I was listening to a specific album and also reading a really good blog yesterday. Both of them referenced Jer 17:9 which says:
9 The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately sick;
who can understand it?
I have no problem with this being referenced at all. Actually I even use at times when I am sharing the gospel, especially when someone says “oh God knows my heart”. There is also a parallel in the Gospel according to Matthew in which Jesus says “it is not what goes into a man’s mouth what defiles him…….For out of the heart comes evil thoughts”. So again I think this is a very weighty truth and shows the depravity of mankind and the verse can be used in such an instance but……….
The current usage of the verse
In both instances the person applied these verses to themselves or others as Christians and this is where I have the problem. Christian’s don’t have wicked hearts we have new hearts. I understand where people are trying to go when quoting this verse and applying it to Christians but I think they are wrong and gravely wrong at that. You may think I am splitting hairs and that this conversation isn’t relevant but give me a few minutes and I will explain why this isn’t so. The current usage is in the battle between our fallen flesh and our new nature. Both are at war with one another so this verse is used in the sense of saying “I really can’t trust myself, I must trust the word of God and the Spirit”. I agree that we struggle with the flesh because we have dual citizenship. Our primary citizenship is in heaven while simultaneously we are strangers or aliens in this sinful world and we have the ability to sin because we still have this corrupting flesh that we occupy. This however doesn’t make this verse applicable, although I get the point that is trying to be made.
The audiences view of this scripture
First lets see exactly what is being said just a few verses previous to verse 9 to understand what the prophet Jeremiah was conveying:
17:1 “The sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron; with a point of diamond it is engraved on the tablet of their heart, and on the horns of their altars, 2 while their children remember their altars and their Asherim, beside every green tree and on the high hills, 3 on the mountains in the open country. Your wealth and all your treasures I will give for spoil as the price of your high places for sin throughout all your territory. 4 You shall loosen your hand from your heritage that I gave to you, and I will make you serve your enemies in a land that you do not know, for in my anger a fire is kindled that shall burn forever.”
God is speaking to Judah through Jeremiah and proclaiming His judgment upon them. He tells them “I will make you serve your enemies in a land that you do not know”. Why is this? Because they have turned to other gods to serve them. Just as Israel will be conquered so will Judah. Judah held on a little while longer but eventually they gave themselves over to idolatry and the violating of the Covenant God made with them (thus the Old Covenant had land promises that were conditional upon covenantal faithfulness).
So first we must see how does this apply to us. The observation is quite simple. It does not apply to gentiles in its immediate context; however in its broader context we understand that all who reject the Messiah have wicked hearts and we see that in Matthew when Christ addresses what comes out of the heart is which defiles but what goes in the mouth is digested and discarded (the focus not on clean hands but clean hearts).
A Future Promise of a New Heart
Even if this did apply to all people there is a huge prophecy given 14 chapters later in which I hold in high regard because of its fulfillment in Christ. It is found in Jeremiah 31:
31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”
At last we see an answer for Israel’s problems. We have to understand what is going on here. Israel CANT KEEP THE TERMS OF THE OLD COVENANT! We must see that. We have to see that. We see in the New Testament Paul calling this covenant good and spiritual but also powerless. The covenant leaves mankind to himself and if left to ourselves we are in trouble. Israel can’t keep the terms folks. We see that quite easily.
1. Moses is gone for 40 days and they already make a god in the form of a calf
2. God keeps them and conquers their enemies and when they are on the brink of entering the promise land they punk out (we would have also) send some spies and shake their fist at God.
3. God conquers their enemies in Joshua and not a hundred years pass before they are already unfaithful to the covenant and we see the cycle of judges for 500 years.
4. They reject God’s rule over them and beg for a king.
5. The 3 king violates all the terms of the covenant by intermarriage and we see the rapid decline of Israel, the subsequent division of the kingdoms and idol worship becomes the norm.
All of this proves that God is faithful but the covenant made with the people is conditional. God always keeps His side of the deal but the mutual party can’t. It is impossible there is no life giving power in that covenant it is a covenant or ministry of death (2 Cor 3).
The prophecy fullfilled
In Hebrews 8 we see:
6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second…………
…….13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
The writer takes Jeremiah 31 and applies it to those who have placed saving faith in Jesus Christ. What is the centralality of this New Covenant? Lets see:
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
The New Covenant writes God’s law on our hearts and our minds and we are given the power to obey and respond. Ezekiel also makes a prophecy in chapter 36 but that is up for debate. Even if you believe that some of those promises will be fully realized in the Millenium you still must believe that the “new heart” and the “new spirit” are realzied today in those who have been born again.
