I have had an interesting Sunday to say the least. I finally got to visit of a church of a gentleman I have talked to on the phone and blogged with quite frequently. I have been trying to get there for the last 6 months and due to my beautiful wife and son (the youngest) visiting her mom in Austin, I had the privilege to check out Provide Church in Garland Texas. I thoroughly enjoyed the Sermon and the people are beautiful. Pastor Gunny preached on sin from Jeremiah 17 and it was very convicting but with any great Pastor the redemptive indicatives were the foundation and thus the appeal to the Holy Spirit as believers and the cross for the non-believers were the foundation from which Pastor Gunny spoke. Afterwards He invited me to dinner with his lovely family and I got to meet his wife and children and I enjoyed them dearly. And for those who don’t believe that Calvinist picks up the tab, Mr. Gunny was more than welcomed to cover the tab. Thanks for a beautiful Lords Day Pastor Gunny.
The other part of my Sunday was entrenched in an heated debate with Gabriel and Tyris about a zero tolerance on abortion. Thus the premise of the post. Now I am 0-3 because Gunny also sided with these brothers on this very sensitive topic. I am not going to talk much about the objections. I will allow Tyris, Pastor Gunny and Gabriel build their case in which if after the discussion the consensus is I am wrong, I will have to submit to this and if any of these scenarios below arise I will have to trust in the sovereign God. Now each of these are hypothetical and are extreme for the sake of the discussion. I will defend my position afterward, but as for now if any of these scenarios were to arise in my own life, I believe that an abortion would not be a sin. I am still struggling through this but I am being honest. So here we go
Scenario #1
My wife is raped and don’t want to carry the child
Scenario #2
My daughter is raped and doesn’t feel that she can endure the emotional, spiritual and psychological pain
Scenario #3
My daughter is raped by her brother and becomes pregnant by him.
Scenario #4
You and your wife find out that you are pregnant and upon close examination of the sonogram you find out that the baby will definitely cause the death of your wife and that her life and the life of the baby are in danger. You go to 10 other doctors to get clarification and to ensure that this isn’t a mistake and upon that you find out that the mortality rate is 100% so far.
Once again the third one may be an extreme but I am pretty sure this has happened before there is a documented case of this in scripture but thankfully no child was created from this horrific crime. I am not making light of this for mere discussion, but as one who has a desire in the future to assist in the shepherding of God flock, if these scenarios were to arise and someone is sitting in front of me with their family and feels that abortion is the greater good I would struggle greatly to call their decision sin. Ultimately this is what this is about. Either they have a moral obligation to go full term and if they do abortion is sin, or they have the liberty under such extreme circumstances to terminate (abort/take the life of) the baby for the greater good of the mother.
I have one request that I really ask that you abide by which is:
* Please don’t use the argument that well what about the woman got pregnant from being sexually immoral and wants to abort because of the difficulties the child bring or that the baby would be deformed because that isn’t the argument I want to objectively deal with the scenarios on hand because this is a true struggle for me if I am wrong.
Finally I want anyone reading this to understand that if you have participated in such an act of abortion not limited to the scenarios above, that Christ death is sufficient for all sin to those who turn to Him in repentance. We all sin and thus all our guilty, we all fail to trust God thus we turn to our own feeble and and fleshly decisions. We dig our own cisterns instead of turning to the water that brings life everlasting. So as Christ forgave all who has found grace through faith there is still room at the cross for all who will repent and believe.
I can understand your point on this, and my husband said the same thing–if I were raped and got pregnant, he’d want me to abort. My first thought was, “But it would still be *my* child.” I don’t think I could, because it would feel like murder to me. Could I give it up for adoption, though? Would it be fair to ask my husband to help me raise a child that wasn’t his? I hope and pray I never have to answer these questions.
As far as your exceptions #1-3, I would direct your attention to this document (http://www.voteyesforlife.com/docs/Task_Force_Report.pdf). While the whole thing is interesting, it covers the specifics of rape and incest (p. 32). First, it says that less than 0.1% of all rapes cause pregnancy; second, about 97% of babies conceived in incestuous relationships are perfectly normal. It even has a case that mirrors your #3–a girl raped by her brother and impregnated, and she carried her baby to term.
