that today?
So Larry, Lionel, When you see Christians getting angry over abortion and homosexuality, it’s because the liberals in our government are constantly taking our tax money and using it to fund planned parenthood or the homosexual agenda on our campuses. As tax-paying citizens we care that our money is being used for evil. These are things that concern our kids and as Christians we better care. We better wake up to what’s really going on. We had better inform, equip, motivate and support Christians to promote and defend the Biblical principles upon which the nation was founded because that’s tyranny any way you dice it. If you thought the last one was awesome, the next tea party is really going to rock.
You guys have the last word. I’m outie!
D.A,
I don’t know you well but out of the abundance of the Heart the keys type!
If you believe I have made a reference to Oral Sex your mind is perverted and I remember somewhere in Titus Paul says “to the impure, all things are impure”. I haven’t referenced Oral Sex at all, but I am beginning to see a consistent pattern in your comments here. So your fruit is becoming evident and it seems that most agree with my assessment.
Finally I see that you have not read the works of Johnathan Edwards at all. If you believe that less than 5% of his work is attributed to “the wrath of God” is always, then you my friend have a struggle with Math. You are correct. You and I can go back and forth but it would prove fruitless. I greatly appreciate your comments here so don’t stop posting. I may have some other things that you object too. This really is a freedom of speech blog. I don’t delete anything (unless it contains graphic information).
Also please note you got off on the wrong foot by calling me a racist. But I do greatly appreciate your time.
Many apologies for seeming to take Rom 13 out of context, but I beg to differ that it is very relevant. Read the verses prior to them in Rom 12:20-21, this is what Jesus Himself always practiced, and anyone who wants to follow in His footsteps must do the same. We are not to follow our own righteous indignation as though we have crossed a plain of righteousness that others cannot follow. We have to consult the word of God in its entire concept and not just in mere small pieces. We have to know how to reconcile seemingly different viewpoints presented under the civil, moral, and spiritual laws. We must do biblical exegisis on them, do hermenuetical study, and whatever other means of grace to clearly make our moves toward progress in this fallen society. Every move of God is carefully calculated and executed with grace and poise. We must follow in that alone. Sorry about this post, I just did not want DA to think I just throw scriptures around loosely without thinking about the content or context. Thanks again for this wonderful opportunity to live and learn.
May God open the windows of mercy on our souls and give us rest in Himself.
Dude, I never called you racist! But now I am calling you a liar just for saying that! Whose fruit is becoming evident here?
Hey it was DD not DA, sorry brother. I have slandered you and I apologize!!!!! Would you please forgive me? If not please read the most recent post! LOL.
Alright, we’re good again.
I think you are both probably right about some things and wrong about other things. Lionel, with everything DA said it would have helped if you could have responded with something a little more than answering his rhetorical question about oral sex and pointing out that Jonathan Edwards preached about things other than wrath of God. It still leaves a lot of what he said unanswered. DA, it’s very hard for people to take you seriously when you call names (like calling Larry a hypocrite) and it’s hard to see past your anger to understand your point. Over all I thought it was a good debate though.
Hey Stephen,
What would you have liked me to answer?
DA,
What would you have liked me to answer.
Well, I don’t have a stake in this so it really doesn’t bother me if DA is right or wrong. All I’m saying for you, since this is your blog, if you have nothing else to say to him then it is like you are agreeing with him, which I don’t think you are but that is the impression recession gives people. And if you agree with him, it calls into question why you would try so hard to discredit him on the Jonathan Edwards issue or on that other issue. I don’t really know that much about theology yet and I think it would be good to hear an opposing view. Other than it’s an interesting subject, I don’t really care, though.
Stephen, If I had not asked lionel the question about oral sex or made the brief statement about Jonathan Edwards then the only thing he would have commented on was me calling him racist, which I didn’t do and which he eventually apologized for. So it’s like he addressed the two or three things in my comment that had absolutely nothing to do with my comment, leaving it 99.99% unanswered.
Larry, brother, same thing goes for you. When you say “We have to consult the word of God in its entire concept and not just in mere small pieces” it’s like you are directly quoting from me when I said, “We are to take the whole counsel of God on any issue or doctrine.” Are you saying you agree with me too? Or just spitting out rhetoric?
And whatever you guys do, don’t learn from Barack Hussein Obama when answering questions from seven year old girls:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d667NAI9HIM
If he keeps talking like this the American people will notice and he will lose in November!
DA,
I would rather you call me a racist than a punk/coward!!!! LOL!!!! I will be back to respond (got breakfast and a graduation to go to this morning). But while I am gone, can you ask me more direct questions? It is easier for me to formulate a response. I don’t want to talk past you and it seems you are trying to avoid the same thing. Much love brother and I do see your heart for the Holiness of God, I just think you have a false conception that the world around us should behave morally! That is like expecting the Alababma Bilnd Boys to win a dodgeball competition.
“Much love brother and I do see your heart for the Holiness of God, I just think you have a false conception that the world around us should behave morally!”
Umm, yeah, I believe that everyone should behave morally. I didn’t know there was a lot of debate about that. So let me ask my first question. If they shouldn’t behave morally, do you believe people in the world around us should behave immorally? Weird. How exactly do you back that up Biblically?
Here you go:
Eph 2:
2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Titus 3:
3 For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another.
I will start there but I can give you at least 50 verses. DA, the unregerate sinner is a slave to their father the devil. They are blind and unless the Grace of God intrudes they will likewise perish. We too were dead, slaves to sin and our passions. But the love of God made us alive in Christ Jesus. So I don’t expect an unregenerate sinner to behave morally. They can’t! As Jesus told the Pahrisees they are of their father.
