I was raised in a nominal black baptist church. My grandmother was heavily involved in the Usher Ministry which translated to me being a Jr. Usher up until I was around 12 when like most of my peers, the streets took center stage of my life. Growing up I never heard the Gospel as far as I know. Sunday after Sunday the messages never seemed to exalt Christ or His work on the Cross but once again my heart was hard so I really don’t know. To be a serious Christian in my city meant to be in some type of holiness Church (which I joined at 16) and those who were really serious became young preachers. I would always hear “you gone be preaching one day”. That was because I became serious about trying to please God and you can find more about that story on the Lionel link on this site.
A few years ago I was introduced to Reformed Theology by my good friend and brother in Christ B.J. My college degree led me to Blockbuster in which I was introduced to another brother in Christ Shannonwho put me on Piper and my friends that led to this blog and my embracing of Reformed Theology wholeheartedly. Before this words such as: justification, atonement, propitiation, reconciliation, Doctrines of Grace, perseverance, theology (and all the terms that end with ology) and reformed, were words that I have never ever and do mean ever heard. So where am I going? Glad you asked.
After having some interesting conversations with my brother Sho something became crystal clear. Many of the great reformers have very little interest in the inner city black community. Not only that Reformed Theology is always conveyed in the context of Middle Class to Wealthy White Americans. You see the reason why I never heard of Reformed Theology is because no one ever cared to share it with me. Reformed Theology is usually kept safely and secretly in Suburban America in which few if any inner city blacks will ever get a chance to hear the richness of it. Just wait and I will get to the heart of what I am trying to say. Just want to give you some backdrop.
What I am saying is I don’t know if many of the Reformed individuals yesterday or today really cares about us. You see if it were not for college, which many of my friends and relatives will never see, I would have not known of such deep theological truths. And now that I know it seems that to fully embrace Reformed Theology I must embrace the White Suburban Culture that comes along with it. To be fully embraced means that tattoos, baggy jeans, air force ones, Hip Hop, Urban Gospel Music, Church Hats, talk backs (the amens you hear in black congregations) and the like must be shed. Now I am not speaking for all blacks because we are much more diverse than that (from everything from Bach to Monet) but I am speaking about the people where I am from who will never leave.
Next we have the problem of contextualization. You see to be Reformed means you have to have a certain educational level here in America. Most of my friends and relatives from home, will never read a blog, never read The Decline of African American Theology, never listen to Piper, or Sproul (they wouldn’t understand the Latin and philosophical language if they would anyway), words such as Hermeneutics, Exposition, Expository Preaching and Homiletics will be very difficult for them to understand. My grandmother can’t read pass the third grade and many of the people who need the gospel where I am from and even in South Dallas are overlooked and talked passed and ignored. So what we have is the NOI, Jakes, Dollar and Jehovah Witnesses feasting on them like a Wolf at a sheep buffet. But you know what is funny?…..
I am contributing greatly to this epidemic. How you ask? By participating in Black Flight. You see as a Young Black Reformed Christian I have two options. Either stay and stick it out or run to the churches that preach the way I like. So in turn what I have done is further marginalize the people who I should be pouring my life and heart out the most to. Let me explain further.
You see many folks are talking about T4G and Pastor T’s unbeliveable sermon on Race and Religion. But as I got feedback from the conference one thing is clearly evident there weren’t many Blacks there. Then I asked why? One thing comes to mind immediately. How was this marketed towards Urban Blacks. Now for some of us who follow Piper, Dever, Sproul or MacArthur we knew about this a couple of years ago, but what about my Grandmother? Or what about the little black pastor? Even if they were to market it to these individuals how could they minister to them? The environment is White, the worship is White, the leaders of it are White and the cost of it (travel, hotel, and airfare) prevents many of blacks to ever attend it. This leads to my final point which is my heart on all of this.
Black Reformed Christians HAVE TO DO SOMETHING!!!!!!!!!!! We have to!!!! We have to!!! Our communities are plagued with violence, unwed mothers, poverty, brokenness, miseducation, false theology and SIN. We have to do something. I am not promoting a social gospel but a Gospel that is all encompassing. As I have stated I believe Reformed Theology communicates the Gospel truth more faithfully than all of the rest put together. So we have to find away to get it to those who need it the most. As we leave black churches we take there only hope with us. As we run to seminaries and plant suburban churches we in turn leave the poor, marginalized and disenfranchised to themselves and we can see who that is going every time we turn on the news.
Look I love my White Reformed Brethren. I just think they have no real conviction to minister to those people. Most will bypass the inner city and ghettos that their churches are close to and go across seas. They would rather go from Jerusalem to the Outter Most parts and that is okay for them but not for us. If we don’t do it who will? I want race reconciliation like it is nobodys business but not at the cost of locust destroying my community or better yet our communities. Most won’t and can’t read Wayne Grudem’s systematic theology so we have to chew it up and feed it to them. Most will never hear of John Edwards and Religious Affections but God has blessed us to so we are to feed it to them, most won’t read Calvin’s Institutes or Luther’s Bondage, or John Owen’s Mortification or Piper’s Desiring God or Packers Knowing God or Sproul’s Holiness of God or even Carter’s On Being Black and Reformed. So we must feast on these great men, their great works and feed it to those who need it just as bad. Listen Reformed Theology isn’t Suburban Theology but God’s Theology. We are to take His word to all nations and my friend the ghetto is its own nation.