On to exception #4–this also is rare, and I know of no pregnancy-caused diseases that would be life-threatening to the mother before the baby was viable (with the possible exception of ectopic pregnancy). I have heard of numerous women who were discovered to have cancer, and were counseled to abort so that they could start aggressive chemotherapy, but the women refused–choosing death or the higher risk/likelihood of death for themselves, to allow their babies a chance at life. Typically, they’ll carry the baby until around 28-30 weeks, and then have a C-section and start chemotherapy. Sometimes the women have died; sometimes they lived.
Speaking of babies conceived by rape specifically, here is the question that is foremost in my mind–why should the babies get the death penalty for the crime of their fathers?
Kathy
katsyfga.wordpress.com
Hey Kathy,
You last paragraph is the question both Gabriel and Tyris both raised. Does a sin justify the termination which they deemed sinful. An innoncent child bears the wrath of the one who should love them the most (besides God) thus they say it is wrong. I am considering this argument.
Lionel, what is is with you and posting difficult questions, lol.
Let me take a quick stab at this.
In scenarios 1-3 I don’t really think anything has changed from normal pro-life logic. The issue still boils down to the woman’s comfort (by comfort I don’t mean to demean or make light of the suffering of the woman in these hypothetical situations) vs. the life of the child. In these cases, their is certainly more reason to feel sympathy for the woman since she was forced into this situation. However can we really argue that less emotional and psychological trauma for the woman is worth taking someone else’s life? Furthermore, I think you might be overlooking the documented emotional trauma of abortion and the already sustained trauma of rape. Is it really that much more trauma to carry the baby to full term and give it up for adoption than it is to abort the baby after suffering the rape? I’m not sure. Either way I would still contend that an improved quality of life (less emotional trauma) is not adequate reason to take another life.
Scenario 4 is slightly different in my mind. I think there might be some room for discussion because it is a matter of weighing two lives, not one life versus one quality of life.
Righter believes Billy’s assertion in regards to scenarios 1 and 2 as it basically comes down to whether it is more important to abort the child or more important to consider the woman’s emotional trauma that has been caused by the rape.
Scenario 4 is the easiest for me because it deals with a situation that is life threatening. Thus, out of all the scenarios that have been outlined, I am inclined to say that this is the only situation that merits abortion.
Brother Lionel,
And this is where I wish we took things to a telephone conference like it is on Stand-Up Ministries (Lol)….but seriously, I’m hanging back for now/listening……and wanted to add that on the third scenario may not be as extreme as people make it out to be, as it seems in the same category and is no more different than common INCEST—clearly condemned in the Scriptures (Leviticus 18:6-18, Leviticus 20:11-12, Leviticus 20:17-19, Deuteronomy 22:30, Deuteronomy 22:30, Deuteronomy 27:20-23, Ezekiel 22:11, I Corinthians 5:1)…..and which happens frequently/more often in our society than most realize and also may not take the form of a brother impregnating his sister but in differing forms like a father impregnating his daughter or his nieces (Earl Paulk comes to mind, though his may be different).
From Lot and his daughters being impregnated (though Lot was unaware of it) came the nations of Moab/Ammon, Israel’s longstanding enemies. Moab and Ammon. While God dealt kindly with these nations because of their relationship to Abraham (cf. Deuteronomy 2:19), they were a continual hindrance to the godly conduct of the Israelite….and the great-grandmother of David–RUTH–was from Moab and an ancestor of Jesus….
though I wonder how she/her mother would’ve felt knowing that their ancestry/existence was from a vile incestual relationship
Thought you’d be interested in checking this out, for If one were to do a study on the MANY CULTS/SECTS done in the name of Christianity, you’ll find more stories of SCENARIO # 3 found here than anywhere else probably. Check out this one group called “The Family”:
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/f/f38.html
What Berg’s followers did was found communes (called “colonies”), rejected mainstream denominationlism, and led a lifestyle which they believed emulated that of early Christians.
To show God’s love, members would offer sex as a way of evangelizing people……& the Family’s history states that, based on his reading of Scripture, “Father David arrived at the rather shocking conclusion that Christians were therefore free through God’s grace to go to great lengths to show the Love of God to others, even as far as meeting their sexual needs.”