In Closing
Once again this may seem like I am splitting hairs but I am not. My home church is going through Ephesians and it is important that we understand our position in Christ and exaclty what God has done for us in Christ. We have a high status before God and I don’t want us infriging upon this status by calling our new hearts purchased by the blood of Christ, chosen by God the Father and sealed by Spirit of God , wicked! We don’t have wicked hearts. We have new hearts which are beautiful, we have been born-again, we are new creatures, and we no longer have to struggle with our hearts. Our struggle is with the flesh and the devil. God has made us slaves to righteousness so we no longer need to fear our hearts, though the non-believer best fear it greatly. I want to tackle the wretched men but I really need about a 5-10 page essay on it to answer all of the faulty questions about the “wretched men” theologly that plagues our churches. God bless and love to interact with you thin.
Bro. Lionel,
This is another one hit right out the park. I want to ask you if you feel the same way about the “all our righteous deeds are as filthy rags” application as well. I think that if we were “created in Christ Jesus unto good works”, then it would seem that our righteous deeds are now NOT as filthy rags. What say you?
Hey bro:
Good issue to tackle.
I have struggled in trying to understand the co-existence of Spirit and flesh.
There are some who would say that our heart is now “good.” I’m not sure if you’re saying that, but it seems that you might be dividing the heart from the flesh.
While there is perhaps a division of these things, I have heard the recent error that the flesh (sinful nature) is not the “real me.” This seems to be along the lines of gnosticism.
I also wonder why we still sin if our hearts are “good.”
Perhaps the meaning of justification comes into play here, as well—that we are not yet “made” righteous, but “declared” righteous. Or as Paul indicates in Romans 3:23-24, “all are falling short of God’s glory, while (simultaneously) being justified by his grace.” I.e., Romans 3:23-24 is referring to believers.
So, are you saying that depravity no longer affects a child of God? Are our hearts no longer deceitful?
Thanks for the opp. to comment.
I agree 100%. You want to write it and we post it? Ephesians 2:7-10 is a huge blow to that application. But until we make a distinction between ethnic Israel and justified Israel in the Old Testament we will always use these applications. There were two groups within Covenant Israel. Saved and Unsaved. As we come into the New Covenant Unsaved Israel becomes just like an Unsave Gentile. Not so under the Old Covenant. Ephesians 2 says they had the promises and the blessing. Now Saved Gentiles are grafted into Saved Israel and we become One Church, One Body, and the Temple of God (Ephesians 2:21-22).
Hey Pastor Lance,
I am saying that we struggle with the flesh but our hearts are new. This is derived from the text of Eze 36, Jer 31, and Hebrews 8. I would say are hearts are not deceitfully wicked. Let me emphasize the wicked part. Especially if we exposit the text. Our hearts are now for God as born-again Christians with a new nature. Our hearts are not positioned against God anymore.
I understand the sin/flesh/sanctification issue. The problem I have with that perspective is we would never grow in holiness and righteousness if our hearts were decietfully wicked. So God says He will give us new hearts and take away our heats of stone, that He would write His law on our new hearts, and that He will be our God and we will be His people. We still have the constant problem of this body and its propensity to do as it pleases, but a deceitfully wicked heart would be pleased in disobeying and rebelling against God and our hearts are utterly displeased in grieving our Master. If not I would tell that person to examine themselves.
I think a lot of people that think that Christians fall into the Jerimiah 17:9 category would also say that Romans 7 is Paul speaking about himself after conversion. This thought is simply ludicrious. Thanks God for the book of Ephesians and I personally love Hebrews because the writer sheds so much light on the Old Testament text. The New Testament simply interprets the Old testament. We are new creatures and have new hearts. To me this basic understanding is elementary.
If I trade in my old car and get a new one-what does that mean? That means I get a completely new car, right? OR better yet sort of like getting a new engine-the old one is rendered OBSOLETE and the NEW replaces the old!!! So how can we possess our old nature if it no longer exists? Yes we have the propensity to sin until we see HIM but Christ says we are new creatures. So I guess we begin to question what Christ has said and try to bring it into what we call carnal christianity. Just a thought. Good article again bro!!
