Someone asked me at church “hey man, when we forgive people, should we just put ourselves in harms way again, so they can keep hurting us? Does Jesus really expect me to keep getting hurt”? So in other words he was asking two questions. How wide is forgiveness and how deep is forgiveness. I am going to ask you all a few questions after you read these verses.
Matthew 614:15, 18:21-22;35
14 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, 15 but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
21 Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven………35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart
So here are the questions:
1. Exactly what offense against us should we not forgive?
2. How many offenses should we forgive?
3. Is it forgiveness if the person does not have the opportunity to harm us again?
4. In forgiveness how vulnerable should we leave ourselves?
5. How deep, long, and wide is God’s forgiveness of our past, present, and future sins?
6. Should we forgive the same as the God’s forgiveness in question 5?
7. Finally what are the consequences of us not forgiving this way? Or better yet what is our lack of forgiveness evident of?
This post speaks to something I have been struggling with in my personal life. I have a family member (not immediate) that consistently takes advantage of everyone in their life. Often in ways that are very hurtful.
This person finds ways to manipulate and deceive that I would have never even thought of. I have wondered if there comes a point that I simply cut this person out of my life. I love them, but they have hurt me and those closest to me in more ways and more times than I can count.
I have wondered if continual forgiveness is only allowing them to keep being the person they are. They turn the forgiveness and kind hearts of those around them into weapons to use against them.
Forgiveness for me has usually been very easy. This person has finally pushed me to the point that I no longer want to forgive. Sometimes I feel guilty about that, sometimes I don’t. I struggle with the whole thing though.
By the way, I replied to your comment on “Modern Church Translations”. Hope you will check out the response and the promised blog entry involving your question.
Brother I wrote this for myself also. I am struggling big time with some people and I don’t want to interact with them. My wife pulled my punk card at the dinner table! Straight pulled it!
I’ve been following the blog for a few weeks now - ever since Justin Taylor linked to your review of Trip Lee’s 20/20 - and appreciate the thoughtful questions you’ve been asking lately (even if I sometimes chafe at how they’re stated). For dealing with this topic, an important starting point is defining human forgiveness, or rather surveying what the Bible does and doesn’t say about forgiveness. I don’t think it’s obvious that biblical teaching inherently requires more of human forgiveness than the forfeit of selfish bitterness and vengefulness, although both Christ and Paul make clear that self-preserving avoidance cannot be our standard response to trespasses against us (whether such sacrificial actions are part of forgiveness or not).
Hey Mike two questions.
1. What chafes you?
2. Can you elaborate?
Thanks for the comments and gracious words
1. As chafing goes, some posts from the past week can serve as good examples. I think I could group chafing content in these ways.
A. Some incisive post titles and questions can come across as brash or mocking.
It’s The Remix Baby…
Why Jesus Would Be A Republican? I know the answer! [Christian Radio says so!]
We Can’t Have Consensus You Idiot! Laymen Just Don’t Know What They Need!
What would the church look like if we were to really practice the priesthood of all believers and shed the current clergy/laity distinctions that are so prevalent in our local assemblies?
B. Analysis sometimes lacks balance.
It’s The Remix Baby… posts felt like straw man insinuations in a diverse public forum like this blog; I’m guessing you’re responding to divisive, sectarian thinking characteristic of some Christians (on the net especially!), but those posts don’t acknowledge the ways that doctrinally uber-careful believers do love those they disagree with, or the problems/dangers of a “big tent of doctrine and practice” model for local Christian churches. In my home church, campus church (I’m a student at U. Illinois, Urbana-Champaign), and campus fellowship, I am confronting delicate disagreements that hold doctrinal convictions and personal graciousness in tension.