This later led to allegations of child abuse and prostitution in at least a half-dozen countries. Many former members of the group have described a lifestyle that included orgies involving adults and young children, as well as directed sex between teenagers….and there had been seven suicides of members and former members in the last 30 years. Former members place the number at many SUICIDE cases from former members who couldn’t deal with the shame.
The children/girls who were involved in this cult must’ve dealt with TREMENDOUS GUILT and shame due to their being taken advantage of…..and yet we understand that assisted SUICIDE is a sin and even with the shame former members must’ve dealt with, it would be a sin for me to help in or condone the decision to kill themselves. Their shame is no more a good enough reason to kill themselves than the reasons given for EUTHENASIA/KILLING FAMILY MEMBERS IN PAIN……and I wouldn’t assist someone in killing themselves because the shame they may deal with is causing them to go crazy.
From there, however, I still wonder why it seems that killing a baby in the womb of a mother due to that child being born in incest/rape and the pyschological trauma that can come from it is different than assisting someone killing themselves because of a shameful action.
Hope that makes sense what I was trying to say
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_International
If you wouldn’t assists someone killing themselves in order to deal with the shame of a former sexual abuse done by another and the consequences they didn’t ask for, then one must wonder how it’d be different in the raped woman scenario where you’re comforting her/helping her not to deal with the craziness and taking the life of another (baby) who may aid in her further losing her sanity and possibly taking her life—-especially when it seems that the party being taken out hasn’t done anything.
And if ANYone’s interested, I encourage everyone to consider these two links, as they do MUCH ministry regarding abortions/Biblical reasons to reconsider the subject when counseling:
http://www.citizenlink.org/pdfs/fosi/bioethics/sanctity_of_human_life.pdf
http://search.boundless.org/search?q=Abortion&site=boundless_org&entqr=0&sort=date%3AD%3AL%3Ad1&output=xml_no_dtd&client=boundless_org&filter=0&ud=1&oe=UTF-8&ie=UTF-8&proxystylesheet=boundless_org
Lionel, you know I love you, right? But…
1. What can be gained by arguing about this? After we get this settled, can we figure out how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
2. In light of these unknowable hypotheticals, what DO we know to be true? We know that human life is valuable because we are made in God’s image (Gen 1). We know that Christians are called to a lifestyle of radical, counter-cultural love, forgiveness and sacrifice — all of which are enabled not by our own will by Christ’s perfect righteousness given to us through faith. We know that we have the Holy Spirit, the perfect Word of God, the Church, and a mind that’s being sanctified to guide us as we make all sorts of difficult decisions. We know that Jesus promised to be with us always, even to the end of the age. We know that the love of Christ works itself out as we share the Gospel with both believing and unbelieving women and families who find themselves in complex, even unthinkable circumstances. We know that God’s will is accomplished, and that the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth. Right?
My bad, Brah, as I just noticed you said this:
(Brother Lionel): “I will allow Tyris, Pastor Gunny and Gabriel build their case in which if after the discussion the consensus is I am wrong, I will have to submit to this and if any of these scenarios below arise I will have to trust in the sovereign God.”
Again, my bad Brah for jumpn’n the gun a bit
…..I’ll wait. Though to sis Laura, I’ll think it should be said there’s MUCH to gain out of this discussion. Perhaps a TIT-FOR-TAT/foolish and unprofitable argument where folks are quarreling over trival issues or only trying to have the last word (II Timothy 2:14, etc) would be one thing (Proverbs 13:18)…..
but honest discussion that leads to wisdom is another. IMHO, the issue is the latter and VERY IMPORTANT, as it touches on the very foundations of what we consider to be the Sancity of Life, Issues of what CHRISTIAN LIBERTY REALLY MEANS, and understanding what the Soveriengty of God looks like……and personally, I think the issue is VERY OBJECTIVELY CLEAR in Scripture.
Thank you for the willingness to tread on SOME SENSITIVE GROUND, for honestly it seems many discussions on theology are focused on things soley dealing with CORRECTING FALSE DOCTRINE/Similar to many of the other posts you’ve brought up before with being like PHARISEES wanting to point out all the wrong doctrinal points in others like it’s a SPORT.
Rarely, though, will see in many circles discussions like this where theology actually impacts CHRISTIAN LIVING/HIT HOME on SENSITIVE ISSUES….and I thank you much for it.