Thanks Ty. I appreciate it greatly.
BTW the Car and Engine Analogy is awesome the Engine Analogy actually is what fits perfectly with my view of the New Heart in an old body. There is still some issues that are bound to come up: window goes out, mirror breaks, breaks go out, A/C needs recharging. However there is still a new engine!
Brothers,
So in other words, the new engine does not keep the windshield clean, the air in the tires, the oil filter clean, the brake pads thick or the gas tank full. Thank God for maintenance (I mean sanctification) by the greatest Mechanic, the Holy Spirit! Or we’d all be on the side of the road waiting on the tow truck from Hell. LOL!!!
Great article. I struggle with this a lot. I used that verse in my blog too. The question I have is can our hearts condemn us? I am coming from trying to understand the verse in 1 John 3:20. John is speaking to believers as we see from the verses above, but what does he mean to say that if our hearts condemn us?
Karsten Miller
Hey Karsten,
I appreciate the opportunity to dialogue. Lets look at the verses in their flow and maybe I can answer the question:
11 For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. 12 We should not be like Cain, who was of the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own deeds were evil and his brother’s righteous. 13 Do not be surprised, brothers, that the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death. 15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
16 By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers. 17 But if anyone has the world’s goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God’s love abide in him? 18 Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth.
19 By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; 20 for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; 22 and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.
We see John talking about Christial love in this section. He is running people through the test of true Christianity (which I am sure you know). So he is using the term love and saying “we are to love in deed and in truth” he contrasts this love with the hate of Cain and says “those who hate are murders and those who murder have no promise of eternal life”. We can see the direct parallell in the Sermon on the Mount and I would be suprised if a bible with cross references don’t have this as a parallell.
He goes on to show what true love is and uses Christ as an example he then connects us into this type of love by saying “we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers”. How are we to do this is the question. He goes into the next verse and says “if anyone has this worlds goods and sees his brother in need”. You see he is bringing an intangible and making it tangible by something we do. There should be a parallell to James 2 “faith without works is dead”. How does James say we have dead faith? He says:
“15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.”
You see your faith is defined by your action and your love is defined by your actions. So we see how John is testing their so called love just as James is testing their so called faith. He then says “and he closes his heart”. This is the answer to the question. He is using heart as the seedbed of our emotions and affections and says the one who doesn’t love by action really has a bad heart. Lets jump in to the verse at question.
He goes on and says “by this” what is the this? That we share all good things with the brethern. Jesus always connects money and heart (a big area of struggle for me). Jesus says “where your treasure is your heart is also” it could easily be rephrased to say “what your treasure is your love is”. So likewise John is saying those who say they love but don’t want to part with their treasure (what you treasure is what has your love) by sharing with brothers and sisters in need have a bad heart.
This is why he says we can reassure our hearts if we do share and our heart can condemn us if we don’t. However he slides in a condition “God is greater than our hearts”. I belive he is saying. There may be times where our hearts condemns us because of our lack of love but God is the one who knows if you are truly saved. But he goes on to say “if our heart doesn’t condemn us, we have confidence”.
So if I were to summarize this section of John’s epistle it would go like this:
If we hate like Cain we are murders and have no place in the Kingdom. If we say we love but don’t want to share with others, which is an example of sacrificial living we truly don’t love, we hate and if our hearts condemn us because of this lack of love we have no confidence for salvation.
We have to understand exactly what John is conveying in this epistle which is found here:
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. 14 And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him.
The purpose of this epistle was to give assurance of Christ and to warn others about a false non-saving faith and this could be tested by:
1. Repentance
2. No love for the world
3. love for the brothers
4. Love for the truth
5. love for God’s commandments
This is why this letter is written to both the regenerated and false coverts. It depends on where you fall in the test. So if our hearts condemn us for a lack of love it may be that we are not truly born again, but if our hearts does not condemn we have bold confidence before the father.
Sorry for the long response but I wanted to show how this verse fit into the context of the immediate verses and the entire epistle.
I appreciate it, thanks for clearing that up. I understand that John was writing to strengthen his reader’s faith from the threat of gnosticism. John, even affirms this also in 1 John 5:13 of why he is writing the letter. Do find yourself being hard on yourself as you examine your faith? I came to struggle with this in the application of 2 Corinthians 13:5. I would look at 1 John 3:20 and just relate that to the sin that I may have done. Placing the entire text into context of the chapter, I see he is speaking on Christian love. How does the Christian handle examining his faith? Are you hard on yourself or do you just brush things off lightly? Where’s the balance? Sorry for the questions bro, I am asking because of some things I am going through at this time.