By the grace of God the world isn’t in total chaos. Immediately after Adam and Eve sin, one brother kills the next. We see a rapid decline until the flood, immediately after we see Babel and then Sodom and Gomorrah. In John it says “man loves the darkness”. Again without the light of the Gospel shining into their hearts (2 Corinthians 4) they will go as far as God will allow.
Does that answer your question. If we are talking about Christians that is different but if we are talking about nonbelievers, only the grace of God restrains them, which will be removed one day and we will see just how wicked man’s heart really is.
Sorry, Lionel, your verses do not actually address the issue of whether or not a non-Christian should or should not live a moral or good or Godly life. I, for one, actually believe everybody on earth should live a Godly life, regardless of what they believe.
“For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. . . .” Romans 1:19-20
“For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them” Romans 2:14, 15
Many people do not know this, but I couldn’t allow myself to come to Christ until I came to understand what these verses meant. People at church were always telling me that if you don’t choose to accept Christ as your savior then you will go to Hell. So I would go to church and ask questions like, “Well, if people who go to Hell, go to Hell because they chose not to accept Christ as their savior, then what about people in third world countries, those primitive tribes where no one has even heard of Christ? How is it fair that they go to Hell?” But you see this line of thinking is flawed. Romans tells us all are bad and therefore deserve to go to Hell. Even these people in the third world countries, though they may never have heard God’s law in the Bible, that law was written in their hearts and they still disobeyed it. Even if no one ever ever handed them a Bible and said this is how you live a moral life (don’t lie, don’t steal, don’t murder, etc) they would still know inside their hearts that it is wrong to lie, wrong to steal, wrong to murder. I bet they would instinctively know that they don’t like it when someone lies to them, when some steals from them, or if someone were to try to murder them. That is the kind of law Romans is talking about and that is why I believe everyone should live a moral life. If you liked reformed reading, I recommend reading R. C. Sproul’s commentary on Romans because he talks about this. That is why in his sermon series on abortion, Sproul says that every woman knows intuitively when they have an abortion procedure that it is wrong. Yes, Lionel every person should live a moral life because God said they should (Matthew 5:48).
DA,
I am not trying to be funny but your theology is flawed brother. Read Romans 6 for me. Not only that read the entire NT. I don’t disagree that manking has a law written on their hearts. The Law? Umhh… That would be stretching. You see there is a huge area I disagree with as it relates to Sproul and many others. That is the dichotomy of a moral/ceremonial law. I have written extensively about this so I won’t rehash that here.
However just because a man has some type of law (it it funny that no one has ever seen a group of individuals following the Sabbath which is just as much a part of the “law” of God as any other law) on their hearts doesn’t mean they can follow. Paul continually uses the phrase “slave” and “bondage” in Romans 6-8. So Romans 1-2 isn’t the extent of the book of Romans just flip 4 chapters over. Mankind are slaves to sin. And no matter how hard they try they can’t follow the Law. Look at Romans 7 friend. Paul says “the things I want to do, I can’t). If you believe Romans 7 is a Christian struggling with Sin then this man if indwelt by the Spirit and can’t help himself. I don’t believe He is a Christian. I believe he is one who the law is before his eyes and he understands that he can’t keep the rigorous demands of the law. As a matter of fact he says when the law came “I died”.
So your expectation of wanting a non-christian to live morally is the equivalent of wanting a parapalegic to run the 100. Yes he may understand the requirements, he may have even seen others run it, he may even have a track suit and shoes and have someone take him the starting line. But he lacks one thing that is the power to run it! He is a parapeligic friend. The same with a non-christian. Sure they may know the law, they may even read it, they may even be able to teach it, but they have no power to obey it, without the Spirit of God living in them.
So again your desire is faulty. A nonbeliever can’t follow the law because they are slaves to sin and those who try only do it for selfish motives. The problem with that is that they may think they are following it, and have no clue of what the Gospel is and still end up in hell. You see without the Gospel morality is like gold covered dung.
Let me ask D.A
Do you beilieve your morality contributes to your salvation? That is what is sound like in your 4th paragraph.
This statement seems to be the point of your comment:
“And no matter how hard they try they can’t follow the Law.”
Whether or not they can follow the law is one issue. I’m not arguing if they can or can’t. I’m arguing that they should, that they ought to be obedient. It was in response to when you said
“Much love brother and I do see your heart for the Holiness of God, I just think you have a false conception that the world around us should behave morally!”
And I’m still waiting for you to address that.
I don’t know how else to address that. For someone who has crossed from darkness to the light, you should know that apart from being indwelt by God’s Spirit, you can’t keep the Law. That is why Paul continually says “the law killed me” or “the law brought death” or he calls it a “ministry of death”. Why it is unkeepable!
I have addressed this about 3 different ways and don’t know what else you expect. An unregenerate man can’t keep the law, they don’t even have the desire to keep the law, unless that law somehow benefits them. But there are no laws against fornication, lust, sexual immorality if it feels good do it is the motto! Why? Again they are lawless, engulfed by darkness and slaves to sin and all type of unrighteousness. They are slaves to their father the devil.
Thus I shouldn’t expect them to follow the law of Christ (I believe the 10 commandments are obsolete Hebrews 8-9) . They can’t because without the Spirit is impossible. That is why I gave you the 100 yard dash analogy. How else you would like for me to explain this is beyond me. We have the civil law in place by governements that prevent total chaos but that is by the grace of God.