Finally God hasn’t gifted us and exposed us to this rich truth to sit in comfortable suburban churches and get fat! We aren’t much different than the Aeropagites if so! WE MUST TAKE THIS GOSPEL to those who need it the most. Will it change their predicament? Will they embrace with open arms? Will they rush to hear what we have to say? Will they become Doctors, Lawyers or CEO’s? No, but we will be faithful to the Great Commission so if that means hard work and sleepless nights praying so be it. Isn’t every soul worth it? If you have read this far that means God has pricked your heart. There are some brothers attempting to do this very thing over at www.reachlife.organd some other pastors who have some ideas about think-tanks and conferences that may be the catalyst of a Black and Reformed Church Planting, Pastor Training and Resources for Seminary organization. Please be in prayer as we trust God for a great work because apart from Him we can do nothing.
Lionel,
Very interesting post and I share your urgency. You covered a lot of ground and I want to do justice to your comments so I’d like to focus on what I think are your primary points in gist:
– Reformed teaching is far removed from the Black community and black church
– The Reformed church tradition has been indifferent toward the needs of our community, where a comprehensive gospel is needed
– You’ve issued a call for black reformed Christians to mobilize and proclaim this great gospel of grace
One your first point: in the one conversation I ever had with John Piper (certainly a hero of mine) it was before he had his “The Sovereignty of God and The Soul Dynamic” conference and we spoke for several moments at the JEI conference in Annapolis. I shared with him that the need in the black church is not for Reformed doctrine but clear and accurate biblical teaching and preaching. You and I know what they entails, but I have observed that the notions of “reformed” principles and a 5-point didactic on the doctrines of grace will not resonate.
But the sovereignty of God, the degree of his love, the implications of his righteous holiness, the necessity of evangelization, the necessity of enduring faith, etc…these things do resonate and feed the spirit! Our challenge as Black Calvinists is to simply preach, teach and live the gospel of grace accurately…and contextually. Now, I will add, that the general educational needs of community should lead to our teaching about TULIP more formally as well, but the former is more critical. I wouldn’t worry to much about the absence of our white reformed brothers. Even when they don’t minister in our communities, their work is legitimate and needed. Those whom the Lord wants there will be there. If the Lord can use Israel’s rejection of him to draw the Gentiles, he can use the indifference of many reformed believers to draw you the ‘hood.
One your second point: the gospel entails discipleship and discipleship entails service. You are correct in that we have to emphasize the orthopraxy as a necessary companion to orthodoxy…and then live it! The gospel is the message and discipleship is the instrument needed to implement the whole gospel program you envision.
I would only add that I am less endeared to our cultural habits as it sounds like you might be (I’ll be addressing this on a future blog post soon…Lord willing), I could less whether our people hold on to baggy jeans or trade them in for Dockers, keep air force ones or lose them for Skechers, listen to Hip Hop or grunge: culture will always change to the times…I want to see that our people are embracing the habits that lead to productive and spiritual living: discpline, study, frugality, industry, etc. These are the traits needed for us to heal the wounds you describe. I really don’t need that our long held traditions last…I for one am way more interested in who we are in the 21st century than who we were in the 20th. Yet, I love Jazz, sould food, 80s and 90s rap…and love our people! But I love other traditions too, and can embrace their value along with my own…but I worry much about tangible progress than losing what someone has decided is black identity. [See what I'm saying here...I'm not arguing for abandoning black culture, I am saying let's not distract ourselves from real work but focusing on things that will change any way.]
On your last major point: Yes there needs to be mobilization! I think Thabiti’s model is a good one, which reminds me a lot of Paul’s, namely recognizing and dealing with our community issues while embracing people in other communities in full love and neighborliness, and thereby creating new communities…with diminishing or nullifying the old one. I think our mobilization should follow that Spirit! I would point to the work of Ken Jones and Anthony Carter as other good examples…
But, you are correct that wee need to organize and have conferences, and as Anthony Carter says, we need to write and publish, etc. We also need to do the hard local church work of teaching, living, and sharing Jesus Christ. And don’t give up reaching outside your local community to other cultures and believers, we need to constantly remind ourselves of the universality of Christ.
Anyhow, be well…here’s my blog link…feel free to join in the discussion there anytime as well: http://darrylwilliamson.blogspot.com/
Darryl
I am writing this to let you know that I stand with you. I am here in Conway, Arkansas and simply I feel as if I am the only one as well. Yet you are right the Word of God has to be taken to the people.
Hey Pastor Williamson you said this:
“but I worry much about tangible progress than losing what someone has decided is black identity. [See what I'm saying here...I'm not arguing for abandoning black culture, I am saying let's not distract ourselves from real work but focusing on things that will change any way.]”