Hey Karsten,
Thanks that you would even seek my input on such a sensitve matter.
I trust in Christ and I think that is the point he makes when he says “God is greater than our hearts” If we are trusting in Christ alone apart from any works then I think we have confidence. This should over flow into a life of obedience in faith and that is a progressive work of God. So the question is when we examine ourselves what are we trusting? If our answer is to work harder, be more efficient, pray more and do more churchy things then we could have a problem. But if it is to rest in the saving wings of Christ and His work on the cross then I think in that we find solace.
So personally I always appeal back to the cross and not my works, because if you haven’t noticed yet when you think you got some paticular area of sin under control God sheds light on other areas you never knew existed. The Christian’s great interest and rest best be in Christ because santification is a perpetual work of God and it never ends.
Bro. Lionel,
I want to add my personal question to Karsen’s. Perhaps it is similiar to where he is coming from. Let’s use Christian love as an example. If Christian love is demonstrated by action, then how can those actions not be the basis of the confidence that you pass the test? It seems to me that in the “scoring” of this exam we can only count the misses but not the hits. Do you feel where I’m coming from? If I can’t look at the fact that I financially support my Christian brother who just lost his job as an indicator of my Christian love but I can look at a refusal to do so as an indicator that I may not be a Christian myself, then how is that a consistent exam? I get an answer on the test right and it counts for nothing, I get it wrong and it counts for a lot. Help me out!
BLD,
This is what I said in one of my previous comments:
“He goes on to show what true love is and uses Christ as an example he then connects us into this type of love by saying “we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers”. How are we to do this is the question. He goes into the next verse and says “if anyone has this worlds goods and sees his brother in need”. You see he is bringing an intangible and making it tangible by something we do. There should be a parallell to James 2 “faith without works is dead”. How does James say we have dead faith?”
So I am saying that is exactly what John is saying. If we are loving our brothers by our actions we have confidence, if we are not doing those things then we are to a self-examination. That is why I used the James 2 example. Our love is proved by our actions and our love proves our faith in Christ. So the test does work both ways.
If you are not doing you are failing the test
If you do show fruit of love by actions you are passing the test.
This what I believe John is saying here in Chapter 3:
19 By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; 20 for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; 22 and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.
The “knowing that we are of the truth” is proven by the works of love we show for our brothers and sisters. Does this help?
Bro. Lionel,
I had read that previous post and understood it. But I guess the following statement is what prompted the question:
(Bro. Lionel) So the question is when we examine ourselves what are we trusting? If our answer is to work harder, be more efficient, pray more and do more churchy things then we could have a problem. But if it is to rest in the saving wings of Christ and His work on the cross then I think in that we find solace.
(BLD) Did you mean what are we trusting if we are found lacking in some area? Or did you mean what are we trusting to assess whether or not we’ve passed the test? John doesn’t tell us to examine ourselves by whether or not we “rest in the saving wings of Christ and His work on the cross”. John gives us tangibles (as you said). But my question remains that if Christ’ work is where my confidence for my salvation should lie, then why is MY work the test of that confidence? I agree with you that the outworking of salvation is an obedience to and love for God’s commandments. But if our grade isn’t 100%, then how can we know if our 50% is enough to qualify us as a true convert. I mean logically it seems that anything below 100% obedience should be or would be a cause for a lack of confidence. Am I taking too mechanical of an approach on this?
Hey BLD,
The reason I answered that way is because he asked me
“How does the Christian handle examining his faith? Are you hard on yourself or do you just brush things off lightly? Where’s the balance? Sorry for the questions bro, I am asking because of some things I am going through at this time.”
So we switched subjects from John’s epistle to a personal account of self-examination. Now to answer your other question. Is becasue the bible says so! LOL!!!!! Really the bible tells us to examine ourselves and see if we fail the test. Next James tells us to show our faith by our works. Paul says we are created in Christ to do good works. Paul tells us to work out our salvation. All of these somehow fit in harmony with “justification is by faith in Christ”. How? I deduct scriptually that a Christian is first one who trust Christ and because of the faith in the saving work of Christ we then “put on the new man” and being to walk in the Spirit. While simultanesouly missing the mark daily and putting our trust back in what Christ accomplished “for there is now no condemnation”.
