The above image isn’t to make you laugh and I am not making light of the gravity of suicide, the pain it causes others and the selfishness involved in such an act. I wanted to provide an image that wasn’t too dark but was also serious enough to make us ponder about this. I had a discussion with some co-workers both of who are Christian. We were discussing the suicide of a prominent community activist and his wife. It is very sad, the man was loved greatly by those in the African American community and had done everything from raise active voters to getting books in schools. So the brother was much loved and respected throughout the DFW area. I didn’t know him but the lives he touched while on earth seemed to have been blessed by his activism.
I as usual pushed the conversation towards the cross. My first question after listening was “is he a Christian”. My co-workers were unsure and I said I pray that he is. Well one of my co-workers said “well it doesn’t matter because he killed himself anyway”. My heart instantly fell to my feet, I was dizzy and anxious all at once. I quickly replied “well why is that” my coworker went on to imply that suicide was one of the unforgivable sins and thus the necessity for this post. I went on to tell her about how I felt about that position and what exactly is Christianity.
So here is my feeble attempt to clarify something most pastors don’t. People usually tell me “keep all that theology stuff, just give me the bible”. I told them the bible is a theological work and separating theology would be the same as cutting all the pages out of your bible and leaving the covers with “Holy Bible” on the front, oh you can keep the “given by” page also. Other than that Genesis to Revelation is all about theology and if the cross is properly taught I wouldn’t have to frequently correct Christians on this issue of suicide. I will briefly discuss: justification, atonement and sanctification. Without a clear perspective on these the loss of salvation because of some sin will always haunt Christians.
Justification: The legal declaration of “not guilty” declared by God through Christ’s death. Romans 3 says “God showed that He was just and that He was the justifier”. God being fully Righteous and Holy could not just declare all “not guilty” without being deemed unholy at that very point. So the covenant arranged in eternity past with the Godhead made a way for God to punish sin by placing our unrighteousness on Christ, judging Christ by condemning Him to die a criminals death on a cross thus allowing a way of escape for us by grace through faith. Therefore we are declared not guilty by the act of the Holy Trinity.
Atonement: Simply is a payment. This is the crux of this whole conversation. Christ pays for our sins thus we are reconciled to God. The difference here is that Christ’s payment covers ALL of our sins. Not like in the Old Testament where the blood of bulls and goats only allowed God to “wink” at the sins of those who disobeyed. No, Christ comes along as God and walks into the tabernacle and offers the sacrfice as our High Priest and becomes the sin offering or sacrificial lamb, only to be raised from the dead, seated at the right hand of the Father to continually intercede for us. This is a special work only Christ could do, but as those who have put their trust in Christ our sin isn’t just covered it is eradicated.
Sanctification: The dual nature of sanctification causes many to stumble. What I mean is that sanctification is an one time act by God in which He separates us from the world, gives us eternal life and prepares for us a tent not made with hands. The second part or the progressive part deals with our morality and Christlikeness which is an ongoing process until Christ returns to destroy the world then restore this world and judge sin, Satan and his angels, and to destroy death. One is positional one is personal. The one I am referring to here is what enables Paul to call the church at Phillippi “saints”. The word simply means Holy Ones. That Holiness only comes by imputation of Christ’s righteousness. We aren’t holy because of what we do, but it simply is because of who’s we are. When Christ purchased us with His blood we became Holy and set apart for God. We already have a realized salvation (John 5:24) we are only waiting for the full consummation of it when the Day of the Lord occurs. We don’t lose our holiness because we don’t cause it. We are totally passive in this as clearly described in Romans 8:29-30
So let me ask the question again. Is there room at the cross for suicide? You sure bet it is. A Christian is one who is reconciled to God, set apart for His glory, through the atoning work of Christ on the cross. Anyone who falls into that category has been fully justified thus no fear of condemnation exists for such an individual. God has worked this out in eternity past, before you even took your first breath (Ephesians 1). We have no fear of hell as those who have been redeemed by our Husband Christ. We are as secure as He is God. If Christ fails to be God then we fail to be secured. If Christ remains then we will remain regardless of the sin we commit (I am not saying we can live anyway and still say we are His, this flies in the face of 1 John). So you can (which I pray you will not and that you are in a Church where your brothers and sisters can pray for you, and that you can get clear biblical counseling) commit suicide and still go to heaven. I am sure there are many Christians who have because of their lack of faith, but aren’t we all faithless at times?
