I am studying through Ephesians with my wife and church and we are currently in Ephesians 4:1-17. Once before I hit a snag with a brother who doesn’t believe he has to sit under a pastor or leaders in a church. Well we argued back and forth and after spending more time in the scriptures and applying my bible study methods. I have come to a dead end on something. Here are the verses:
11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,
So here are the two questions and it all hinges on the until found in verse 13
1. Do these gifts still exist in the church today?
2. Have we reached full maturity?
If we reach full maturity then there is no need for any of these gifts, if we have not reached full maturity these gifts are still necessary. This is what I get from the plain interpretation of these verses. So I am stuck to either agree with Derrick the Gladiator that he doesn’t need a teacher just like he doesn’t need an apostle. Or I stuck with those who hold to a 5 or 4 fold ministry (the four can be found on Alan’s blog). I just can’t seem to find a third category available in this text.
Bro. Lionel,
In the verse do you see the clause “until we all” as an individualistic statement or as pertaining to every member of the body as a whole? It is tough to find a third category.
Why do we take this list of spiritual gifts/gifted individuals to be complete, but not other lists of spiritual gifts/gifted individuals? What if apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers are simply a sampling of the gifted individuals necessary to bring the church to unity and maturity? What if in reality all people working together with all gifts is necessary for the equipping, work of service, unity, and maturity of the body of Christ?
Isn’t that what every other passage about spiritual gifts says? Isn’t that what Eph 4:16 says?
-Alan
Agree Allan, that is where I am going next. It is funny though that we only allow these gifts in other meetings, Sunday School, Small Groups or other auxillary meetings but not the “Sunday Worshp Service”. I am about to take it there
What up fellows, very interesting stuff here. Let me say this we can be taught under the tradional sense. But does it carry the wait by using these verses today? The problem is the “unity” which we all no it ain’t happening in these days so. 1Cor 13:8 to 12 key verse is 10 for me. We can look at it many different ways I know. Some may say do we have knowledge today. Yes we do the knowledge of the word of God. The problem is the charity never faileth, but that ain’t what these people are concern about. There thing is power man, and the only way you can get it is saying these verses in Ephesians. You all know what I beleive about the “we” past tense here no need to go over that again. But as I say that can people today “come in the unity of the faith” from what I see it looks hopeless at this point with the gifts here which some are here because were are here. Nice to here from you BandR
It seems that Paul emphasizes the more revelatory gifts. The point is that the church is united together by the Word of God. How can he not need to hear an apostle anymore (ie, New Testament)? Is anyone mature enough that they do not need to hear the Word spoken and preached to them? Just using the words of that text, have we attained to the unity of the faith? Have we attaind to the unity of the knowledge of the Son of God? Have we reached maturity as a body reaches adulthood? Have we attained to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ? Until then, we need to be under men who will teach us all the Word.
Also, if he feels as if he does not need to sit under a pastor, perhaps he must consider God’s design for authority. He created pastors to shepherd the flock with the care of the Chief Shepherd. Perhaps he needs to ask himself why he would not want such care for his soul.
Good questions Lionel,
Is this a combination of “gifts” and “offices”? or can we interpret these verses as a reference to spiritual gifts and apostolic offices respectively? I’m just a little curious!
Yo Lionel, where’s my other post? LOL You invite me to your site and then don’t print it, wassup with that?.
OK let’s get to business. I sat under these men that claimed Eph. 4 as their claim to having authority over me. That was then, this is now, and now I know better.
No bible was completed in the first century. For all of you who claim that we’ll be unified, please tell me how. Fellas, it aint happening, won’t happen, and already happened for THEM.
If you still want to hold on to the tradition of pastors be my guest. Somebody’s not doing their job!!!LOL. With over 360 denominations laying claim to recognize Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior and all disagreeing to varying degrees- your hope for unity is a joke.
Let’s not even get started with the Chief Shepherd appearing! LOL
Hey Ron,
You said:
“Also, if he feels as if he does not need to sit under a pastor, perhaps he must consider God’s design for authority. He created pastors to shepherd the flock with the care of the Chief Shepherd. Perhaps he needs to ask himself why he would not want such care for his soul.”
Based off of Matthew 23, 1 Timothy 3 and even 1 Peter 5, how do we say any Christians “have authority” over other Christians.
Secondly let me ask Ronjour (not combative) how long is one to sit “under” a pastor? And who exactly does the “pastor” sit under?