I believe this to be the Christian experience. But if you have no conviction, no fruit, and no discipline from God the bible says “God disciplines those He love” and “If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons”. So there has to be shaping by God and those are brought on by trials and even the loving correction of the Father. So I think the test is more systematic than it is one set of verses in a paticular book. Christ tells us to test the fruit, Paul tells us to work out and examine, James tells us to show our faith, Peter says be holy, John tells us to show our love by loving what God commands and loving our brothers while simultaneously hating the world and what it offers.
You see the greatest commandments are “to Love the Lord God with all of you heart, mind and soul” and to “to love your neighbor as yourself”. Christ does that for us and God credits His rightouesness of us; however we are still obligated to do it. We fall short so the 100% obedience is imputed not earned.
Bro. Lionel,
All I can say is thanks! That was an excellent examination. I have a tendency to be mechanical in my thinking and forgetting to bring in all that applies on a certain subject. You’ve spelled it out perfectly!
you are right on brother lionel woods.
Thanks Bro. Lionel. That really helped me get through – “to rest in the saving wings of Christ and His work on the cross “. God bless you.
I think my question is this: Would you say that the entirety of Jeremiah 17:9 is no longer applicable and that the Christian’s heart is no longer deceitful, as well (BTW: some translations say “sick,” rather than “wicked”)?
In other words, since I am redeemed, do I have a perfectly correct view of myself, wherein I now no longer need to pray as the Psalmist in 139:23-24 (cf. Jer. 17:10), who said, “search my heart . . . see if there be any grievous way in me”? (i.e., do I now have no blind spots or susceptible areas?)
Or perhaps in other words, are you saying that depravity now does not affect the believer’s heart whatsoever?
Would reformed theologians agree with this, esp. in regard to justification being a legal declaration, as opposed to an observable fact? (declared righteous vs. made righteous)?
I think within the context of how Jeremiah explains the Wicked Heart in Jeremiah 17:9 that it never has applied to Christians. I think my other is the fact that in the power of the New Covenant there would come some newness not just positionally but also spiritually. I still believe David to be speaking under the Old Covenant. He lacks the permanent indwelling of the Spirit unlike us. We have the fullness of the Spirit; however we have a flesh issue.
Next “there is none good, no not one” as it relates to our depravity is B.C (Before Christ). Our works are now accepted by God (so we no longer fall under the filthy rag condemnation) and we do seek after God, our hearts our now bent towards obeying and surrendering to Him, but our fleshly nature sometimes interrupts that fellowship. So when someone quotes Romans 3 I am the one standing up saying that is not the Christian experience but one who is an enemy of God.
I would disagree with some reformed theologians if they would say:
1. Our Works are as filthy rags.
2. That our hearts are wicked or sick
3. That Romans 3 applies to the believer (the earlier portions quoted by Paul)
4. That Romans 7 applies to the believer today.
I believe in each of those positions many see their currenty predicament with sin then reads those meanings back into it without following it through. Why do I say that?
1. We are created in Christ to do good works, because we are God’s workmanship
2. The bible says in Ezekiel when God puts His Spirit within us we would have new hearts and a new Spirit. I believe there is much more to being born again than just positional santification there is a new work in a new heart that bends us towards God.
3. Romans 3 is contrasted with a but in verse 21 so we are now righteous. As I think Paul is referring to positional righteousness in verses 9-20 he also is constrasted with justication in 21-27
4. Romans 7 is an ongoing argument. But Paul is a bit of a wacko if he says “we are not under sin” “we are slaves to righteousness” “we are free from sin” and then in chapter 8 he says “those of the flesh can’t please God” and that we “are of the Spirit not the flesh” but then in 7 he is a Christian that contradicts all he says in both 6 and 8.
I do get what is being said, I am saying however that we don’t find things personally then search scripture and use it to justify my position. In Jer 17:9 there is no way I can follow the context and apply it to the Christian. We still may have heart issues it just can’t be proven by Jer 17:9.
Finally I believe that Col 3, Eph 4, and Romans 8 to be “being made righteous” sanctification starts positionally but is flushed out in God conforming us to the image of Christ. This conforming is not a delcaration but an application. God is physically conforming us to Christ by working in us His righteous will by the Spirit. This is also in line with Hebrews 8.