Amen, brother.
It’s often surprising to me the hold over of Roman theology that permeates even the staunchest of “Protestants” on this topic.
At the end of the day, either Romans 8:1 is so, or it ain’t so.
I’m against any and all sin and would never “condone” suicide, but to lay further anguish on the family of one so distraught is unkind to say the least.
I know … I know … folks like to say that a truly regenerate person would never do such a thing … a truly regenerate person would never get to that point of despair, but I’m not so sure.
Even the strongest of saints have struggled with depression over the years and done some (seemingly) dumb things.
There’s only one “unpardonable” sin and it ain’t suicide, divorce, or homosexuality, but that’s the topic of another post.
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
I’m no biblical scholar, but I’m not sure that I totally agree. The reality is suicide is murder and not to sound presumptuous, I think it’s a very legitimate question to ask whether they were really a child of God. Romans 8:1 bears that out… the key being if I am walking after the Spirit, there is no condemnation, and there is no suicide. For the Spirit is life!
Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Suicide is the product of a carnal mind which is death, for there is no peace.
Jus my thoughts.
I Ain’t Nobody!
Many people I know of usually throw out the example of Judas as an example of someone who committed sucicide, as well as Saul in the Bible/others, as proof that sucicide is a sin….
This is a topic that many get in disagreements about. I used to question God, saying “why can You not just keep these people from killing themselves, Your Almighty God?” I would take scriptures out of context like John 10:28, thinking God will save us from death (physical) like suicide. But when a close friend I know became suicidal, I saw that suicide can happen to a Christian. I thank the Lord Jesus Christ my friend didn’t harm himself. Reading the scriptures 1 John 1:8-10, 5:17, Galatians 6:1, I see that Christians do sin, they just don’t practice sin. So can a Christian committ suicide? Yes. God bless
Karsten Miller
Hey DJ,
You said:
“I’m no biblical scholar, but I’m not sure that I totally agree. The reality is suicide is murder and not to sound presumptuous, I think it’s a very legitimate question to ask whether they were really a child of God. Romans 8:1 bears that out… the key being if I am walking after the Spirit, there is no condemnation, and there is no suicide. For the Spirit is life!”
Lets say a Christian is on his daily commute and someone hits their car and they get mad and display sinful anger and at that point Christ returns. Does that person get into heaven?
Hey Gab you said:
“Many people I know of usually throw out the example of Judas as an example of someone who committed sucicide, as well as Saul in the Bible/others, as proof that sucicide is a sin….”
Suicide is sin. It is murder of one’s self. The question isn’t is suicide sin the question is which sins did Jesus die for on the cross. Did he die for everyone except this one.
Last question DJ,
You said “true Christians” don’t do certain things. Lets look at some stuff
1. In the book of 2 Samuel a man by the name of David slept with a dudes wife and then murdered him. His contrition is found in Psalms 51
2. A man by the name of Abraham lied to two sets of people about Sarah not being his wife “he is called the father of faith itself”
3. Noah was used as a type of savior by building an Ark for God and the bible calls him “righteous” after being found drunk and naked in a cave.
4. Moses murdered a man and buried him in the sand, not many years later God used him as a type of Savior.
5. Peter denied the Lord three times (what could be worse than that especially after being called “the petra” or the Rock).
6. A man steals his fathers wife and is in a sexual relationship with her and not only that is bringing her around the fellowship (1 Cor 5). This man is proven to be a Christian in 2 Corinthians.
6. Many of Christians throughout history have done very grave things. What of those things terminated their Christianity.
I know you are not a biblical scholar and neither am I. But I need you to go back and read the post again and lets dialogue about the nature of the atonement, sanctification, and Justification. True Christians sin everyday. Do we now only count “big sins”?