You are so totally dancing around this issue it’s not even funny. Lionel, I’m not asking you, nor have I ever asked you if non-Christians can keep the law. I am asking you if you think they should be moral. Above, you said they shouldn’t be. Not they can’t be. Not they won’t be. You said they shouldn’t be. So now I am asking you another question. If you want to know how else you can address what I said, you can start with a simple yes or no to this question.
Are you saying you think non-Christians SHOULD live immoral lives?
That’s it. Yes or no. Commentary isn’t needed here. Irrelevant Bible verses are not needed. It’s pretty basic.
Never said that they shouldn’t I said that they can’t. I believe everyone should be a Christian. I believe non-Christians will live immoral lives because they have no power to live any other life!
So my answer. They should become Christians apart from that they are hopeless. Not the right answer?
And then what do you mean by moral? For example
Greed
Patience
Love
Gentleness
Kindness
Selflessness
Is this the morality you mean? Or do you mean the “unrespectable immorality”?
“Never said that they shouldn’t I said that they can’t.”
That’s not true. Maybe you didn’t mean to, but in comment #29 you said:
“you have a false conception that the world around us should behave morally!”
You said that I falsely conceive that the world around us SHOULD live morally.
Now perhaps we should work on some definitions here. When I talk about whether or not people should live morally, I am not referring to whether or not unregenerate people can do things for the right reasons (which is to glorify God), I am rather talking about what C. S. Lewis refers to in the first chapter of Mere Christianity as a natural law. It’s that humans can universally agree that certain things are morally right and certain things are morally wrong. It is wrong to murder. It is wrong to steal from another. It is wrong to make someone else your slave. Also, some things are universally accepted as “good.” It is good to love your family. It is good to feed those without food. These are things which are pretty accepted across the world.
As I stated, unregenerate humans may not be able to do these things all for the right reason, but they can live up to a certain moral standard. Even Adolf Hitler did not kill his own mother.
That is what I was talking about with abortion. I listed a ton of Bible verses that support why we as Christians should be doing more to fight against infanticide, and it doesn’t help our cause when someone like you comes along and says, “Jesus never went to an abortion rally.”
It’s like now that blacks have been given equal rights in this country, they don’t care about fighting for the rights of others. If they voted 90% republican, instead of 90% democrat, Roe v. Wade could have been overturned by now.
Don’t get me wrong. I’m not blaming blacks for abortion, when we are all at fault. But the black community makes up a large portion of the evangelical voting block. You are evangelical, you are even reformed (making you more enlightened than most Christians), and you say you are a Christian first and a black second even though you have said in other places on this blog that you’re not going to vote.
Has the democrat party done anything favorable for the black community? They continue to raise taxes, they continue to pass laws in urban communities allowing failing students to graduate, and they have organized a welfare system that encourages people to stay at home and not reach the potential God gave them. These things have been strangling the black community for years and you don’t vote? Oh, but it’s okay to insult evangelical talk show hosts who do care about these issues and who do vote, right?
Hey D.A
1. I didn’t mean should that way, but I see where you got that from.
2. We should fight infantcide. Never said we shouldn’t. I said we should fight it with the Gospel. Let me give you an example. Give me one moral issue facing the New Testament community and see if they fought it by trying to get Rome to change the Law or getting people to change their hearts. What I see in Right Wing Christian politics is they would rather spend their time at the Supreme Court than at someones dinner table. They would rather spend their time at the voting booth than in the inner city reaching in and trying to understand the dire straits that the urban poor find themselve in. How do I know this? Because I lived their the first 60% of my life and 1 out of 1 million were there trying to help. The others clutched their purses locked their doors and try to vote the problem away.
3. I don’t like either of the candidates. I am most likely not voting unless somebody from the Independent party seems more aligned with my views.
4. Really that same welfare system is what fed me and my sister when our mom died from alcohol and drug abuse. It was the same welfare system that kept my grandmothers lights on. It was the same welfare system that kept us warm during the cold Michigan winters. My grandmother couldn’t read or write but she did her best and this “welfare” system is what kept us from some time or another from being homeless.
So you may have the wrong person. That is the same welfare system that kept the lights on so my grandmother could motivate me to make it out and try do something different than all of those who were dying on the streets everyday. I see you have no clue of what this life looks like and what exactly the welfare system does. I guess you would want us poor welfare ridden negroes to starve rather than pay a couple extra dollars in taxes?
5. So yes I have a problem with talk show hosts who have never spent a day in impovershied areas. Who could care less if I was drug addict or dead. As long as their precious nation was still “christian”. It is funny that our Christanity today looks nothing like we saw in the first century. That is why many today ridicule the church. It is true they love Jesus they just hate his followers. They are more concerned with their precious land, their precious investments and can care less about humans dying. It is funny that those who care about abortion care less about what happens to the kids once they are born. That is a wonder indeed.
First and foremost check this website out. It’s run by a black minister and it’s awesome:
http://blackgenocide.org/
“We should fight infantcide. Never said we shouldn’t. I said we should fight it with the Gospel.”
Well, why can’t we fight it with the gospel all the time and once every two years fight it in the voting booth as well? You know, for all thirty seconds it takes to vote.
“Give me one moral issue facing the New Testament community and see if they fought it by trying to get Rome to change the Law or getting people to change their hearts.”
That’s what makes this country so darn great! We live in the first country in the history of the world where moral people like you and me can play a huge part in the outcome of its politics. The fact that our political structure is superior to Rome’s means we have more opportunity than the first apostles did to impact our culture. That to me is more of a reason why Christians should engage in politics, not less.