Brothers,
Isn’t Romans 3 describing the condition of all men left to themselves outside of the grace of God? Who in their right mind would think that Paul is describing Christians?
For me Romans 7 is a bit trickier. First of all, the point that Paul is intending to make with this section (chapters were placed in by translators) is much blurred when not followed as a flowing argument rather than as broken up sections. Secondly, honest readers would have to say that phrases such as “I delight in the law of God after the inward man” (vs. 22) and “with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.” (vs.25) seem to sound like modern Christian language. And it is. However, that may be the problem. Paul was not a modern day Christian!
Since Paul has made it clear that all men have had the knowledge of right and wrong (or the law) written in their conscience, it should bring to mind in each of us that at some degree, as sinners, even when we did do wrong, not only did we know it was wrong but in a way we desired to be able to get the same pleasure/result without the wrong. We also found ourselves, at times, physically unable to resist doing that wrong. I mean totally helpless. At other times we could resist (what some may call common grace) but only temporarily.
Also, let’s take into account the big “There is therefore now” beginning to Chapter 8 vs. 1. We have to ask “Now that what?” in order to get the answer. In order to come to the conclusion that Paul is talking about his experience as a Christian, we have to take the “now” as now that I have said all I just said. But is that the way in which Paul is expressing his conclusion? My answer is no! Having failed to recognize Paul say in verse 2 “the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus HATH MADE ME FREE FROM THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH” we go on thinking that the Christian is in the struggle of chapter 7 verses 15-24. Paul is saying that now that he is in Christ, he no longer is under the condemnation that “doing what he doesn’t allow” or “not doing what he should” would bring to anyone trying to be righteous by the law.
Now to be fair, unless you believe in sinless perfection, it is no doubt that at times my walk or your walk may resemble such a struggle. But you have to ask yourself, have you been left this way by Christ or have you chosen this struggle for yourself through slothfulness or ignorance of what “newness” of life is at your disposal (for lack of a better phrase)? As Bro. Lionel has mentioned, with all of the promises of the glory accompanied with the new convenant (a new heart, new desires, new bents) how can this struggle be the routine of our lives. It must be that sometimes you succeed at doing that which is right and honorable to Christ. It must be that at some point you can consider yourself as having passed the test of a true Christian. And that without pride suddenly arising in your heart to make you a hypocrite. You aren’t always failing to do right? Right?
I would sum it up this way: Before salvation/conversion, we were perfectly unrighteous. After salvation/conversion we are imperfectly righteous, yet awaiting our fullest redemption to be manifested.
Hey what is funny is this phrase that many people leave out of the argument:
4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. 7 What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. 10 The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. 11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
Now follow me here bro:
In verse 6 Paul says: “But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.”
Now how can he say we died to that which held us captive and now we live by the Spirit then turn around in verse 11 say “the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me”? Now how can one be dead to the Law as a Christian then say when he became a Christian living by the Spirit that when the Law came he died? That sounds crazy to me bro.
A Christian can’t say those things at all. When the Law comes to us we laugh, why? Because Christ has become a curse for us, by taking on the Law and the wrath that came with failing to keep it. But let me continue.
Next how can he say the “law is good” while he says earlier that we are free from the law? Yes it is good and spiritual for those who are of the flesh but we are of the Spirit. One who thinks they can maintain or obtain righteousness by the law (a Jew) could easily agree with this but as Christians we don’t say the Law is good! We say the law is “comdenation and death” (2 Cor 3). But let me continue here.
He says “I know the law is spiritual but I am of the flesh sold under sin”. Now I am not trying to be funny here but lets see what he says in Chapter 6 and Chapter 8 about being sold under sin and being of the flesh.
Romans 6:6-7;17-18
6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. …….17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.
Now how can a man be sold under sin when he is free from sin and a slave to righteousness? This man in Romans 7 seems pitifully enslaved to sin. He wants to do right but can’t! Is that the Christian life? How can Paul says “shall we continue to sin” and then “how can we who have died to sin”? Now that is some fishy exegesis their friend. But lets tackle Chapter 8 and this flesh thing that Paul says he is under in Chapter 7.
Romans 8:3b-9
By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him
He says a few things here
1. Jesus fullifilled the righteous requirement of the law for us who “WALK NOT ACCORDING TO THE FLESH”
2. Those who live according to the flesh is death
3. The mind of the flesh is hostile to God
4. They can’t please God
5. We however are not of the flesh
6. We live by the Spirit
7. We are not in the flesh if we are Christians.
So can someone explain how Paul is speaking as a Christian in Chapter 7? If so he is doing some serious flip-flopping and this causes great confusion for someone who is reading their Christian experience into the text.