The issue is not big sin little sin for sin is sin and we know that Christ died for ALL sin. But each example that you’ve given does not relinquish the fact that there was space for repentance. Which I think reinforces that necessity. Of a truth, God knows His Chosen and has sealed us through His Spirit!
Eph 1:13-14
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation — having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
NASU
You asked:
“Lets say a Christian is on his daily commute and someone hits their car and they get mad and display sinful anger and at that point Christ returns. Does that person get into heaven?”
I’m not trying to be evasive, but the question is… Is this person regenerate? In my limited understanding I will try to tread lightly. Can we for certain say that in the book of Acts the deaths of Ananias and Sapphira in chapter 5 carries the same result as the death of Stephen in chapter 7?
From my limited understanding, that is what you appear to be proclaiming. Yet I would say that their is a definite distinction and purpose for the examples given. I would think that Judas Iscariot is an excellent example, not in his suicide, but in his life. One can have the very appearance and exude the signs of “Christianity” and yet not be regenerate. We can fool man, but in God’s eyes we (mankind) exist in only two realities… regenerate or unregenerate.
I’m in NO way saying that “true Christians” don’t do certain things. I merely presented scripture that bears out the TWO realities of God as presented biblically, which is His desire that we exist at either ends of the spectrum. That being hot or cold, flesh or Spirit, regenerate or unregenerate.
In Romans 8:1 the condemnation appears to be canceled out by two conditions, not simply by being in Christ alone, but also walking after the Spirit. Maybe I’ve read that wrong. Verse 6 of Romans 8 which I posted was simply to reinforce the two realities of flesh or Spirit, death or life.
So with regard to suicide, can we say that it emanates from the spirit? Yes… but not the Spirit of God! For suicide can only stem from a carnal mind and at least should raise a question as to their being a part of the Body of Christ. For to not question it, legitimizes it and does not bring Glory to God! It leaves space for fallibility in an infallible God’s plan of Salvation as somehow Christ not being enough. To which some may argue that it has nothing to do with salvation, yet it does cause we are called to exude the mind of Christ, which only comes THROUGH Salvation.
For unlike all the issues that we as Believers struggle, fall and stumble through, suicidal death (although not bigger than any sin) brings about finality to a life on our terms. A life that we no longer have the rights to.
1 Cor 6:19-20
19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
20 For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.
NASU
Our lives are no longer our own to do with as WE please, for we were bought with a price and suicide does not Glorify God.
-Selah
I Ain’t Nobody!
I still don’t think you answered my question. So let me ask a straightforwar way.
Which Sins did Jesus Christ die for on the cross?
Just because someone does something that is not glorifying to God doesn’t negate their regeneration. Gossip, Envy, Jealousy, unforgiveness, lust (man if Christ came back while you took an extra peak at someone your current theology would say you missed the boat), lies, theft, anger all our sins that are displeasing to God.
You then said:
“So with regard to suicide, can we say that it emanates from the spirit? Yes… but not the Spirit of God! For suicide can only stem from a carnal mind and at least should raise a question as to their being a part of the Body of Christ. For to not question it, legitimizes it and does not bring Glory to God! It leaves space for fallibility in an infallible God’s plan of Salvation as somehow Christ not being enough. To which some may argue that it has nothing to do with salvation, yet it does cause we are called to exude the mind of Christ, which only comes THROUGH Salvation”
I must ask which sins don’t come from a carnal mind? Of which of those carnally minded sins not paid for on the cross?
You then said:
“I’m not trying to be evasive, but the question is… Is this person regenerate? In my limited understanding I will try to tread lightly. Can we for certain say that in the book of Acts the deaths of Ananias and Sapphira in chapter 5 carries the same result as the death of Stephen in chapter 7?”
You missed me here. God killed Ananias and Sapphira wicked men rejecting the Gospel killed Stephen.
You then said:
“In Romans 8:1 the condemnation appears to be canceled out by two conditions, not simply by being in Christ alone, but also walking after the Spirit. Maybe I’ve read that wrong. Verse 6 of Romans 8 which I posted was simply to reinforce the two realities of flesh or Spirit, death or life.”