I think those things don’t change much. Let me give you an example. Hooping (or estatic preaching) has no more left the black church than blacks have left soul food (just an example) But really what I am saying is that typically to be Reformed (which you described as the sovereignty of God (election?) the degree of His love (could that be the Love for His elect and Christs substitutionary atonement?) the necessity of enduring faith (the doctrine of perseverance)) you have to live it out in a local fellowship and this is where the problem begins. It is very rare to find such teaching outside of Reformed Circles, very rare indeed.
Next you said:
“I wouldn’t worry to much about the absence of our white reformed brothers. Even when they don’t minister in our communities, their work is legitimate and needed. Those whom the Lord wants there will be there. If the Lord can use Israel’s rejection of him to draw the Gentiles, he can use the indifference of many reformed believers to draw you the ‘hood.”
On this I agree however is it wrong to address the lack of it. Yes God used Israel’s rejection but Israel’s rejection was still a huge issue for Paul (Romans 11?) Paul wished to be cut off for such a rejection and I am saying that where is this conviction from those of Reformed circles who have rejected the Great Commission by bypassing Samaria and going to the outtermost parts?
You see my bone to pick is with individuals who are quick to point out the faults of the Prosperity Gospel, the faults of BLT and the faults of unfaithful leaders in the community while simultaneously remaining safe in Suburbia and doing very little to bring truth to same areas where these false doctrines are the norm. I am going to every blog and all over they are pointing out the heretical Mr. Wright while at the same time doing nothing to fix the problem. I am seeing books like Charismatic Chaos (which is a much needed book minus the misrepresentations in it) but not much is being done to bring true theology to breeding grounds of such theology.
Finally I want to ensure that I convey I love my brothers and sisters in Christ rather that is Beverly Hills, Sundan, China or Southside Chicago. I am grateful for brothers like Piper, Dever, Sproul, Lawson, MacArthur, Duncan, Keller, Ryken, MLJ, Edwards, Owens and Pink to name a few. My frustration as you can see is with Black Flight and my dillema. Most blacks have two options.
1. Flee to a white church where biblical fidelity is of the utmost importance.
2. Remain in a church where the Gospel isn’t preached and Christ is minimized to a self help guru.
You see once again option two is the only option for those outside of Suburban proximity and this conversation like many will miss them unless WE do something about it.
Hey Lionel,
Thanks for your additional comments and I’d like to share some more thoughts as well…as I re-read my earlier comments, I wish I had proof-read before posting!
Your comment “I think those things don’t change much. Let me give you an example. Hooping (or estatic preaching) has no more left the black church than blacks have left soul food (just an example)”…but those items have changed significantly over the years! Black preaching has gone through significant modifications…there is still estaticism, but it has a different form, in fact most of what we think of as whooping today is very different from what we grew up with. TD Jakes’ style of a running commentary mixed in with life coaching is probably more emulated than anyone else’s on the black preaching circuit, and it is hardly whooping.
Do you know a lot of black people who eat soul food regularly? I grew up in TN and none of my my older brothers do in their homes, my Mom is 78 years and she doesn’t cook it…but she did 30 years ago!
My point: we are changing and in realizing that anthopologically cultures always change we really want to be laser fixed on those things that really impact our community’s future. Anyhow, I think this is a minor point so let me address your larger and significant comments…
My brother, I don’t believe you have to leave our community to live out your faith in a Reformed way. Of course, there are some churches we want our people to run away from! But, I believe a reformed brother can minister within, serve and impact an evangelical fellowship that is not Reformed…and enjoy genuine and mutual Christian love. I believe the movement for biblical doctrine within our churches, based on the doctrines of grace, will take many years. I see this as a multi-generational struggle that will take many of us patiently serving within churches full of God’s people and with Sr pastors who don’t understand theology very well in general and certainly not the particulars of Reformed thinking. Ten years ago, in my current fellowship, when I talked about election and predestination [with ample biblical support], bible study attendees were in shock! Some doubted me, but they don’t today because the over the years the biblical force and clarity has sunk into their minds and hearts. This model, I believe, is the destiny of our reformation over the next 15-20 years, especially when you consider all of the repackage work that will be needed to undo the damage of the prosperity / “it’s all about you” preachers!
Your thought: “You see my bone to pick is with individuals who are quick to point out the faults of the Prosperity Gospel, the faults of BLT and the faults of unfaithful leaders in the community while simultaneously remaining safe in Suburbia and doing very little to bring truth to same areas where these false doctrines are the norm.”
- I completely agree with you on this one, and there is a similar sentiment by many of us who are worn on the limited achievements of the reconciliation movement. But hey, if Paul’s heart for his people [which is instructive for us regarding the fact that one can be spiritually mature and culturally minded] was a mere side comment in his great march toward the gentiles, I think there’s room for you and I to continue our labor in our communities while the larger reformed community moves in a different direction. [And we're not giving up on recoconciliation either!]
Now don’t get me wrong, when you find yourself sharing with a primarily white congregration, don’t hesitate to share from your heart about the lack of sensitivity to the needs of the marginalized and poor, this is critical to their discipleship and your calling. I’m sure we agree that the absence of the evangelical community from the Freedom movement and the prevention of men like Dr. King from attending evangelical seminaries is as much the cause of the theological crisis in our churches as anything else!