“What I see in Right Wing Christian politics is they would rather spend their time at the Supreme Court than at someones dinner table. They would rather spend their time at the voting booth than in the inner city reaching in and trying to understand the dire straits that the urban poor find themselve in.”
If there were more right wing Christian politicians in power then there would be less poor neighborhoods.
If you believe we should fight abortion with the gospel, then why not fight poverty the same way. That is, before the government had all these programs to “help” the needy, poor people didn’t rely on government for their needs, they relied on the church. And then, not only would people get physical food, they got spiritual food as well. But now, the church is mostly irrelevant and the church is losing numbers because people are relying on the government. Left-wing politics saw an easy way to grab voters, knowing if they took money from rich people and gave it to the more needy people then the more poor people would vote for their politicians. In the process, though, many Christians lost money and had less money to help out poor people.
But it is all a big scam. In reality, the poor people are mostly employed by the rich people. So every time you take money away from the rich people, more poor people lose their jobs and income. Then we have all these jobless people with no money, so to fix it they have to take more money from rich people which causes more people to lose their jobs and salary decreases and all the such. The process of taking so much money from rich people results in less rich people to take the money from, which means now we have to tax the rich people that are left even more money to make up the difference. And this is going to go on and on and on. Why? Liberals know the more poor people there are, the more people will depend on the government. The more people there are that depend on the government, the more people the government can control. How do I know that a liberal government wants to control people? Liberals tell us they know how to spend our money better than we do, and then take it from us. That’s control. Liberals tell us we can’t put a manger scene in a public place. That’s control. Liberals in LA just banned a lot of fast food restaurants telling us they know how we should eat. This one is funny because I remember when a few years ago liberal city commissioners, being so anti-big business, in Chicago banned Walmart from the city limits. They literally told Walmart that they couldn’t build inside the city. So Walmart built in multiple locations around the city. And since Walmart employs so many people, eventually the city of chicago lost a lot of money because people who lived inside the city limits were traveling every day to go work at these walmarts. This move on the part of the liberals hurt the city so bad economically that eventually they had no choice but to let Walmart come in. The moral of the story is that the free market works.
“3. I don’t like either of the candidates. I am most likely not voting unless somebody from the Independent party seems more aligned with my views.”
Vote for the best candidate. Meaning, looking at their positions, relative to scripture, you don’t get to vote for perfect candidates… there are no perfect candidates. Therefore, your vote is always for the lesser of evils because all people by our nature are fallen, therefore, evil, to some degree or another. So, when people say, “I don’t want to vote for the lesser of evils,” well, when you die and go to heaven you’ll get the benefits of perfect government from Christ as King. In the meantime, in this world, all you get to do is vote on the lesser of evils.
Some people would say voting is not an exercise in idealism. It’s really an exercise in getting the best result that you can in a given set of circumstances. And voting for a third party is, by default, throwing away your vote and allowing a worse candidate to take office because of a very narrow definition of what makes a good candidate. Good people of goodwill disagree on whether that’s a legitimate strategy. I’m more inclined to say the idea of politics is to acquire power by using your vote. Therefore, you want to empower the person who most closely reflects your values. And, a vote for a third party, while I agree with it in principle, effectively usually only gives you the worst candidate as a result. So, I think I would be more pragmatic and say I want the best of two bad candidates.
Christians have to live in this world. We have our ideals, which we all concur are good and right and true. And yet, we also have the practical world that we live in. Would I want to, intentionally, in the name of idealism, put into office the worst possible candidate? I mean, how does that stand up to your ideals? That’s not a very ideal situation. This is always a tension, I believe, probably, within any movement, but certainly within our movement, where you have Christians who want all or nothing and effectively get nothing because they’re not willing to be pragmatic and incremental and take what you can get at the time and work within that and hopefully then come back later to get more.
“4. Really that same welfare system is what fed me and my sister when our mom died from alcohol and drug abuse. It was the same welfare system that kept my grandmothers lights on. It was the same welfare system that kept us warm during the cold Michigan winters. My grandmother couldn’t read or write but she did her best and this “welfare” system is what kept us from some time or another from being homeless.
So you may have the wrong person. That is the same welfare system that kept the lights on so my grandmother could motivate me to make it out and try do something different than all of those who were dying on the streets everyday. I see you have no clue of what this life looks like and what exactly the welfare system does. I guess you would want us poor welfare ridden negroes to starve rather than pay a couple extra dollars in taxes?”
Forgive me for not clearly articulating myself. There are some forms of welfare systems that I do agree with and that I wouldn’t mind the government practicing. Some things are just necessary (like it was for you growing up). The kind of welfare I am against is the kind that allows people to neglect their responsibility to themselves and to civilization. The kind that discourages people from finding a job. The kind that encourages people to sit around all day with nothing to do but do drugs and have sex with strangers. Because after a while, I’m not just paying to put food in their mouths, I’m also paying for their medical bills for whatever diseases they get from stds or whatever is in those needles, I’m paying for their medical bills for however many kids they get, I’m paying for the food in their kids mouths and then I’m paying for their porn. In my life, my job requires me to pass a drug test. And if I ever fail it I will suffer the consequences of getting fired and maybe legal consequences. But to a person who stays home every day, there is no accountability and therefore no consequences for wreckless behavior. Which, by the way, since a lot of this wreckless behavior involves sex with strangers, many poor families do not have fathers. And kids growing up without fathers results in more wreckless behavior. So of course I’m against that kind of welfare.