So is walking after the Spirit sinlessness? This is what is sounds like you are conveying.
You then said:
“From my limited understanding, that is what you appear to be proclaiming. Yet I would say that their is a definite distinction and purpose for the examples given. I would think that Judas Iscariot is an excellent example, not in his suicide, but in his life. One can have the very appearance and exude the signs of “Christianity” and yet not be regenerate. We can fool man, but in God’s eyes we (mankind) exist in only two realities… regenerate or unregenerate.”
From this statement it sounds like you are saying “a truley regenerate person wouldn’t commit such a sin”. Thus you in one breath say you aren’t ranking sin, but then in the next breath you are by saying “real christians wouldn’t do this paticular sin”. The only sin a real Christian wouldn’t do is “deny the Savior” thus they would admit that they were the soil that choked out the seed.
Finally you said:
“Our lives are no longer our own to do with as WE please, for we were bought with a price and suicide does not Glorify God.”
Tell me which sins do bring Glory to God please. The answer should be an emphatic not one! Thus if someone were to die while drunk driving would they not make it in? What about a guy who got caught cheating on his wife and she catches him and shoots him on the spot? What about a Christian who struggles with drug abuse and overdoses? You see your answer to all of these reveals the very mindset that I am countering in the blog. Which is:
Justification, Atonement, Reconciliation, Propitiation and Sanctfication are words that many Christians affirm in mouth but don’t fully apply in deed. You would have to redifine these words if you take the stance that “a Christian who commits suicide is not a true Christian”. By you saying what a “true Christian” wouldn’t you in turn deny the very fact that John says “when you sin you have an advocate with the Father” or in Romans “Christ sits at the right hand interceding for the saints” or “you have crossed over from death into life”.
So lets try to dialouge about the scriptues, because NOWHERE in the bible does God ever say “suicide is the one unforgivable sin” if so can you point it out so I can stand corrected. Thanks.
LOL… I thought the same thing after I submitted, I never really answered the question to a degree. Please forgive me, for I’ve obviously somehow miscommunicated or you’ve simply misread, so I will try to use the terms presented, and keep my response short.
My very first paragraph states that I believe Christ died for ALL sin. Nothing has escaped His Atonement. As such, suicide is NOT an unforgivable sin! I simply suggested that it should raise a question about their Salvation.
My attempt was only to take the focus off the end and place it on the beginning, which is to say that all who claim to be regenerate are not. That was the purpose of my Judas, Ananias and Sapphira examples. So I’ll ask you, these three persons are now enjoying the benefits of heaven, just as Stephen? Either by your premise they are, or we have to question if they were ever regenerate. That is the point I was trying to make.
My argument has never been an attempt to say that sin only exists with the unregenerate or that the regenerate are incapable of sin.
I Ain’t Nobody!
DJ you said:
“So I’ll ask you, these three persons are now enjoying the benefits of heaven, just as Stephen? Either by your premise they are, or we have to question if they were ever regenerate. That is the point I was trying to make.”
Judas is called “the son of perdition” so no way is he reedemed. The other two. The bible never says either way but the text lead me to say they were. God killed some more individuals in 1 Corinthians 11 for partaking of the Supper in an ill manner. I believe they were redeemed but I don’t know.
Mr.Woods great topic. From my understanding of The Word I believe once saved always saved. So if I am saved how can I be condemned to death? It is nothing I can do to undo what Christ has already done. I do believe we can lose focus and become so distraught over things that we fall and become weak. But it is some what hard to tell this to cranial people. People look at the act or the sin and try to answer something that was fix at my acceptance of Christ.
Mr.Woods you have a gift of breaking it down so lay people like my self can understand what you are saying. You remind me of my formerly pastor who I miss very much. Now I can recognize how I once thought before my coming to Christ. Please keep up the good work.