Finally is not Shepherdship more a servant role than it is an “authority” role or better yet is “pastoring” exemplified by service or by authority?
Hey CJ,
Man I appreciate the comment. But to answer your question nowhere in this text do I see an office, but I do see gifts, these gifts were to be given to the church “until” they reach maturity. Thus we have reached maturity or these “gifts” are still for the body (as far as I can read in this epistle)
Hey Alan I also believe you are right as verse 16 flows directly with 1 Cor 12.
Hey LionelWoods7 great answer to Ron should we wait for the answer, I’ll wait to see what he says.
Lionel,
Thanks for your comment.
It appears to me; at least, the charismatic leadership of the early church (e.g., apostles, prophets, evangelists, and pastors-teachers) was gradually substituted by regulated offices (e.g., elders, bishops, deacons). In the Pastoral letters for example, one find infrequent references or allusions to “variety of gifts” mentioned in I Cor. 12, but rather the stress is on the regulated “offices of the church.” By consequence, I’m offering a suggestion that some of the gifts listed in the Ephesians text (4:11-13) such as apostles, prophets, evangelists, and pastors and teachers could be well equated with ecclesiastical offices.
It is a little difficult to interpret 1 Cor 12:28 as simply a reference to “spiritual gifs.” At least, the language there that “God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers…” should not be taken lightly as simply a reference to “grace-gifts”. Notice here, “healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues are among the spiritual gifts given to the church (1 Cor 12:28b). Moreover, the text of Eph 2:20 affirms that “…the household of God [the assembly] was built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets…”
Apostles-
Moreover, Apostles, in the NT, means one who has been sent. The term is used in reference to the Twelve disciples, and of others associated with particular churches (2 Cor. 8.23; Phil. 2:25), and eventually to all Christian (John 13:16). Interestingly and contextually, in the early Christian assemblies, there were some criteria/qualifications determining one’s apostleship, at least two, (1) Have seen the Lord Jesus (1 Cor 9.1, 2), and (2) Have been a witness of his resurrection (Acts 1.21-23).
Prophets-
In the Old Testament, a prophet was an office associating with prophetic utterance.
In conclusion, it seems to me that apostles, pastors-teachers, and prophets could be classified respectively as ecclesiastical graciously-gifted offices.
Celucien,
You said, “It appears to me; at least, the charismatic leadership of the early church (e.g., apostles, prophets, evangelists, and pastors-teachers) was gradually substituted by regulated offices (e.g., elders, bishops, deacons).”
The problem with your conclusion is that elders are found in the earliest history of the church – Acts 14 and Acts 15. There is nothing in Scripture to suggest that elders/deacons replace the working of the Spirit through various spiritual gifts.
In fact, Paul tells Timothy not to neglect his gift (1 Tim 4:14, 2 Tim 1:16)… but he doesn’t tell him to perform as either an elder or a deacon.
I will agree that AFTER the NT was written, the work of the Spirit through individuals was gradually replaced by the work of ordained men who had special religious training.
-Alan
Hey CJ,
A few questions to add based off of your statement.
1. Does are the prophets mentioned in Epheisans 3 the same as the OT prophets? I believe these prophets would have lacked one great thing. Namely Christ (Peter says they longed to look into these things). The church is at a much greater advantage and the prophets birthed under the Church would have also been at a greater advantage having full revelation of Christ.
2. How would Barnabas had qualified? I don’t know if the scriptures ever mentioning him being an eye witness, but I could be wrong.
3. Can’t we say scriptually that Pastor/Teacher/Shepherd/Bishop/Elder are all synonymous? And if so couldn’t we argue that the Canon also removed the need for those offices because we have become as mature as we can be based off of Ephesians 4? Those who argue that Prophets and Apostles (we can call them chuch planters today with an evangelistic missionary lifestyle) and other spiritual gifts have ceased use the canon arguement why not follow my man Derrick the Gladiator and say that the other two offices and gifts have ceased also and we are all on equal playing fields.
4. Not being sarcastic here but why do we keep calling them “pastoral” epistles? Who named them that. Timothy and Titus, as far as I can see, were not pastors or elders, they were assistants and companions of Paul that Paul sent back to different areas to help strengthen them when he couldn’t (prison or in a certain geographical location and couldn’t get back to them). I am always left scrathing my head when people call them elders or pastors, they were both sent to recognize (or appoint) elders not pastor churches. As far as I can read biblically (Paul tells Timothy to come to him as soon as he can, not to stay there and pastor 2 Timothy)