I have talked about Pastors/Elders quite a few times and now I want to direct my attention to those who are being shepherded. I will admit up front that this was something I was guilty of. Oh how my heart aches for such sins. The sin I am talking about is that of a difficult sheep. Now I want to clear something up before I start. There is but one Chief Shepherd and that is Christ; however, He has delegated a position/office/service whatever you like to call it and that is one of Elder/Pastor (some translations)/Shepherd. This is what Paul instructed both Timothy and Titus to appoint throughout the churches that were started by his evangelistic campaign of what is considered modern day Europe.
I have to give part of my testimony to give you a foundation of where I am going. For years I was a battered sheep sitting under legalist after legalist ministries. They would tell me what to wear, what to eat, what to give, and constantly used terms as rebuke and submit. These men were authoritative, domineering, oppressive, and abusive. Because they were pastors I thought I was doing the right thing. I just wanted to love God and serve Him. After a life of crime (serious ones at times) and pain and let downs, I was so glad that someone loved me (Jesus) so I didn’t want to disappoint Him. These leaders would tell me that I didn’t love Jesus if I didn’t submit and use scare tactics such as a loss of salvation or being demon possessed as a springboard for their positions. Me being ignorant to the scriptures and zealous for the Lord was easy prey for such wolves. Not to mention I was young and broken and guilt ridden with all of the sin I had accumulated throughout the years.
So I would sit and listen. I was the first person there and the last person to leave. I would set up, break down, give, serve, paint, sale chicken dinners on corners, wash cars, and anything else I could do. I just wanted Jesus to love to me and forgive me for all the wrong I had done. None of these fellas ever sat me down and said “Lionel, you are justified by grace through faith in Christ alone, apart from any religious works no matter your sincerity or effort, you can’t buy the free gift of eternal life and you don’t have a debt to pay, your invoice was nailed to the cross never to be brought up again”. So whenever I would sin, I would work harder, serve more, give more. The bigger the sin the bigger the payment.
I honestly flocked to these churches because of their work based salvation. Well after years of abuse and trying to discuss issues I had with some of the teaching I became a threat to these ministries. The more I would try to shut up the more vocal I became. Well one day a pastor took everything the church had (it was only about 15 of us anyway) and skipped town. He had taken the car the church was paying on (defaulted the loan) he took all the money out of the bank and he took a part of me with him. I was scarred emotionally and spiritually by what he did. I soon left and became a 5 percenter and went on a Christian witch hunt. I would find weak untrained Christians like myself and feast upon them like a lion at a buffet! Well after a run in with the law I came back the Christianity but with the skepticism of a conspiracy theorist. If some raised a love offering for a pastor I wouldn’t give a penny, if people would honor pastors I would be the first to say they were exalting a man. I would go from church to church and find everything wrong with every church. That leads me to the last 2 years under the care and shepherdship of Dhati Lewis and Calvin Clark of Lifeline Bible Church. I would say I still struggle but I really began to understand what Servant Leadership looked like but there was still some problems. I still had some emotional baggage even as of the last 6 months.
The last six months have been some of the greatest healing in this area for me. I understand that some of my difficulty arose from a lack of letting go past hurts which led to over skepticism. Though I have never been a trouble maker I would still refuse to get to close to either of these men. I was also maybe a little more difficult than I should have been. Thus that leads to the verse below and the practical outworking of this strong imperative given by the writer of Hebrews in Chapter 13:
17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.
My focus isn’t much on the obeying and submission because when you understand part b of the verse and strive to fulfill it the obeying and submission part become a non-issue. The writer says “Let them do this with JOY”! As you sit back and think about your life as a member of your local church are you fulfilling this command? If your conversations about your church, your leaders, and your congregation were recorded and played back on the big screen before all would your pastors crack a smile with joy or would they be embarrassed by the content of your conversations. What about your prayer life? Is it saturated with rejoicing and affection and concern for the welfare of your church and the leaders God has appointed over it? Or is it saturated with disdain and discontentment? What about your conversations with your spouse? Are they praising and edifying of your leaders or is something to shameful for even nonbelievers to hear? I will say that many of my conversations have been to the negative and I am extremely sorrowful for such conversations. Our leaders need to know that we have their back, that we are praying for their wisdom and God’s favor upon them. They need to rest assured that if no one else is on their team, if the entire council of the adversary is raising against them, if their families are ridiculing them for the office God has chosen them for, that we support them and love them and that we are begging God to send encouragement and support for them.