“So yes I have a problem with talk show hosts who have never spent a day in impovershied areas. Who could care less if I was drug addict or dead. As long as their precious nation was still “christian”
Well this is a precious nation. And Dobson and some of the others have spent their lives bettering it for everyone, not just rich people. But if you won’t listen to them then maybe I can convince you to listen to me. I’m a twenty-five year old evangelical christian. I was born and raised in the worst slums Miami, Florida has to offer. All my life I was known as the white kid. My sister was known as the white kid’s sister. But right now I am living the American dream because my I am better off than my parents are and I am able to give my kids better than what my parents were able to give me. My father kicked me out of the house when I was 17, and the only ones in my neighborhood who were willing to take me in was the Army recruiting station down the street. I learned some things when I was in the Army. I learned that when I got out of the Army I would have a clean slate that I could write whatever kind of future I wanted on it. This is the only country on earth where such a thing is even possible. Every day thousands of illegal immigrants risk their lives to cross our borders and enter our country just so they can live in its shadows. This is a precious nation indeed!
I know you don’t believe that this country was founded on Christian principles (just ask your great great great grandfather, right?), but I believe that with all my heart. The fact that those men many times fell short to those principles is irrelevant to the fact that those were great Christian principles. Our founders acknowledged that liberty is a gift of God, not an indulgence of government. No people in the history of the world have sacrificed as much for liberty. The lives of hundreds of thousands of America’s sons and daughters were laid down during the last century to preserve freedom, for us and for freedom loving people throughout the world. America took nothing from that Century’s terrible wars — no land from Germany or Japan or Korea; no treasure; no oath of fealty. America’s resolve in the defense of liberty has been tested time and again. It has not been found wanting, nor must it ever be. America must never falter in holding high the banner of freedom. For when people believe government grants us our freedoms instead of God, the government knows they can take that freedom away. We as Christians will never be able to impact our society if the government takes our freedoms away.
You definitely bring the noise DA,
1. I am convinced that government imposed morality NEVER works. Especially on matters that seem to be debateable. Very similar to abortion. Because of the faulty and demonic teaching of scientist and some other humanist people are convinced that an embryo is not a human. Laws will not convince them only the Gospel will.
2. I have to ask again, how is that going? Our impact through the government has no lasting impact. As a Christian again my job isn’t to see a moral country. It is to see the lost come to know the Lord Jesus Christ. Morality apart from the Gospel equals a bunch of people in hell.
3. There are many right wings now who ain’t done much for the poor why would more help?
4. I am not a leser of two evil guy when both seem to be so away from anything acceptable. Both Obama and McCain fall into that category. Niether of their policies seem to be acceptable. McCain gets in we will go to war with Canada, Obama gets in we will be killing kids at age 10 who are an inconvenience.
5. I agree that there are some problems with our system. But you must understand there are innocent children who will suffer greatly. And if we as Christians would spend less time in our safe churches watching performances and more time using the gifts to feed the needy and poor and spend time with them we would be able to meet those needs. So I agree there are many who take advantage the problem is there would be more children starving to death if we did not have it.
6. This is a precious nation to us, but tell that to my 84 year old grandmother. She had cousins lynched. She was born in rural Mississippi. Where white christians terrorized her and didn’t allow her to even use the same restroom.
7. If you believe these men were Christians and they hated others then I struggle with your assessment of Christianity. God clearly says through John that anyone who hates their brother that they can see and say they love God they are a Liar. I just can’t overlook that verse. They practiced hatred their entire life and many fought to keep their slaves during the civil war and fought to maintain Jim Crow.
8. Finally your last sentence is troubling. Why? Because it is anti-thetical to what we saw the first 200 years of the church. Under much persecution the church flourished. Under Chinese tyranny the church is flourishing. Whereever and whenever there had been persecution the true church has flourished. We don’t need the Government we only need the Spirit whom we have.
Well, we’re screwed if a lot of people think like you. Check out that website (http://blackgenocide.org/)
Hey no sexual euphamisms! Maybe so!
http://www.notconformedthoughts.com/UserFiles/Image/abortion.bmp
I will post something on abortion (if you search my archives you will see my position on it).
Honestly, DA, I wouldn’t post too much more. You forget that most of these people still believe OJ is innocent. To convince them their fundamental world view is based on false premises is like trying to convince Satan the odds aren’t in his favor. It may be true but it won’t change anything. See Matthew 7:6.
Hey Stephen let me ask a few questions.
1. How do you know what I believe about the OJ case?
2. Who are “these people” you refer to?
3. How am I or others who disagree with DA “dogs”
4. My worldview is based on the Gospel of Jesus Christ what should it be based on.
If there were buildings that just killed black people, you would go out of your way to vote for the lesser of two evils and you know it.
Thats fine now answer the questions. I answered yours.
I didn’t claim to know how you felt about the OJ case. I said most.
Most of “these people” means most black people still do think he is innocent
DA was throwing pearls that were being trampled on because “There are many right wings now who ain’t done much for the poor”
aww. sniff, sniff
Now, now Stephen. You aren’t playing nice! LOL
You don’t think our founding fathers were Godly because they didn’t end slavery right away, but you won’t even take a few minutes to vote against abortion on election day? I think that qualifies you and them as ungodly.
What if I believe things such as unjust wars and poverty and the ignoring of other humans (such as Sudan and Ethiopia) are just as important as abortion. Do you think God cares more about us allowing people to die at the hands of a tyrant government or abortion? What about ignoring the orphaned and widowed? Which do you think God cares more about?
The best way to end poverty is to end terrorism and spread capitalism and democracy. But then when we kill terrorists and give people of impoverished nations capitalism and democracy you say that is an unjust war.