Why Jesus Would Be A Republican? I know the answer! [Christian Radio says so!] felt excessively mocking, but that’s largely a personal taste issue. More importantly, though, I think you failed to appreciate the cultural reasons for conservative white evangelical loyalty to the Republican Party, as surely as those same folks – and even seemingly more nuanced and independent guys like myself – have a hard time understanding why black Christians would vote for Obama (which Eric Redmond ably addresses here)
C. Deep issues are raised (and sometimes resolved?) at a blistering pace.
This is just a general observation, as I don’t want to start a reflective essay. I believe you’re raising big questions – and sometimes affirming big answers – on tricky subjects that Scripture doesn’t (seem to) answer definitively for us.
2. Did you want elaboration on the forgiveness issue beyond the linked texts in Matthew and Romans in my previous comment? My main point was that even supposing true forgiveness can allow for ensuring protection against future hurt and appropriate punishment of (not selfish revenge for!) past trespasses, the body of Christ is called to painful, “absurdly” merciful love of enemies.
Sorry about the weird formatting, Lionel; I tried to switch up font size using and commands because I thought that WordPress might support more HTML tags than it does. In the future, I’ll just space things out.
*Sigh* That’s annoying - there’s supposed to be bracketed “large” and “small” on either side of the hanging “and.” Lessons learned.
Got you.
Yeah I actually write in that tone for attention getting. Some of it is shock value, most of it is honest things people are saying. Not trying to defend myself but let me respond
1. In the Remix series it is for those being divisive. The scriptures clearly state that such divisivness is sin. We can’t make false categories in theology and then divide on them (eschatology, monergism vs synergism, gifts of the Spirit). For the other ones we would have to take a case by case basis. So whoever that may be, we must not violate the command to not be divisive.
2. I really don’t care what White Evangelical or Black Evangelical purposes are for aligning themselves politcally. If it infringes upon Christian love and if blacks or whites who are Christians use tactics that violate the scripture (such as Dobson twisting words, Smith saying that Obama is God’s judgment, or Jerry Jones saying he doesn’t know how Christians can vote for a Democrat like Obama) then I will call it sin. I can really care less about the history of it all. What we can’t do is what we are doing which is being divisive or non-gospel issues. So I meant to mock but I wasn’t distasteful (at least I thought) this is what I have observed over the last few years and especially over the past few months. This is despicable my friend. I also can’t see how whites voted for Bush the second time. I remained neutral in that vote because both candidates were to my dislike. I voted for Gore before that.
3. I am not trying to resolve much of anything. This forum is open to all and we will challenge anything that seems to have a non-biblical basis or anything that seems to infringe upon our unity in Christ. What i don want people to do is think.
4. I got what you are saying on forgiveness.
Now let me tell you why I write. Originally it was because most of the stuff that is passed off as Christanity in the black community is garbage! I love teachers such as Redmond, Sproul, MacArthur, Piper, Duncan, Mahney, Ferguson, Keller, Auturo is my favorite and other such man who run in those circles. I love their books also. I wanted to communicate the Gospel very clearly to people who looked liked me and who have had similar Christian experiences as me. The problem is I was them just repackaged, no critical thinking on my own just regurgitation. So I started to write for both purposes to think critically and get responses that my not favor my view and to write out my view. What I see across most blogs that are Reformed are the same things. Dogmatic views on church, culture, what the bible says, how church should be run, whats wrong in the church today, how if you do it my way it is right, and so forth. I wrote some stuff awhile back but stopped. I have decided to pick that back up and wrestle through some things.
So I will throw stuff out there to get people thinking. My titles are meant just for that. If someone is going to be dogmatic that we should only sing certain songs in “church” then I am going to challenge it with the same passion to match their intensity. Just go to your favorite blogs and see are they apporaching their topics graciously or with sure conviction. I am saying I am only fully conviced on 1 Cor 15 and Romans 3:21-27. After that lets have at it. So I have never meant to mock but maybe there is a bit of satire/sarcasm in my titles and post. My questions are the same way. Most blogs don’t ask questions (though some of my are loaded) they state doctrine that are debatable as facts. Things such as
1. Why you should leave a church
2. Church membership
3. What a healthy church looks like
4. How a church should be ran
5. How to preach a sermon
6. How to interpret vague passages of scripture
7. What type of music should be sang
8. What type of music God enjoys
9. What being missional means
10. Who should teach in the church
I can continue but it seems to me that when I read the big time evangelical blogs they are not coming with questions. They feel they have the market cornered on truth. So I hope that you hold them to the same standard of criticism (I believe criticism that isn’t negative is good by the way). So continue to challenge me brother and continue to comment. I am excited that you have visited here and you may come to realize that we have more in common. By the way I am not voting for Obama just in case that will give me some points with you.