Our leaders should know that we trust them and most of all that we love them as they love us and as that we trust them as they “watch over our souls”! I have come to realize that through my reading of Corinthians that Paul, Timothy and his fellow workers loved the Corinthians and what they got in return was a request for a letter of recommendation. That Paul labored for their souls and all he got in return was schisms and cliques and skepticism. Eloquent man would come along and snatch them right from under Paul. He would come and work with his own hands not asking for one red cent and these other fellows would come along and rob them blind and then be commended for it. I see Paul’s frustration and now I can see every pastors frustration. That after spending countless hours preparing, praying, serving, giving, committing, sacrficing, even at times having to forgo family time for the sheep in his care, that all he got in return was complaints, bickering, divisions, allegiance, discontentment, arguing, and the like. Instead of making this a joyful service we added another 500 pounds of grief to their lives. We should be begging for forgiveness for such attitudes!
So pratically what does this look like? Here are some suggestions.
1. First walk up and give your pastor a big hug and say thanks!
2. Make a commitment from this day forward to pray without ceasing for your leaders. Make it a priority in your prayer life. If you don’t have anything to pray about I just gave you something you can spend hours a day praying for.
3. Make a commitment from this day forward not to speak a negative word behind your leaders back. If there is a serious concern let them know after spending time in prayer for your own heart then theirs.
4. Don’t participate in any gossip or corrupt speech about your pastor or anyone in your church. Avoid those people and rebuke them to their faces with gentleness and meekness. Tell them that this only brings heartache to your fellowship.
5. If you can get with some other people and try to have each of your leaders over for dinner or buy them a gift card to their favorite restaurant.
6. Ask them if you can keep their children so they can enjoy some time together with just their spouse. You don’t know how many of our leaders need this, especially those with the primary teaching responsibilities.
7. Finally Give, Give, Give! Many pastors are losing sleep thinking about the budget. We benefit from their labor and we are committed to this local fellowship so giving is a natural outworking of this. Believe it or not, they really do need the money. This applies to churches who are being faithful to the Great Commission and if they aren’t you shouldn’t be there anyway.
This list is not exhaustive and I know many leaders can add maybe 20 bullet points to this. If you are a faithful shepherd God bless you and thank you. If my Brothers and former leaders read this. I apologize for any inconvenience thank you for your help and patience. For my fellow brethren who may not be in a leadership role in the local fellowship lets continue to grow in these areas and challenge each other. God bless.
Paul instructed both Timothy and Titus to appoint elders; Paul had authority as an apostle to instruct. Who today has this kind of authority? Who appoints today and how can we know that those appointed are approved of God, the answer TITUS.
1.The office of elder (Bishop, overseer’s) not pastor, the word “pastor” was used of ruler’s in the old testament, there’s no were in the new testament that assigns the title of (ruler) pastor to any man.
Bishop/elder is a desired post, a Good work to do, a volunteer in the house of God, one becomes a Bishop/elder by
a) A vote by stretching out the hand
b) Created or appointed by vote:
As you can see, this is not a position that God call’s a man too, you’ve heard it I’m sure” God called me to pastor” this term is man made, again theirs no scripture to support the calling of pastors to lead the body. Nonetheless we can find the term and qualifications for Bishop/elder, this is an appointed position that one obtains by a congregation voting and ordaining their elders/Bishops. Titus gives the Body the qualifications needed to cast a qualifying vote for any man desiring the office of Bishop/elders.
2. Must first be tested, blameless, irreproachable
3. The Husband of one wife
4. vigilant,
5. Sober,
6. of good behavior,
7. Given to hospitality,
8. apt to teach;
9. Not given to wine,
10. No striker,
11. Not greedy of filthy lucre;
12. but patient,
13. Not a brawler,
14. Not covetous;
15. One that rules well his own house,
16. Having his children in subjection with all gravity;
17. Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
18. Moreover he must have a good report of them out side the Church; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
19. Wife’s must also first be examined
So before you cow taw before these men of men,( unless they were appointed by the congregation) your responsibility is to show yourself approved of God, and cast your vote for the real man of God, (this man should come from among your congregation) one that meets all the qualifications laid down by God in his word,
Have you noticed education is not a requirement?
Msamu,
You bring up some really good issues to discuss that I think is interactive for all. If I am hearing you right (correct me if I am wrong brother) who exactly has the right to become a leader? This is an even more sensitive topic that you and I can work through here on the blog. I love your heart and your courage to challenge the status quo my man! It is heart warming to see you work through this issue instead of being a consumer of what is sold in many churches today. With that being said can you provide me with these answers.
1. Where do you get your position from in the scriptures that the congregation should appoint elders?
2. Where can you find it in scriptures that there is a vote taken to appoint elders/bishops/overseers/shepherds/pastors all interchangeable words?