The greatest terrorism the world has ever seen came from hands of the British and the American (just ask the Africans and Indians).
We aren’t doing that stuff anymore. I don’t want to punish millions of babies by not voting because of something our country did in its past. Of course if it was not for America or Britain you would be dead (or never born) and I would be speaking German. It is honorable to fight the kind of terrorism we are fighting now. Note that we have taken no land, treasure or oil from Afghanistan or Iraq. Instead, we have sacrificed lives and much money to give them a better, freer life. But anyway, answer my question. If America participated in such horrible terrorism in the past – if you were alive then and had the chance to vote against slavery – wouldn’t you?
Yeah you are right.
Now on to your question. Yes I would vote agains slavery. Now answer my question. Let me ask you someting in the last 28 years we have had those who are against abortion hold office for 20 of those years. Why hasn’t Roe vs Wade changed in that time? How has that vote changed anything to date and how will change anything tomorrow. First you must have people who willfully reject it.
Let me now ask. Is Bush for or against abortion? Answer very carefully because the Morning After Pill kills babies right?
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2006/aug/06082101.html
Whats McCain view on the Morning After Pill? Look hard, he has flip flopped, unless that embryo is less important than a 2 month embryo we haven’t had a president in 16 years who has been pro life. You think McCain will be?
Bro. Lionel,
It interesting to notice that you wrote this article precisely against the foolishness being expressed by D.A. and Stephen. They’re even willing to make it a black/white issue. Where is the Gospel in all this for them? Probably in the fields picking their cotton, so they can make their flags and hoods.
“Let me ask you something in the last 28 years we have had those who are against abortion hold office for 20 of those years. Why hasn’t Roe vs Wade changed in that time? How has that vote changed anything to date and how will change anything tomorrow.”
Well, first off all, even if those votes meant nothing, that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try or we should just give up. Second of all, roe vs. wade may not have been completely over turned, but those votes have allowed us to take a lot of ground. We finally banned partial birth abortion and just a few days ago, thanks to George Bush, we passed a law that allows Doctors and Pharmacists to not be required to prescribe or sell any form contraceptive that they hold personal convictions against. Please see http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/editorials/articles/2008/07/30/a_new_attack_on_birth_control/
I would also like to add that every Judge George Bush has put on the bench has been very pro life! So in the last sixteen years we have had two presidents and one of them was pro life.
As far as McCain being for embryonic stem cell research, it’s like DA said, until we are in Heaven and have a perfect government with Christ as our King we will have to vote for the lesser of two evils. That being said, McCain has served in Congress for 24 years, and cast a lot of votes on abortion legislation during that time. His record is not merely exemplary — it is perfect. McCain’s votes on abortion really could not be better. A campaign advertisement in South Carolina where I live says of John McCain: “Pro-life. Not just recently. Always. Never wavering.” The ad is true…Being battle-hardened in defense of life is a real plus. Twenty-four years of service at the national level — almost all of them in the Senate — make a big difference when we are talking about the next President. There is no need to speculate or to rely upon promises or take matters on faith when it comes to McCain and abortion. He has demonstrated himself to be the best pro-life choice.
He has voted for bans on partial birth abortion; he has supported the “Unborn Victims of Violence Act” and parental notification for minors; and he has voted against using federal money to distribute morning-after contraception in schools. He has repeatedly co-sponsored the Child Custody Protection Act, which prohibits the transportation of minors across state lines in order to circumvent state laws, requiring instead the involvement of parents in abortion decisions. What do pro-abortion groups think of Senator McCain? NARAL, Pro-Choice America, and Planned Parenthood have both given him zero percent, no-confidence ratings because he has stood up against them for decades. John McCain’s opposition to abortion has been completely consistent.
McCain’s personal life further reflects his pro-life beliefs. Many know that John and Cindy McCain adopted a homeless girl from Bangladesh in the early nineties from an orphanage run by Mother Teresa. While in Bangladesh, their heart went out to another young girl. After several hours on the phone, the McCains convinced their friends to adopt the other little girl. AND MCCAIN PAID FOR IT!
The McCain family experience is not unique; millions of families have had their lives transformed by the adoption of a child. As president, motivated by his personal experience, John McCain will seek ways to promote adoption as a first option for women struggling with a crisis pregnancy. In the past, he cosponsored legislation to prohibit discrimination against families with adopted children, to provide adoption education, and to permit tax deductions for qualified adoption expenses, as well as to remove barriers to interracial and inter-ethnic adoptions. So yes, I know McCain will be pro life and I know Barack Obama is not.
Stephen,
Please answer the question about the morning after pill! Is it abortion or not?
Brother Lawrence, the only reason why I made it a black/white issue is because of all the innocent black children that have died as a result of abortion. I think if you want to be leaders in the black community then this is something that you’re going to have to address. I’m not the first person to make this a race issue, Bill Cosby and Clenard Childress have been speaking for years about this stuff. Are they in the KKK too?
Yes, it kills babies. But what’s your point? Bush isn’t on the ballot anymore and is irrelevant
According to Reverend Childress, “3 out of 5 pregnant African-American women will abort their child.”
Where’s the gospel in that, brother Lawrence?
Really,
So what is the difference between Bush and Obama or McCain and Obama? Is McCain against the Morning After?
So you really believe that 60% of all pregnancies of blacks are aborted? Do you really believe that? That is a stretch brother.