Toward your last point, I think there is a 3rd option that includes two parts: a) attending black evangelical churches pastored by the likes of a Tony Evans or Wayne Gordon [a white pastor!], where the teaching is not really Reformed but there is a priority given to scripture and discipleship…in this context you can teach and share with love and influence direction as the Lord grants; b) plant reformed churches…a great option. Men like CJ Mahaney and Sovereign Grace Ministries can help in this regard…but then again, we need brothers to just launch bible studies in their homes and see what the Lord does!
Lastly, YOU are doing something about it…by calling us all to act, feeling the pain…and moving out!
Hey, I heard a whooping pastor years ago, a brother who is not Reformed, preach powerfully on Nehemiah’s reaction to the report from Jerusalem under the title: “Do you hurt for the work?” Brother, Lionel…you do! Keep sounding the call, and let us know how how we can help…
Darryl
1 Cor 15:58
I agree wholeheartedly brother and I appreciate the gracious comments as I attempt to work through such issues. I know many have been on the forefront of such movements and I am appreciatve of their work.
1. About the gradual change. I agree 100% we are becoming more complex and maybe it is the expouse to different cultures the move to suburbs, educational opportunities, and the migration of blacks from just the south to all over the U.S (did you know there were blacks in Montanna? LOL). Due to that we have in part become more diverse but I still see the majority of blacks fitting into my original assessment. BTW we can’t eat soul food as much due to our high cholesterol at 10!
2. There in lies the struggle brother. I wouldn’t walk into Tony Evans church if you paid me to. This brother has Eddie Long as the main note speaker at his conference and that crosses the line for most of us. Any shepherd that invites a wolf into the fold is automatically disqualified.
Also let me add how do yo do it? I am not talking about Reformed Theology but faithful theology. I don’t expect everyone to embrace the Doctrines of Grace or Redemptive Historic Hermenuetics or the like but I do expect for faithful exposition and true church membership and faithful discipleship. I don’t think I can or should compromise on these.
So my question is how did you do it? How do you sit in a church that isn’t faithful there because from my experience I haven’t seen it AT ALL! I don’t know of a black church (beside my own) that does such a thing and we could be a little better at it but I give my church 8.5 out of 9 on the 9 Marks. But because of the lack of tradition there is a bit of a chasm between us and the community. I like the old traditional baptist feel but I won’t compromise on what make a church a biblical church either. When you go to churches and Choir Members are wilding out, people who are shacking up are on the Usher Board, the pastor has been married a couple of times and the deacons run the church. I can’t bend on what I believe to be faithful ecclisiology and my experience has been just the opposite. Finally in my experience most churches like this are hostile to Reformed Theology which will make it more difficult especially if our conviction is teaching it.
Lionel,
I appreciate your candor in your post. I am out here in Conway, Ar. and I feel like the only brother who desires African American believers to catch hold of the truths of Scripture. For a year now, I have been laboring to get AA pastors to look at Scripture, missions(local and global) and simply have Biblical worldview. It has been extremely difficult. Many of the local AA churches are so entrenched with tradition, Scripture appears as a byword.
The most support we have found as we minister here has been from white brothers with a love for the doctrines of grace. In one basket this is great because we are not laboring alone. In the other basket it is heartbreaking when I sit with brothers to speak about reform and I appear to them as foolish.
I believe we have to plant biblically faithful local churches. As much as I appreciate with great love Piper, Sproul and Mahaney, I would love to see more like me who love Christ and declare His glory. If you got a book or something, self-publish get it out there. That is my plan.
God has called us by His saving grace and ordained for us to walk in great things that would bring glory to His name and increase our joy in Him.
So lets march on!!
Great post Lionel, very insightful, man, you hit it on the head.
Hello Berean,
I am trying to make it to LR to kick it with some family members. Maybe we can exchange numbers and meet halfway when I am there.
Pastor Love I am trying to make it to the conference (if my money is right). Let me know if it is still on and if I can post it. I don’t know if it open to all but I think it would be lovely. I won’t be able to make the Miami conference and I can talk about that one later. Thanks.
Brother Lionel,
I was in Helena, Montana back in February and was -5 degrees in the AM! Not too many of us want to deal with that!!
I feel you on the Tony Evans comment…I was giving him the benefit of the doubt as about 10 years ago he was a more solidly evangelical, Moody Bible Institute type. He is hanging out a bit more with the penta-hype brothers these days, though I did not know he had brought Eddie Long in the house…
Endure!