Thanx brother… while I accept that Christ is the Propitiation, and that ALL sin is covered by His Atonement, I don’t subscribe to the belief that gives me license to sin. Which is effectively what you’re saying in a sense, although I can’t see how Judas can be excluded from that. Because like Judas, we betray the Son of Man with our kiss every time we sin.
May the Grace of God continue with you!
I Ain’t Nobody!
Hey brother God gives us all license in a way. When you sin do you die? If so God has given you a license. Just kidding. Seriously I hold to what is termed “Lordship Salvation”, thus one who professes Christ should progressively (key word) look like Him more and more. 1 John puts it this way.
1. Do you say you have no sin – Liar
2. Do you love the world – Liar
3. Do you hate the bretheren – Liar
4. Do you hate the truth (namely the gospel) – Liar
5. Conclusion you are not a Christian.
However
1. Do you acknowlege that you are a sinner – Truth teller
2. Do you love righteousness and hate the worlds system of Lust of the Flesh, Lust of the Eye, and Pride of Life – Truth Teller
3. Do you love the bretheren – Truth Teller
4. Do you love the Truth of the Gospel – Truth teller
5. Conclusion “He who has the Son has life, he who does not have the son has life”
Thus if you run yourself through the teaching of 1 John and as he says “you are growing in these things” then you know that you have eternal life (1 John 5:12-13). I am not an antinomianim. I hold firmly that one who has been called out of darkness not walks in the light, for the person He walks with is light. I also believe that one who enjoys unrighteousness and their lives don’t look any better than day 1 can rest assured that they will spend eternity in Hell. Totally seperated from God. Finally you shouldn’t say that I hold to anything without first asking me what I hold to. Nowhere in the the post did I ever insinuate such a thing. I do believe Christians get depressed and the right circumstance with the right amount of pressure from Satan coupled with a lack of biblical fellowship and counseling could easily lead to taking ones life. Especailly for those who struggle with depression. I have never held to the belief that “I can live how I please and still be part of the convenant family”. I have always held a Lordship view and currently do.
I would say thanks for the conversation it has been interesting to see your point of view. I still hear in your comments “real Christians wouldn’t do this or that” and I fear that you have marginalized some sins over others. The Pharisees were guilty of such a thing and Christ continually pulls their card in which he says “beam in your eye homie don’t worry about your neighbors toothpick just yet”. I gurantee if I were to videotape you thought life you would be just as guilty as someone on Death Row. Christ says “if you think it so are ye”. We are all guilty some in different measures than others. I would say with all confidence that Cross is all powerful to take away ALL SIN thus a Christian who performs such an act may forfeit some rewards but as Paul says “they will escape”.
“I also believe that one who enjoys unrighteousness and their lives don’t look any better than day 1 can rest assured that they will spend eternity in Hell. Totally seperated from God.”
In the comment above, you’ve effectively said “real Christians wouldn’t do this or that”! That is the point that I was making all along… I was merely pointing to the beginning (as in your comment above), whereas for the most part you focused on the end.
“Finally you shouldn’t say that I hold to anything without first asking me what I hold to.”
Please forgive me for insinuating you hold to a particular belief system which you do not… I’m regretfully sorry.
“I still hear in your comments “real Christians wouldn’t do this or that” and I fear that you have marginalized some sins over others.”
That definitely is/was not my intent, but I believe that Word presents what “REAL” Christians do and don’t do. If it didn’t, then how would we know?
May God strengthen you!
I Ain’t Nobody!
My intent wasn’t to marginalize some sins over others. (Just to clarify).
I really think that the differene DJ is pattern versus acts. A real Christian my commit adultrey, I would challenge his/her Christianity if they said I refuse to reconcile and divorce their spouse to marry the next. I think a real Christan can commit murder if angered enough, I doubt that a real Christian could be a Serial Killer, I even would say a Real Christan could end slipping up with their significant other and have sex outside of marriage, I doubt that a real Christian would shack up with someone for long periods of times. I think a real Christian can be upset with a brother and not want to talk for awhile, I doubt that they are a real Christian if after someone confronts them that they would remain unreconciled. See where I am going. One is an act one is a lifestyle defined by sin.