In this matter I speak as a man – maybe not as the Lord would speak.
If you rape my wife, your life is forfeit. And so is any life that you create in the process…
Hey Laura you said:
“. What can be gained by arguing about this? After we get this settled, can we figure out how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?”
Read the post for me again Sis. There is no argument (other than Gabriel and myself). The reason for the post is found here when I said:
“I am not making light of this for mere discussion, but as one who has a desire in the future to assist in the shepherding of God flock, if these scenarios were to arise and someone is sitting in front of me with their family and feels that abortion is the greater good I would struggle greatly to call their decision sin. Ultimately this is what this is about. Either they have a moral obligation to go full term and if they do abortion is sin, or they have the liberty under such extreme circumstances to terminate (abort/take the life of) the baby for the greater good of the mother. ”
So this isn’t for the sake of arguing or mere discussion but a willingness to say maybe I am wrong about this and as I have had some people that I trust in the blogosphere tell me they thought I was wrong for my stance thus I am putting it out there. So this isn’t for the sake of arguing it is a genuine appeal to work through something that if it ever occurred personally or if I ever had to counsel someone on it that I am being faithful to my King.
Right, but I don’t think you have to deal in far-fetched hypothetical situations in order to figure out if what you believe is right, wrong, fair, unfair, or whatever. I think there are some things that are unknowable. If you ever came across a strange circumstance like this (and I pray you never do!!), all the things I said above would be in effect — you have the word, the Spirit, the church, a mind that’s being sanctified, the very presence of Christ to guide your decisions.
I don’t necessarily think that we take full advantage of those resources when we’re dealing with a situation that most likely will never happen — that we tend to let our emotions and imaginations rule when dealing with these kinds of things, when we don’t really have a dog in the fight, so to speak. I can’t tell you what I’d do in those situations because I’m not in them. I know what is true about human life and about my standing before the Lord and his covenant with me and his call on my life and I know that he would be faithful to guide me. I don’t know how I would counsel someone in that situation — I would probably tell them what I told you above, and pray and trust that the Lord would guide them to make the right choice, which only he can do. I’m not the Holy Spirit, and I can’t convict someone’s heart of sin. I can only tell them what’s true — tell them the Gospel.
I would also urge you to remember that, in all those situations and every other situation, God still moves and works and does miracles. I recently came across a blog by a family who were told that their second son would almost certainly die in utero, and that, if by some bizarre chance he did not, he would absolutely, positively die within hours of his birth. Of course the doctors urged this woman to consider an abortion, but the parents refused, even as they grieved and planned a funeral for their still-unborn child.
He is now a few weeks old. He is not expected (by the doctors or his parents) to live much longer, but they have learned the miracle-working power of Almighty God in a very real way through the course of this pregnancy and the birth of their son.
Righter wonders why there is such a thing called “counseling” in both the secular and spiritual arenas???
In the above scenario-which really doesn’t present a dilemma at all because the doctors stated the child would unquestionably die. Thus, there was no need for either the doctors or the parents to intervene by taking action to aid in the dying process (through abortion). Moreover, this just seems like a “Kervorkian” type of thing…
Based upon the available medical evidence that has not been presented (baby’s medical problem) and as such, is an “unknown”, it had been predetermined that death was inevitable. Thus, a conclusion that does not require an extensive amount of brain power can be easily reached.
I will say however that the doctors were wrong for suggesting this because of the fact that the child could not survive for an extended amount of time, either in the womb or out.
Thus, this scenario shows that meaningful discussion can still occur even when there are “unknowns”.
I guess it’s sorta kinda like Algebra…
Righter,
The typical reasoning goes like this–some women have health problems related to pregnancy or birth (usually mild and self-limiting), and doctors just feel like they’re speeding up the inevitable, and avoiding any potential health risks to the mom. Oh, and one euphemism for abortion of a baby with a fatal defect is “induced pre-term birth”. Labor is induced well before the baby would be naturally born (usually soon after the diagnosis, many times around 26-30 weeks) and baby is born alive to die in its mother’s arms. It might not be technically abortion in that the child is intentionally born alive, but it is a form of abortion in that the child is not intended to receive any life-saving or life-extending treatment at birth.