Lionel, you know how we are exhorted to help each other with our burdens? I can’t say I struggle with this problem but I do hear the frustration in the burden you are dealing with and that burdens me too, brother. All I can say is I will be praying that God’s will be done in this matter. If He has a brother “waiting in the wings” to raise up a church that would be suitable for your family OR that He would give YOU the faith, courage, wisdom and grace to possibly venture out into “the great unknown” and start this type of community on your own. Naturally it would be easier for us to find a community that already exists but some are called to be planters. I don’t know but it seems that you could be suitable for that. I’m not saying that it has to be a church plant with the Good and Honorable Reverend Lionel…it could just simply start with a simple stated purpose of trying to start a Bible study in Reformed doctrines geared towards the AA community. Of course, even though it would be geared towards the AA community, if God sends a wonderful rainbow coalition your way that would be great too!!! Right? I would be interested in hearing other people’s opinion about you starting something like this. Other’s know you better but it sounds that God has given you the desire and the tools now you just have to step out in faith that God will raise people up to support you and grow a community of Reformed faithful in your area. BTW, what’s up with Dallas? Seems like every mega church or looney toon preacher with whack theology congregate in Dallas/Ft. Worth! Sounds like they could use some good ‘ol reformed preaching down there!!! Take it to ‘em, brother!!!
i came across this blog on my google alert for reformed theology. i’m a white brother who just moved back to kansas from san diego, cali. i’m in a rural area helping on a family farm and starting a biodiesel plant. i have always felt that rural america and urban america have been both overlooked. in college i found i had more in common with the fellas from urban america then those from suburbia. life is harder in the urban and rural areas, and both places lack solid reformed churches.
even though our backgrounds are very different i share your heart to see solid reformed churches in areas where they are not.
i appreciate your heart for the black community to embrace the revolutionary teaching of reformed theology. i’ll pray that God would establish these churches in both our communities for His glory and our peoples good!
Hey Lionel,
You sound like a religious elitist. It almost seems that you have been ministered by those whom feel they (whites) do it right and we (blacks) do it wrong. Why? How? Who determines which churches are right, wrong, good or bad? As I read your posts, I can easily conclude that you favor white pastors over black pastors. Do you not like the style and excitement within the black church? I find Creflo, T.D, Eddie, and Farrakhan to be extraordinary leaders. As I read your summarized biography, I noticed that you completely ignored your stages of psychological/cognitive development during your religious quests. At a time of your life when you had developed a new level of maturity, you were finally able to understand and better appreciate the teachings that were most comforting to you at that time.
As I drive through Benton Harbor on Sunday mornings, I see people going to church with light in their eyes and smiles on their faces… in force. Those whom I talk with feel that the gospel that they receive fulfills them tremendously. We have some great pastors back home. We have pastors that are in touch with the everyday struggles of poverty and despair that exist throughout the community. When they (the congregation) hear the words of their pastor, they are filled with a happiness that causes some to cry and others to shout. Even as a Non-Christian I find this beautiful.
Unlike you, I look for what is right within these people and their churches. Sure these pastors (ie, men and women) have issues just like the rest of the human race, but we need to let those issues rest between them and the Creator. You are blessed with an educated mind that allows you to take your understanding to different levels (as you stated). However, you don’t have to be educated in order to worship God or have a relationship with God. NOTE: There is no correct way… just different ways. Jeremiah Wright said it best, “Different does not mean deficient.” I encourage you to start looking for what is GOOD with these churches and these people. What would Horus, Mithra, Krishna, Attis and Jesus do?
Chuck you said:
“I find Creflo, T.D, Eddie, and Farrakhan to be extraordinary leaders. As I read your summarized biography, I noticed that you completely ignored your stages of psychological/cognitive development during your religious quests. At a time of your life when you had developed a new level of maturity, you were finally able to understand and better appreciate the teachings that were most comfortinng to you at that time.”
Farrakahn is not a Christian and I question the other two greatly. I don’t appreciate their teachings Chuck because they are damning teachings. I do believe there is a bit of truth in many religions the problem is that they don’t reconcile man to God.
You see brother people can have smiles on their faces, money in their pocket, beautiful famillies and great jobs and promising careers. The problem is that their sins have not been atoned for just as yours are not atoned for. There is a great epidimic called Sin inherited from our Father Adam in which we will stand before God to be held accountable. If we are found naked we will spend eternity away from a Graceful, Loving, Righteous God. However, if we are clothed with the righteousness of Christ then we will hear “well done” and “enter into the joy of your MASTER”.
So any religion apart from historic Christianity IS DEFICIENT. And just as a man dying of thirst is handed a gallaon of water with 5 tablespoons of Rat Poison in it this is the same false gospel and false hope given by Wright, Jakes, Dollar and Farrakahn (and maybe Eddie). So no I don’t respect their teachings though I respect them as man.
Finally I am not coming from a pious perspective here. You must not read what you want to in the blog. Follow the flow of the convo. As I stated I agree that you don’t have to educated and that was what I was saying along. However if you don’t know the Gospel you have no hope regardless of your sincerity.
Now here are a list of pastors who are black just in case you think I am ignoring your sly statement:
Reddit Andrews
Ken Jones
Dhati Lewis
Calvin Clark
Eric Mason
William Branch II
Lance Lewis
Sherad Burns
Thabit Abiweyne (spelling)
Anthony Carter
Paul Sheppard
Rick Amstrong
Pastor Irwyn
Pastor Williamson
…… The list goes on and on. So you must misunderstood my charge homie. Man up read it again and lets dialouge. But specifically you must find a way to atone for your sins or you will perish my friend. Love you and thanks for keeping it real with your old friend.