I do however hear what you are saying and I wasn’t offended that you labeled me as “one against the law” but I would definitely refrain from using that tactic in conversation. Much love my brother this has been a great conversation and definitely has spurred me on to look at this with new eyes. God bless and I look forward to dialoguing with you in the near future.
Absolutely, but the reality is that in today’s climate, the acts are more often than not the result of an “undercover” pattern that has manifested itself. Because in the “culture of the church” 1 John is not a conducive pattern for the development of mature Believers.
My label was regretfully one of assumption, not a tactic.
God bless!
I Ain’t Nobody!
A agree, Lionel. Even we as Christians sin. Sometimes we are even aware of our sins. Years before I was married I committed adultery. I was a Christian then, but I lost my assurance. God was faithful and brought me back to repentance through daily sanctification. I heard some Christians talking junk about another Christian. One piped up and said, “We shouldn’t be talking about a brother in Christ this way.” Why didn’t they all realize it before then? The fact is, we sin all the time in little ways without even realizing it. That’s another reason why grace is so important.
I’d like to address something you said in the article:
“People usually tell me ‘keep all that theology stuff, just give me the bible’.”
You have a good answer to them. They should also understand that they are making a theological statement. They are saying that God doesn’t care about the details. The fact of the matter is that given the number of people that have ever lived, we are each little tiny details. If God doesn’t care about details, He doesn’t care about any one of us individually either. No – God cares about the details and He is worthy of our diligent study of Him. Theological study is part of our worship.
If anyone’s interested, consider checking out this article on suicide (which actually happened ALOT in the Scriptures):
http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=378
By the way,
In addressing the question of whether Christ died even for the sin of suicide, part of me can’t help but wonder why it seems that other forms of the action seem to get less press as if they’re OK/Christ is cool with forgiving them. Examples of this:
Medically Assisted Suicide (Euthenasia)- The doctor is supposed to save life, not destroy it. But, lately as destroying the lives of the unborn is more common place, destroying the lives of the sick has become the next logical step.
Suicide to prevent prolonged torture – Suppose someone was being tortured in an excruciating manner for an unbearably long period of time. Would suicide be an option? If so, why wouldn’t it be all right in the medically assisted context if the patient were also in excruciating pain for long periods of time?
Did Christ die for these as well?
I may’ve I missed it, but in case I wanted to mention that Suicide is NOT the unforgivable sin. Jesus spoke of the unforgivable sin in Matt. 12:22-32….BUT The context is when the Pharisees accused Jesus of casting out demons by the power of the devil. That showed that despite anything Christ did prior to that event or afterward, they were hardened in their hearts toward Him and determine to deny Him/Suppress the truth about Him in order to promote their own agenda (Romans 1:18-32)…..& when that happens, what else can one expect but to be cut off from ever recieving the forgiveness available in Christ?
Suicide is not the unforgivable sin. If that be the case, then God help those Christians who kill themselves due to DEPRESSION, as severe depression robs the mind of clear thinking and people in such states honestly aren’t in their right minds……or people who struggle with natural things such as being BI-POLAR/have CHEMICAL IMBALANCES that are of no fault of their own, as the medical community is full of accounts of extraordinary behaviors by people whose “circuits got crossed.” even when they didn’t ask it……& Just as it was for a diabetic, If the medicine stopped, then you’d be a a higher risk for doing something damaging.
Gab you said:
“Suicide to prevent prolonged torture – Suppose someone was being tortured in an excruciating manner for an unbearably long period of time. Would suicide be an option? If so, why wouldn’t it be all right in the medically assisted context if the patient were also in excruciating pain for long periods of time?”
Suicide is never the option and Doctors have no right nor patients have the right to take their own lives. The Sovereign God has allowed such situations and as Job once said “though you slay me”. So I think it doesn’t get much more unbearable than Job, but even in that Christ endured the worst of torture and pain and He was 100% innoncent and just as Job pursued God in His turmoil Christ comes along and bears not only the pain of the Roman execution He also bears the pain of being seperated from the Father. So if He would bear that for me I think I would do everything to bear terminal illness.