I am still wrestling on this brother, but it is encouraging to see your willingness to respond to the brethren who pose questions; I have 2.
First, are the “heart” and the “flesh” the same when spoken of in Scripture (though largely in the NT context)?
If not, please provide the distinction. After that, if there is one, please provide the correlation between the two.
No. I think Galatians 5 would define the flesh as seperate from the heart. I also believe that Ezekiel 36 would define the heart and the flesh seperately. Jesus talks about the “pure in heart” in Matthew 5. Finally I think Acts 16:14 shows us that God moved Lydia’s heart not her flesh. So her heart was regenerated not her flesh.
So I believe the heart is what is regenerated but we are left to live in this thing called the flesh which will not be fixed until the ressurection. We no longer have a heart issue we have a unredeemed body issue and this body/flesh is what we struggle with, though we are not enslaved to it.
So when Jesus says:
“But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a person.” (Matt. 15)
Why doesn’t He say, that these things “proceed from the flesh”?
To put it another way, when I have evil thoughts as a Christian, would you say that
a) my evil thoughts come exclusively from my flesh and not my heart? (a contradiction of Jesus’ words)
b) I’m not really a Christian, because I have evil thoughts?
Or
c) the evil thoughts come from my heart (being renewed but not yet glorified) and my flesh (which will never improve)?
(BTW: I agree with your take on Romans 7).
Brothers,
Just as a point of reference, I think that when the scriptures speak of the mind we should not think of it as that mass of flesh (our brain) with all the electrons firing. Nor should we think of the heart as that thing pumping blood throughout our body. I think (and I could be wrong here) that this is conceptual language in keeping with phrases like “bowels of mercy”, “eyes full of adultery” and such. I mean it’s not as if you could crack open a man’s eyeball like an egg and find a bunch of little adultries in it.
Read whose heart he was referring to
verse 8 “… but their hearts are far from me”
This isn’t the heart of th Christian in this context. I don’t where your evil thoughts come from but in this context he is referring to the hearts of those who are far from Him and those “who worship in vain”. Verses 1-9
Bro. Lionel:
Thanks. Context is huge, and I appreciate you pointing me there.
It seems that if Jesus were referring to the legalists’ hearts in particular, he would have said, “from YOUR hearts proceed,” or perhaps, “from unredeemed hearts proceed.”
I know we would agree that the issue in context of Matthew was a group of people who believed that sin came from outside of them.
So Jesus corrected their misunderstanding by telling them that sin (in general) is birthed in the heart (a man’s inner being). (cf. James 1:14; 4:1)
(see also Mark 7:17-23, where Jesus is speaking privately to the disciples and again makes a general, rather than particular reference, after incident with the wicked legalists)
So, whether we are followers of Christ or not, the question is, “When we sin, from whence does it come?”
Is its source the same for the Christian and non-Christian, or does it change after conversion?
(Again, I do not disagree that we are new creatures in Christ, as evidenced by our changed lives. Yet we are still falling short of God’s glory while being justified freely–Rom. 3:23-24——–in glory, this will no longer be the case).
May you have a restful Saturday in preparation for the Lord’s Day.
Appreciate your kindness in the discussion.