Well, I came from an African Pentecostal background to Reformed theology, and I know that my dad would rather have a millstone hung around his neck that listen to ‘dead, lifeless theology’. For some in the Black community, living heresy would make more sense than cold orthodoxy - which I cannot either disagree or agree with it. CLEAR - heresy is wrong, but so is cold, lifeless religion - and to my family, as long as you’re ‘on fire’ like that heretic Todd Bentley down in Florida right now, you’re good to go.
I believe that in the Black community, be it in America or England, we need to present the timeless truths of God’s Word in a way which our people will understand, in a way they can relate to without us selling out on the message.
Lionel,
Let me first apologize and say oops for not reading thoroughly (I’m working the Grave shift). Yet and still, as I re-read the post, it is evident that you are very much out of touch with your own community. This happens… and there is nothing wrong with this. However, you keep giving out this vibe that so many others are wrong about a faith (BELIEF). Yet, you have no proof. You have somehow tapped into the hearts and minds of the people that go to other churches… how else could you analogize that these people may be drinking rat poisoned H20? Yes, you can quote some scriptures to back your claim… but so can the others.
That whole atone for your sins thing is suspect… Which ones should I atone for pass-present-future? What makes you think you have atoned for yours? No one can atone for their sins because sin is perpetual. Show me a man/woman without sin…go ahead I’ll wait…………………………………………!
“Hope is faith, hold its hand out in the dark” At least these men are giving hope. You’re trying to take it away and replace it with the hope that YOU understand to be true. Ever thought that maybe your pastor is giving false gospel and false hope… you can’t prove that he is not. This is because Faith is a BELIEF… not Fact.
You pass judgment (whether you admit this or not) too much, still. You are so powerful, that you know who has and who hasn’t atoned for their sins…WOW. Should they pray to Jesus… or Lionel? Some things should be left for the Creator. Do you not have faith that God can intervene with these “Lost” soul, just as God intervened with you… Hmmm…. Come wit it!
Chuck you said:
“That whole atone for your sins thing is suspect… Which ones should I atone for pass-present-future? What makes you think you have atoned for yours? No one can atone for their sins because sin is perpetual. Show me a man/woman without sin…go ahead I’ll wait……………………..”
I am glad you ask. All of your sins should be atoned for. And Christ is the only one who can. Start with John 3:16-18 then follow it up with Romans 3:21-25. I think that should be a start. You are correct in your assessment that no one can atone for “their sins” but someone has atoned for SIN and that is the God-Man Christ Jesus.
I have the right to pass judgment brother just not an unbiblical judgment. Show me where I have done this and I will repent.
Finally a false hope is no hope at all. What if a Doctor knew a patient was dying tomorrow and the doctor told the patient. No, everything is fine just come back next week and see me. Now did he give hope? Yes! But a false hope. Any hope apart from Christ is a LIE it isn’t hope and it isn’t loving. Your temporal needs are important but Christ atoned for eternal needs. Once again our problem isn’t poverty, lack of education and lack of health care, our number one problem is that we have SINNED against a Holy God and the only way of escape from the wrath to come (2 Thessolonians 1) is through Christ. So that is how your SIN is atoned for.
Hey brother Scott you said:
“BTW, what’s up with Dallas? Seems like every mega church or looney toon preacher with whack theology congregate in Dallas/Ft. Worth! Sounds like they could use some good ‘ol reformed preaching down there!!! Take it to ‘em, brother!!!”
Bro not only are the Megas here their offspring are also. The problem is those who were once conservative now kick it with the unfaithful and host conferences with one another. So it seems like the prosperity preachers are winning here.
Also I would rather have a diverse church than a none diverse one, but that can only happen with mutual submission
Scott you said:
“even though our backgrounds are very different i share your heart to see solid reformed churches in areas where they are not.
i appreciate your heart for the black community to embrace the revolutionary teaching of reformed theology. i’ll pray that God would establish these churches in both our communities for His glory and our peoples good!”
Man I feel you. My town is probably more rural than it is urban it is kind of influenced by Chicago and Detroit so as those cities move it effects my hometown. Maybe I can move back sooner or later but don’t know. Dallas is so much worse but at least here there is economic hope around the corner (downtown corporate) in Benton Harbor in the pulling out of most of the factories it leaves employment options few to none.
So I agree it is small cities, and crime/drug/poverty infested areas where there is a lack of solid biblical teaching (not just a lack of Reformed because I would take a solid SBC that was Arminian as long as the Gospel wasn’t comprised). Much love out there on the farm bro. God bless, you blogging?
Doug,
How is England brother? Why don’t yall do something about the Euro out there man it is killing our Economy. To exchange rate is driving our prices up LOL!!!!
On the real bro, I agree but it depends on what you mean by lifeless. If it is void of estatic behavior then I wouldn’t call that lifeless. A lot of blacks believe if it more spiritual to have emotions, feelings, warm fuzzies, lively choirs and keyboard players while at the same time the message being void of anything that even resembles the Gospel. The Gospel is what brings life not music and emotions. But I also don’t want to be at a local gathering where no one is excited about the finish work of Christ either.
Hello my friend. I read this post and was touched by the rare find that is so uncommon in the “white” church today. What is this you may ask? Well, it’s adherents to the Reformed perspective by those who would be considered “Black” or “African-American.” I agree, there is a lack, a serious one. I’ve also glanced over the comments and have seen a fruitful response and a significant desire to at least understand this dilemma.