Hey I don’t even know how to format comments so you can help me. I only like to write sly post and comments!
As you bring up so much good stuff, and I neither write nor think so fast, I’ll respond a little scattered-like. First things first, I do see your commentary as right-intentioned and loving, even when the titles are biting or the questions are loaded. From reading posts and comments, I think that we have a lot in common - a new birth, an adopted kinship, and a whole lot more - although our experiences and styles are quite different.
I thoroughly appreciate your wariness of becoming dogmatic clones of helpful teachers (this is especially important for people like myself, who have made a pretty recent 180 in the direction of reformed theology on the authority of the Bible, sovereignty of God, freedom of the will, etc.). We do need to think things through rather than just repackage what we hear because we trust the messenger, but in doing so should be respectful of their wisdom and wary of possible problems with shaking things up. As an example of the latter, serious practical problems come up if a local assembly of believers, harboring significant disagreement on theological “false categories” and/or church governance, to corporately worship and learn. Does segregating local churches according to disunity in those areas amount to sinful divisiveness? Or does sinful division require something more - namely slandering the faith of other Christians and rejecting their fellowship? I bet you have addressed that in other posts, but It’s the Remix Baby… and (I think) most recent posts have not hashed out a practical definition of wrongful division. Related to that, I am confused about whether you are saying that political disagreement, especially if passionate and intense, necessarily translates to division in the church.
Hmm, I also have an additional thought on the political issue. I do think that historical reasons for sinful conflation of the gospel and political agendas is important, both when considering James Dobson and Jesse Jackson. Seeing the history that explains today’s stumping from the pulpit, which happens on behalf of both Dems and GOP, helps us to be gracious with believers who are politically nutty. As a personal example, I know some godly older people in my home church (small Polish-language Baptist church in Chicago area… long story) who take cues from the dangerously whacky John Hagee in analyzing the modern turmoil in the Middle East. My family and others carefully push back against these wild dispensationalist schemes, which I believe are wrongheaded and sinfully violating of Scripture as much as is speculation that an Obama administration would be God’s judgment on America, but we do not let that nullify our love and respect for people who (unfortunately) embrace those views.
P.S. I’ll be around on the blog, but generally contributing less frequently. As for formatting, a good html reference is this page, although probably only about ten of the commands are supported by WordPress (at least for comment fields)
Clarification: “politically nutty” is meant not to apply to someone who would vote for Obama (although, like you, I will not; not that it matters in Illinois), or vote for McCain (not sure on that one), but rather anyone who merges the gospel with supporting a given candidate or party. Maybe some of this belongs in the “Why Jesus Would be a Republican?” thread… *shrug*
Good observation on forgiveness. Jesus’ example is a good one to approach. How many of us would forgive if it meant our life? Jesus did. We are told to be like Jesus, yet we fail miserably on this one too often.
As an example, I know of an account of a woman who was a missionary in a country that forbade Christian evangelism. She was caught, convicted and brought forward for execution. Her throat was to be slit. As the executioner drew the knife, she said, “God bless you.” He was so overcome by this that his hand trembled too much to perform his task. she reached up to steady his hand so he could inflict the mortal wound. (I suppose they hadn’t effectively bound her.)
Like Christ, she was willing to forgive even before the sin was committed - before he could have even asked for forgiveness. When we consider those we believe hate us and seek to destroy us or even merely keep us subservient (whether it’s true or not), can we bear this level of forgiveness? Yet this is the pattern of Christ’s forgiveness.