Plus, doctors tend to be of the opinion that it’s better for the mom to just get on with life, end the pregnancy, and begin the post-pregnancy healing phase, so they can try to conceive again. I’ve read a few stories from moms on this, and those that choose abortion or “pre-term induction” will say things like “I just couldn’t bear the thought of continuing the pregnancy knowing that my baby would die.” So they found it easier to kill their child, justifying their actions by saying death was inevitable anyway.
Yes, totally Kervorkian. Reprehensible in my opinion, too. It is still the taking of an innocent life, when it is God who should be in charge of deciding who should die and when (outside of capital punishment for crimes worthy of death). One of these women was a Christian who didn’t see a problem with it. But the Bible still remains true–God does not ask you to bear more than you are able. He either takes away the temptation to sin (to commit abortion) or gives you grace to bear it.
I’ve just recently read two stories (one perhaps the same one mentioned by Laura) in which the mothers chose life for their babies. One mother chose to find joy in every kick and other movement her baby made in the womb; chose to savor the life that was in her, for as long as she could.
Kathy
Hey Laura,
My discussion is only for the scenarios above. I have worked out all others as far as I know. If the baby would come out with deformities, extreme health complications or anything else that would jeopardize the “quality of life” that would not be grounds for an abortion. I am trying to figure out if there is any grounds under any circumstances and the above circumstances causes me to wrestle with the complex issue of abortion before I come to a complete conclusion. Once again it boils down to sin.
If under no circumstances abortion is allowed then it becomes sinful and a sin that I believe harms the body of Christ greatly. As a pastor if someone was to come to me and tell me they were going to pursue an abortion and after counseling and getting other women and elders invloved they still wanted to pursue such an action I think the only thing you are left to do is to bring forth Church Discipline. Just as if a man was going to leave his family for his secretary or vice versa. Thus that is why I am to this point. You can’t sweep it under the rug and you can’t say well “just sin we understand, we all sin right”.
Thus it is more complicated from a Shepherd’s perspective I believe. Maybe I am missing what you are saying but the matter of fact in tone is where I have the concern.
Righter you said:
“Righter wonders why there is such a thing called “counseling” in both the secular and spiritual arenas???”
One has the mind of God and the other the mind of this worlds system. One will tell you to do things that the scriptures forbid (spice up your sex life, don’t discipline your children) while one should have the bible as its foundation. Hope that helps.
Hi Kathy and thanks for sharing–:-)
I will admit that have not heard of the phrase “induced-pre term birth” before your post and I am disturbed by its implications.
I wholeheartedly agree that God has the right to determine when life begins and when it should end. Thus, man should have no say so in this one…
My late grandmother, who was fearful of doctors because of the times in which she lived, always said that doctors wanted to be God.
Looking at this, it makes me wonder…
I do however disagree with the death penalty stance that has been presented. And it’s not in a way to oppose the proponents and I am not one to speak out against it; I just personally couldn’t pull the lever or inject the chemicals into the IV.
But on the flip side-I have no problem with self defense “by any means necessary” lol
Maybe this is another good topic for discussion, “How far should Christians Go in the Name of Self Defense Before it Becomes Sinful”–:-)
Ahh, the dilemmas we mortals face!!
Also, the history of this country has shown that it (death penalty ) is adminstered unfairly. As such, I believe a system should be set in place to ensure that it is done in a just manner.
Good post…
No, b and r, it doesn’t help because secular counseling is not always a bad thing.. Moreover, not all spirtual counseling is good.
Thus, there is good and bad in spiritual and secular counseling.
I was really asking a rhetorical question because Laura’s post implied that discussions weren’t needed to help people with issues.
I was trying to say that if this is the case, why are there counselors, period?
Righter,
My stance on abortion and my stance on the death penalty both stem from the same position–human life is sacred and only God should decide when it should end. As the Jewish Law states it, if a human takes the life of another human, then the killer should forfeit his own. I wouldn’t want to be the one to pull the switch either, which is one reason why I think that God set up the Jewish Law to have the witnesses to the crime or the family of the victims to execute justice. If somebody molested or killed one of my kids, I’d have no problem whatsoever with casting the first stone, pulling the trigger, or any other means by which he’d die.