I wish I could explain to you the Metro-Detroit area. I wish I could tell you how that not even the white-churches are making an effort to serve Christ. Never the less, this issue really gets pushed to the back burner on the sole count that a majority of the whites in this region would rather navigate around Downtown Detroit then accidentally get lost and have to find their way out of a legitimate war zone. Minister the Gospel? Out of the question some would say. Dare I say most? The flesh would like to, but I shall not, it would be presumptuous.
I digress, the prosperity, word-of-faith, and liberation theology that soaks the pews and pulpits of the metro area is an intimidating foe. It also provides a dedicated army of adherents to apostatized, feel-good, better life gospels that pollute the minds of desperate congregants who wish to serve Christ and wind up serving themselves.
Your comment “I just think they have no real conviction to minister to those people” strikes to the core of my inner man. It also pricks the heart to the point of the Spirits continued conviction growing greater. I grow short in patience with the lack that is in Metro-Detroit. But I also don’t agree with this statement of yours. I am white. I adhere to the affirmations of the Reformation, and I desire to reach these lost souls regardless of ethnic affiliation. Skin-tone aside, none of them who are lost will know Christ without the preaching of the Gospel and His redeeming grace. This white man wishes to cross a boundary that his skin-tone often makes higher before his mouth even begins to speak the words of life. This white man desires to see the young black youth of this nation swept up and snatched from the death-grip of an insidious, licentious, evil hip-hop culture. This white man is hopelessly searching for what seems to be NO integrated church that shares a multicultural demographic and an earnest love to seek, serve, and glorify Christ.
I desire to preach Christ crucified. No other. The target is not distinguished by the desire of those who are white, brown, yellow, red, or green. Its established by the Great Commission our Lord has given us. All nations, All tongues, and All peoples.
In attendance at T4G as well, I too noticed the lack of black participants. But I did see some, and even personally knew a few. My dear brother from CA, whose Blog http://www.abiding-in-grace.blogspot.com/ is that of a black, reformed man. I do not believe it’s a matter of marketing, I believe it’s a matter of product. The product being the Gospel and Truth does not appeal to the masses that are swept up under false teaching and word-of-faith doctrine. This is a pandemic that is not completely isolated to a specific ethnic group, but it definitely has a lethal grip on one in particular. We cannot avoid this paradigm, but we can seek to address it.
Educate them, tell them, and they will see their error. Most whites I know, are unaware this issue even exists. Its based mostly on ignorance, not sloth. Ask any white man what it means to be “white” and he’ll give you an answer that sounds like he sees you as attacking “his people” or “labeling” his skin tone. Ask a “black” the same question and you’ll get an entirely different answer. Most whites don’t even know they benefit from the “anglo-conformitive norm” and enjoy “white-privilege.”
That is all for now. Hope to hear from you soon.
Peace!
“…Finally a false hope is no hope at all. What if a Doctor knew a patient was dying tomorrow and the doctor told the patient. No, everything is fine just come back next week and see me. Now did he give hope? Yes! But a false hope…”
I would normally interpret this as an act of providing comfort, but I know where you are coming from. Therefor, let’s take another look at this senario. What if a Doctor thought a patient was going to be alright and the doctor told the patient everything is fine just come back next week and see me. Now did he give hope? Yes! But was it a false hope…. No! He only acted or spoke according to what he believed. (Faith is belief, remember)
Those Preachers that I spoke up for believe that what they say is in accordance with the word of God. I really do like these preachers because the hope and leadership that they provide, is based on the here and now, as oppose to waiting for death to bring enjoyment. A lot of Christians are really trying to walk in the footsteps of Jesus… but this is impossible, since there is a large chunk of Jesus’s life that is undocumented. (Not exactly, but the scriptures that somewhat documented the the missing Jesus years were omitted from the bible because they portrayed Jesus as a sinner.) So with that in mind, we can’t really say that Jesus was indeed without sin. Also, I’m sure I read somewhere in the Bible that Jesus said that he was not God.
Lionel,
We’re British - we wouldn’t use the Euro if they paid us - since we didn’t start it LOL.
On the real, you’re definitely right - cold orthodoxy is wrong, but among my community [Africans], it is the NORM that good preachers scream, shout and exert themselves really weirdly. In fact, the denomination I grew up in was different in that [as a whole], they were pretty much the Biblicists, though my dad couldn’t bear it and went off to start his own church because they were trying to be so Biblical.
They didn’t scream, shout or do a lot of Pentecostal-like stuff. The General Superintendent of the denomination was quite a humble man [even had dinner with him once] who always harshly criticized his peers and the pastors under him [including my Dad on a very public occasion] for not bring Biblical and living in constant holiness. True - he was a Pentecostal, true - he sometimes had a WoF twist when he spoke on prosperity and blessing [he never did endorse their Theology proper or Christology though] and true - he did believe in the second work of grace, tongues miracles, etc. but one thing most Africans know him for is that all he does is preach three-point sermons like a Baptist…and he was definitely excited about the work of the Lord Jesus, and encouraged us to do so.