Hey aren’t these the same innoncent children you don’t want taking up your taxes to feed? If you believe adoption is the answer look at the disparity of children in the foster care/ CPS system a disportiante amount are black. So I am confused what you want. You want the innoncent negros to be born and then not get any help because it is going to raise your taxes. Not to mention medicare/medicade, preschool, free lunches, student loans (if they make it to college) tax dollars for prisions (60% plus of all prisoners are black), the lack of proper funding for education, parenting classes and the like. So which one do you want. Not to mention with a 107 billion dollar deficit and McCain in the office (it look like we will go to war with Mexico, Iceland, and the North Pole they have ice) it won’t be enough to go around brother.
“So you really believe that 60% of all pregnancies of blacks are aborted? Do you really believe that? That is a stretch brother.”
I don’t think Reverend Childress, who is black, would lie about that on his website. He has worked too tirelessly for too many years to discredit himself. But it’s his statistic, not mine.
When it comes to adoption, I believe it is better than murder, I thought you would too.
Honestly, I’d like to see some responsibility though. I’d like to see men be the fathers that they should be.
When it comes to taxes, abortion scares the crap out of me. The baby boomers are about to hit social security age and a third of our generation is missing because of abortion. So yeah, we would have more people to take money from if we hadn’t killed everybody off.
Going to war with “Mexico, Iceland, and the North Pole.” What are you on, brother?
Only liberals abort their babies. If you think conservatives have such horrible philosophies then why not vote pro life so more babies can be brought up liberal?
“You want the innoncent negros to be born and then not get any help because it is going to raise your taxes.”
If they’re so innocent why should they die? I don’t want to help the kids by paying taxes because I want to have enough money in my wallet so I can have the money to help them myself and give them spiritual food as well as physical food. When the government helps people, they issue free condoms, which only encourages more casual sex and less responsibility on people’s part.
Taking people’s tax money was the left’s plan to remove the impact the church was having on poor voters. DA already explained how taxes increases poverty in comment # 43, though.
You’re being controlled by the left and you don’t even know it. If you’re so against slavery you’ll break free and vote republican.
“How has that vote changed anything to date and how will change anything tomorrow.”
The vote enabled us to ban partial birth abortion. Partial birth abortion being a major law that was passed when we didn’t vote pro life!
Dude, if you read nothing else, read this article about poverty and the black community. For the record, it was written by a black guy after Katrina:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46440
Are you an undercover agent for the Right Stephen? Here are my views.
1. I have voted Republican every since the 2000 (I voted for Clinton in 96 I was 18). That is Senate and Congress State and Federal
2. I am 100% against abortion, the morning after pill, and I am beginning to struggle with contraceptives (I however keep the contraceptive view to myself)
3. Abortion is never an option, unless the mothers life is at stake, and that hasn’t been proven too well, so I would search as far as my dollars would take me to find a doctor who could believe that both lives can be preserved.
4. I am a “trickle down” economics guy also, but I may modify it a bit because I believe we live in a time where most humans don’t care about their fellow man, thus taxes are necessary to ensure all of humanity is taken care of. I do believe however that higher corporate taxes are directly correlated to lower employment. We should have a free economy as much as possible.
5. I would also like to see men step up to the plate the problem is for 400 years they were taught not to be men, and for the next 80 years they couldn’t be men because they would be introduced to a rope, a tree, a shotgun and a dude in some bed sheets! That takes years to reverse and I think White Conservative American isn’t playing fair on this one. It is like a High School playing the New England Patriots and they can’t even take the field until 2 minutes left in the 4th quarter and the scoreboard shows 100 to nothing. And then the whistle blows and we hear “play ball”.
You see may not know much about me, but I have been enjoying the dialogue.
Stephen and I do know each other and usually we have only been bugging each other on other websites. Last month he started on his own blog and I am looking very much to challenging him there. Last night I made my own blog (click my name) and I have no doubt he will do nothing other than put me to the test.
I am looking forward to getting to know you even more in the future.
Thanks for the dialogue!
Forgot to add the link.
D.A. and Stephen,
There is no political answer to either the moral, ethical, or social problem that exist in America, in any community. Period! You two seem to believe otherwise. You have made the Gospel a secondary option to the voting booth. You don’t vote Democrat mainly because of one issue which you believe would make you a partner in the sin of another. However, you don’t feel accountable for the sins committed because of Republican policies. You can’t have it both ways! If the person who votes Democrat is responsible for sins (abortion being the main one) committed under Democratic policies, then you are also responsible for sins committed under Republican policies.
Here’s how I see it. If Republicans ran the country, the rich would get richer and the poor would get poorer. Racism would increase and so would the number of prisons. Wait, that’s already happening. If the Democrats ran the country, taxes would be too high and so would crime. Relativism would increase and so would indecency. Wait, that’s also already happening. You see gentlemen, as long as sinful man is running the country, then we can count on all of these ills continuing no matter how we vote.
And I have to ask, do either of you believe that whoever ends up in office was placed there by God (Romans 13)? If so, when you vote and someone else gets in office, do you repent to God for going against His will?
You see when your theology is political rather than biblical, and you look at America as a Christian nation even though Christ told Pilate His kingdom is not of this world, then you end up taking politics as the prescribed way to be salt and light in the world.
Sorry buddy, you lost your arguing privileges with us when you compared us to the kkk. We don’t respond to ignorance. Have a nice day.
That isn’t fair D.A you and Stephen called me a liberal, O.J loving, anti-patriotic ( I actually served 6 years Combat Arms in the Army.
I did not compare you to the KKK as it relates to their racism and treatment of African American’s. I compared you as it relates to the way you were using the “Christian” label as a tool to forward your personal/political agenda. This is exactly what the KKK, Black Liberation Theologian’s and some AME and CME churches all do in the name of Christianity. And it’s done by many other groups that I didn’t name.