I agree that the death penalty has been applied unfairly–the rich get better lawyers than the poor, even if everything else in life were fair. And I’ve thought about this question before, but it seems to me that this is arguing that “two wrongs make a right.” It’s like the cop pulling my husband over for speeding, even though everybody else on the road was going just as fast. It wasn’t fair that just my husband got the ticket–everybody should have gotten one. But my husband was breaking the law, so his ticket was *just*, even if it wasn’t “fair.”
So, hypothetically speaking, let’s say that everybody in prison right now, or at least everybody on Death Row, is guilty. It is *just* for them to be there, even if it isn’t “fair” because others have gone free. May God have mercy on our nation for allowing the guilty to go unpunished, and for allowing murderers to live.
Kathy
Hey Righter,
“No, b and r, it doesn’t help because secular counseling is not always a bad thing.. Moreover, not all spirtual counseling is good.”
Agreed but……. We are talking about extremes always the middle. What I mean is this in the middle 99% of counseling will be sound and biblical and 99% of secular will be just that secular. Unless the person counseling you has a biblical worldview the advice could be detremental to your spiritual walk. If the person is a solid believer who specializes in counseling or has been trained (Elders) then the adivice should always (with rare ocassions of mistakes) be Christ centered.
So you are correct. Not all spiritual counseling is good, but that is only in the case when the person does not have a biblical worldview nor the wisdom to properly convey Christ’s will and not all secular counseling is bad but you most likely will come to a crossroad where the Bible says one thing and they say another thus infringing upon the will of God. So in exrteme cases (false teachers) you could be correct.
Hey again Kathy,
I see your point-I just don’t agree-:-)
But on the other hand-I don’t think that I disagree with your right to disagree, I just think murder is murder and who ever does it, is a murderer.
Thus, it appears as though we agree on “half” the issue-which is not “all” bad–:-)
In like manner, I am unable to draw an analogy between the death row scenario and the death penalty because maybe they should be on Death Row-(or any prison cell that can have any name attached to it), but no one should kill them.
If life is sacred and God is the Supreme Decision Maker, who might we “think” we are? If God wanted them dead, could He not decide that they should die?
Nonetheless, I do stand hand in hand with you on this one:
May God have mercy on our nation for allowing the guilty to go unpunished.
We just disagree on the types of punishment.
But I will add my own comment as well:
May God have mercy on our nation which has unjustly murdered countless individuals that were innocent, all in the name of “just-us”…
We’re on the same page b an r
I held off a bit to let the discussion develop and even now don’t want to bogart the mic, but …
To give credence to the validity of this post/discussion, I think it’s a good question to ask, “Is it ever okay to terminate the life of the unborn?”
This gets to the heart of “absolute truth” and moral relativism.
We often champion the abstract notion of absolute truth, but when asked to offer up an example, we will find a very short list because we have often bought into some relativism ourselves.
The beauty of asking about seemingly “extreme” cases is in the confidence of eliminating them as possibilities, we can be certain of our certainty.
Obviously, as Lionel indicated, I’m not undecided on the issue and have argued against the rape scenario in this way:
1 out of 10 rapes is reported.
1 out of 10 reported rapes goes to trial.
1 out of 10 tried rapists gets convicted.
(Figures vary, but these are ballpark numbers I’ve seen in various sources.)
The victim will live with a lifetime of emotional scarring and obstacles of trust, etc.
It’s inconceivable to think that the rapist has a .1% chance of be punished for his crime, the mother will suffer AND the baby is executed for the sin of the father.
I know we feel impotent to help the rape victim/mother and abortion seems to at least help her in that regard, but I would submit that she would only compound feelings of self-loathing and guilt post-rape.
P.S. It was great getting some chow with you yesterday, brother.
Righter agrees with Pastor Gunny’s assessment, although I was not given the opportunity to partake in the dinner–:-)
Lionel, I apologize unreservedly for any harshness in my tone, brother. Please forgive me. In forums like this I have a tendency to come across as unduly blunt when I mean to express my thoughts with clarity. I should take more care to avoid harshness in the future. Thanks.
I’m not sure how I implied that no discussion is needed, especially since I mentioned that one of the precious resources at our disposal in making difficult decisions is the body of Christ.
I do think that seeking counsel in difficult circumstances is essential. I don’t think that trying to examine extreme hypotheti