There’s a lesson I think to be learnt from that among my people that one can be eager for the things of God and still not be extremely heretical in the process
Chuck you said:
” So with that in mind, we can’t really say that Jesus was indeed without sin. Also, I’m sure I read somewhere in the Bible that Jesus said that he was not God”
Actually 2 Corinthians 5:21 says:
“21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.”
and John 20 says:
“26 Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” 28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
Read verse 28 very clearly. Either Thomas is an idol worshiper and Jesus should have been stoned (even though He was in a glorified state so I don’t hink it would have done much to Him). Thomas says “my Lord and My God” and what was Jesus’ response? “You believe because you see” He didn’t say “no Thomas you got it wrong” He affirms Thomas’ worship.
Once again Chuck I don’t want to give hope for hopes sake. It would be wrong for me to give a false hope regardless of my sincerity and conviction of that hope. So I understand what you are saying but what these men teach isn’t biblical.
Chuck there is only one hope to receive grace instead of wrath is Christ the Sin bearer
Hey Pastor James you said:
“Your comment “I just think they have no real conviction to minister to those people” strikes to the core of my inner man. It also pricks the heart to the point of the Spirits continued conviction growing greater. I grow short in patience with the lack that is in Metro-Detroit. But I also don’t agree with this statement of yours. I am white. I adhere to the affirmations of the Reformation, and I desire to reach these lost souls regardless of ethnic affiliation. Skin-tone aside, none of them who are lost will know Christ without the preaching of the Gospel and His redeeming grace. This white man wishes to cross a boundary that his skin-tone often makes higher before his mouth even begins to speak the words of life. This white man desires to see the young black youth of this nation swept up and snatched from the death-grip of an insidious, licentious, evil hip-hop culture. This white man is hopelessly searching for what seems to be NO integrated church that shares a multicultural demographic and an earnest love to seek, serve, and glorify Christ.”
I am speaking as whole and not in parts. What I mean is that if we talk about tongues as a evidence of the Holy Spirit I can say as a whole this our Pentacostal brothers. Now some Pentecostals will stand up and say “not so you are wrongly including us in this group”. I will say get me 1000 Pentecostal churches and lets ask them this question at least 90% will agree with this statement while the other 10% wont.
So I am saying this out of evidence, though it may be some and quite a few some, the majority ignore the slums. We can see by going on the websites of these major Reformed camps and see where they are planting churches. 99% of the plants are in thriving economic areas and their surrounding suburbs. No one is planting on farmland as Scott says and no one is planting in small poverty and crime infested areas like Benton Harbor MI where I am from.
The same goes for The City (which is what we call Detroit in Benton Harbor). I was there about a year or so ago for a wedding of my childhood friend and as I walked the streets I saw no solid churches in the area I saw very little and then I asked my friend about it and the thriving churches rather black or white runs to the suburbs in order to attract those who can “pay” for the services.
Let me finish by saying thank you for what you do and the sacrifices you have made. Regardless of suburbs or the impoverished areas we need to here “Christ and Him crucified” as you so clearly stated and I am thankful that you have followed the Great Commission or our Lord. Please continue to keep it up we need more brothers like you thanks again.
My Bad Doug you are on the Pound right? Well you still ain’t helping us here. I appreciate your commments and I want to ensure you that I am not speaking of all because there is nothing wrong with estatic worship but we must also have that balanced with sound thelogical truth. We cant compromise the word and call it church as I see many do.
When I finish my A-Level in Economics [which will be a miracle LOL], I promise to help out the brothers in the States LOL!
I full agree with you that ecstatic worship isn’t particularly wrong, provided you stay 110% Biblical. The example of the late Elder Ward springs to mind…
Don’t know of how much relevance/benefit this would be to things, but there’s some teachings on the issue of race which I remember hearing awhile ago that were pretty SPOT-ON—paticularly, the image portrayed by 35 passages in the Bible on the issue of Race and how the MAJORITY were to treat those who’re in the MINORITY. If anyone’s interested, one can listen to it here:
http://www.libertychurch.org/streams/audio/racial/racial_03.mp3
This one should be of benefit as well, as it deals thoughtfully with the issue of CONTEXUALIZATION and the GOSPEL and the various ways in which Christian Ministries seek to do so (though originally, the format was done for those within the MUSLIM world—but the principles seem valuable nonetheless):
pdf and http://theresurgence.com/gregg_allison_2006-11-17_an_evaluation_of_emerging_churches_on_the_basis_of_the_contextualization_spectrum
Probably would go a long way for many blacks being presented with Reformed Theology if the sins that the Reformers made were called out as it was—-sin……. not moral slip ups, honest mistakes, or anything else that’d present the things they did in a light manner while the sins of other camps are magnified.
My dear brother I thought I was the only person feeling like this. I tried to describe in a blog but I could not articulate as well as you did. This is massive and really needs to be address. Churches in our neighborhoods are dyinh while we get reformed the more. I am moving back to the city man because this is a serious problem. We need a plan of action that is strategically placed and operational. I am going to write a respose of action on my blog to this. Once again you have rocked my dome.
constant reformation