Now you can either use the comparison I made as an excuse not to respond or you can simply prove me wrong. I suspect that that was the perfect out for you. Though no offense was intended by me, I can certainly see it as an easy way out of the difficult questions I asked. Surely someone as ignorant as me should be easy to refute, no?
Lionel, Stephen said most black people believe OJ is innocent. It’s not an insult, it’s true. Me nor anyone else called you unpatriotic or even anti-patriotic. Your service to this country is appreciated more than you know. Your accusation simply isn’t true. What Brother Lawrence did though, “Probably in the fields picking their cotton, so they can make their flags and hoods” would be like if I came on your blog and said you guys were nothing but a bunch of gang bangers or members of the black panthers. It was hate-filled and I don’t think it is unfair to not respond to that level of ignorance. Good try, though.
lionel, you should be embarrassed that he said that on your blog. You just made a whole post about speaking truth in love. I wish all your readers were as convicted by it as I was.
Bro. Lionel,
Let me be the one to be embararrased since I didn’t figure out another way to characterize the mentality being expressed by those who elevate political action over evangelism. The statement was about their treatment of the gospel or the “Christian” label as a means for an agenda other than Christ’ glory. I was speaking the truth in love through the clarity of the analogy, however, let me try again:
And where is the gospel in all this? Probably standing in the front yard of it’s home about to be shot up with Proposition AK-47 ballots. (Gang Bangers mentality)
And where is the gospel in all this? Probably in the kitchen cooking the eggs for the free breakfast program. (Black Panthers mentality)
D.A. I don’t hate you. I apologize that you were hurt by my statement. But not that you were convicted by my analogy. You should have been. You see, I was greatly offended that you made the mission that my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ gave to us, His disciples for which he gave His life, to spread the message of His kingdom through the preaching of the gospel, a secondary issue. Perhaps it should be a “both/and” issue. But if it’s an “either/or” issue, then believers must side with the gospel. So many politically active Christians are seeking to save certain rights that neither Jesus, His apostles, the early church for 300 years or the persecuted churches everywhere in the world today had. And all under the guise of protecting “Christian” freedom. That’s baloney.
Now you can either ignore the apology and my attempt to provide the context and comparative examples for my analogy or you can accept them both and allow your views to be challenged. Again, if I’m so ignorant, then it should be quite easy to refute me, no?
By the way, Lionel, I submit to any decision you make as to the continuance of this dialogue even the deletion of any of my comments that you feel D.A. may be correct about. I certainly did not want to violate the “Pursuit of Edification” which is completely biblical and with which I totally agree.
Though I’ve not said anything of late regarding this discussion, some things which I immediately took note of that I’d like some answers on. 1.) Seeing how much discussion has been occuring within this thread on the issue of the RIGHT VERSES THE LEFT AND which one has the truth, I’d love for you to possibly investigate this book which I’m reading (http://www.amazon.com/Soul-Politics-Beyond-Religious-Secular/dp/0156003287/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1218778313&sr=8-1). By a man by the name of Jim Wallis—-who wrote the book entitled “God Politics: When the Right gets it WRONG and the Left doesn’t GET IT” and is very balanced in his views regarding how often many will try to monopolize Christianity within the Right/Conservative Branches as if it has the lock on truth. For when the simple truth of the GOSPEL gets lost, what’s the point?.
2.) (and this is done in all humility/sicerity—though in all honesty, a bit of frustration as well)
As a Social Worker, Brah, if someone brought that comment up to another in an abortion clinic, they’d probably be laughed at—or in danger of being beaten up by others offended, seeing that many who’re CONSERVATIVE have had abortions. Happens all the time, as the stereotype that those who’re liberal/impoverished are the only ones having abortions is a flat lie…..and without any OBJECTIVE Evidence whatsoever. How many would be surprised by the stories of folks from the conservative middle class due and how many chose to have an abortion for fear of what their parents would think—as having a pregnant daughter within a high-class family might ruin the family name and in fear she doesn’t alert them. That, or the father simply doesn’t wish to take responsibility for the consequences of his actions when he simply wanted to “get it & hit it” and manipulates her into thinking it’s the best thing for the relationship. The stories could go on….but again, wanted to be clear that those having something as horrendous/traumatic as an abortion are NOWHERE near the claim of “liberals’ only….and saying otherwise is borderline slanderous.
Sure, there are Republican women who have abortions, even the very conservative types make bad decisions. This is because conservatives are also sinners. When talking about the Liberal Left and the Conservative Right in the abortion debate, its the issues not the individuals we should be looking at. And one of the biggest issues on the ballot is abortion. Now when Christians are brought into politics, what they have to look very carefully at is not whether to vote Democratic or Republican, but whether to vote liberal or conservative based on the issues at hand (the main one again being abortion). As Christians we should be extremely bothered by Obama’s position on the unborn, extremely. As it was mentioned in previous comments, we could very well reverse Roe vs Wade if McCain is elected. This is significant.
As for the number of middle class woman vs imppoverished women having abortions, women with family incomes over $60,000 count for only 13.8% of abortions.
I think looking at the statistics by race also helps:
“While white women obtain 60% of all abortions, their abortion rate is well below that of minority women. Black women are more than 3 times as likely as white women to have an abortion, and Hispanic women are roughly 2 times as likely.”
http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html
More information can be found here: http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.pdf
The abortion rate of women living under the poverty level is more than four times that of a woman living above %300 of the poverty level.