WILL THE REAL SON OF GOD PLEASE STAND UP Posted May 15th, 2008 at 02:23am WILL THE REAL SON OF GOD PLEASE STAND UP Posted April 25th, 2008 at 05:03pm THE CREATOR, (THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC, AND JACOB. CALLED YAH SAID IN EXODUS 4:22 THAT ISRAEL WAS HIS SON, HIS FIRST BORN. (12 TRIBES) ALSO HOSEA 11:1 HE CALL HIS SON, ISRAEL OUT OF EGYPT, (12 TRIBES) JEREMIAH31:9 LAST SENTENCE (ISRAEL) IS HIS SON (12 TRIBES) ISAIAH 49:6 ISRAEL SAVIOR TO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH (12 TRIBES ) CHRISTIANS ALL SAY JESUS IS GOD’S SON WHICH IS A LIE, THERE IS NO WHERE IN THE BIBLE AS A FACT THAT GOD SAYS JESUS IS HIS SON, WHAT YOU NEED TO SAY IS A VOICE OUT OF THE CLOUD THAT DIDN’T IDENTIFY ITSELF SAYS THIS IS MY SON WHICH I’M WELL PLEASED, TELL THE TRUTH DON’T LIE ON GOD ON WHAT YOU BELIEVE AND FACE HIS JUDGEMENT. BE A TRUTHEST INSTEAD OF BEING A CHRISTIAN READ WHAT IT SAYS IN BIBLE….( A VOICE THAT DID NOT IDENTIFY ITSELF SAYS THIS IS MY SON WHICH I’M WELL PLEASED THAT’S USED FROM THE NEW TESTAMENT..) AMOS 3:7 SAYS YAH WOULD (ONLY) REVEAL HIS SECRECTS TO HIS SERVANT THE PROPHETS…(ONLY)( I HOPE YOU ALL UNDERSTAND THE DEFINITION OF THE WORD (ONLY) MEANS) NOT GOSPEL OF DESCIPLES, OR APOSTLES, MALACHI 3:6 SAYS HE (CHANGE NOT.) THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN VALUDATE ANYTHING IN YOUR NEW TESTAMENT THEY MUST QUOTE THE WORDS OF THE PROPHETS, REMEMBER HE GOT THEM UP EARLY. SINCE THERE HAS BEEN MUCH RESEARCH WHY NOT LOOK UP A BOOK CALLED ISRAELITES SO-CALLED NEGROES BY BERNARD STEVEN HOOKS, THERE WERE PRIOR GODMEN, CRUCIFIED SAVIORS THAT PRE-DATE THE JESUS STORY…GODS SUCH AS HORUS, MITHRA, BAAL, ADONIS, ATYS, QUETZALCOATL, BUDDHA, KRISHNA, JUST TO NAME A FEW HAVE SAME SIMULAR JESUS STORY PREDATING JESUS BY HUNDREDS OF YEARS. YAH’S FIRST COMMANDMENT WAS TO NOT PLACE NO OTHER GOD BEFORE HIM. YOU BREAK THIS COMMANDMENT GOING INTO THE NEW TESTAMENT PUTTING JESUS THE GREEK PAGAN GOD ZESUS IN FRONT OF HIM. ISRAEL ALWAYS WENT IN TO CAPTIVITY BECAUSE THEY TRANSGRESS THE LAW, NOT BECAUSE THEY DIDN’T BELIEVE IN JESUS OR DIDN’T HAVE FAITH. THE SCRIPTURE READS HIS PEOPLE ARE DESTROYED BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF KNOWLEDGE, NOT BELIEF IN A MAN. A SIN OFFERING WAS ALWAYS A BURNT OFFERING IN THE OLD TESTAMENT, ABRAHAM ATTEMPTED TO OFFER UP HIS SON ISAAC ON A ALTER, LEVITICAL PRIEST OFFERED UP SIN OFFERING BURNT OFFERING WITHOUT A BLEMISH, NOT ONE HANGING ON A STICK THAT’S BEEN BEAT UP. I CAN GO ON AND ON, BUT HOPE WE CAN REASON WHAT THE SCRIPTURE SAYS, NOT WHAT ONE BELIEVES, IS IT POSSIBLE WE CAN HAVE A OPEN FORUM WHERE OUR PEOPLE CAN SEE WHAT IS TRUTH AND THE LIE, CONTACT ME ABOUT THIS FORUM IS NEEDED. CHRISTIANITY AS WE KNOW IT TODAY COMES MAINLY FROM THE TRADITIONS OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH, HAS THERE BEEN MUCH INVESTIGATION WHY THE CAHTOLIC PRIEST HAVE MOLESTED THE ALTER BOYS. WHICH CULTS OF CHRISTIANITY WOULD BE A GOOD ONE…BAPTIST, METHODIST, MORMON, JEHOVAH’S WITNESS, PENTECOSTAL, CHRISTIAN SCIENTIST, UNITARIAN, LUTHERAN, EAST ORTHODOX SECT, EPISCOPALIAN, PRESBYTERIAN, ANGLICAN, ROMAN CATHOLICS ( THE MESSIAH, SON OF GOD, AND SAVIOR COULD THIS BE THE PEOPLE OF YAH? ) DIDN’T THE PROPETS WARN OF JESUS IN ISAIAH 45:20 ALSO THE 44TH CHAPTER OF ISAIAH?