Where I agree:
1.I can’t find for the life of me that Elders appoint elders! This isn’t found anywhere in scripture
2. I believe in pluarality in the purest form where no man holds full authority but that the elders (in consensus with the body of local gathering) are to watch over the flock and protect them from false teaching and the like.
3. That people are not called but that this is an area of gifting that the body recognizes and even particpates in.
I hope you reply to this so we can start an honest discussion for our bretheren to see. I think I may look through the scriptures and provide a systematic approach to this. Let me know what you think.
1. Where do you get your position from in the scriptures that the congregation should appoint elders?
My answer: Here’s the question, how are we to know who’s to lead us today, apostolic succession cannot be traced, unlike the catholic Church that claims they can trace the pope’s succession back to Peter, the Biblical church cannot, what we have is Titus? We’re given instructions on the requirements needed in the appointment of elders in the Church, how’s this to be accomplished, how are these elders appointed and by who if not by the congregation that should know their brother.
2.Where can you find it in scriptures that there is a vote taken to appoint elders/bishops/overseers/shepherds/pastors all interchangeable words?
My answer: The same place we fine God ” called a man to pastor” The term Pastor is not interchangeable with bishop/overseer, we are Christ’s sheep we are not sheep to any man, again we see Paul ordaining Titus and others, the same question is asked who ordains today????
I struggle with the first point but biblically I agree. You are correct my brother in every way possible. Once again it is a hard struggle because most churches are not set up that way (how about 99%). Most would say that Elders apoint elders but I don’t think they have much proof on this.
For you second point I disagree that the term Pastor and overseer are not used synonomously. Let me explain. The word pastor is translated poimēn which is the greek word for Shepherd correct.
Now turn to 1 Peter 5 what is Peter exhorting the elders to do? He tells them to “poimainō” the “poimnion” which translated says “Shepherd the Flock/Sheep”. Or Feed the Flock, or nuture the sheep however you feel like saying. I think I talked with Derrick about this very thing.
The word pastor is the word Shepherd and the masculine noun shepherd is used metaphorically to descirbe one who leads the assembly of believers thus is interchangable with elders/bishop/presbyter/overseer. All of these words mean the same thing in the New Testament writing.
I would agree with you that Christ is called our archipoimēn in which arch means Chief and poimen means shepherd so he is our Chief Shepherd thus are ulitmate head and Elders/Pastors don’t rule independent of His authority but it is delegated through Paul’s writings that there are men set up in the local assembly to feed the flock of God. This is why Peter is giving this warning in 1 Peter 5:
shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you;not for shameful gain, but eagerly; 3 not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock.
Thus we see two more words “oversight” and “in your charge” which is klēros an assignment only given to the elders in the New Testament.
But I do see what your saying. Without any clear apostolic succession we do have some serious problems.
I was freaking out I could’nt fine my references on the voting, the word ordained (kha-ro-to-ne-o)
Means:
1) to vote by stretching out the hand
2) to create or appoint by vote: one to have charge of some office or duty
3) to elect, create, appoint
Titus was ordained Bishop, we the body are to appoint, elect, stretch out our hand by vote in appointing our Bishop’s/elders
see Tts 3:15
I must say,
I am enjoying watching this issue dealt with here brothers. I believe there is some flexibility when it comes to some of “ins and outs” of church leadership and the delegation thereof. I say that because nowhere are we given a concise flowchart for our little modern minds to digest that tells us “thus and so” on this matter.
Keep it up.
Hey SJ,
Many disagree with me, but you will not find anywhere in Paul’s writing a letter to an Elder! Never. It is always to the elders or overseers. Whenever leadership is addressed it is addressed in the plural.
Ephesians 4/Acts 20
Philippians 1
Timothy 2
Titus 1
James 5
1 Peter 5
Acts 11
Acts 15
Acts 16
Acts 21
Now many people will attempt to argue with me about the “senior pastor” model. I am not saying it is sinful but definitely unbiblical not once do we see one person being in charge of a church their was always and I do mean always a plurality and the only chief elder ever mentioned in scripture is Jesus Christ and He is called the Chief Shepherd.
I hope people don’t attempt to say the bible is silent on this because I will bring the onslaught of things that are considered regulatory principles in the chuch today (how often should someone come, how much should they give, how worship should be done, seeker sensitive, and the likes) I will have field day with that one. I believe the only option you have is pluarality no other model is biblical.
Hey Msamu,
Where are you getting that from. In the context of Titus 1:5 Paul tells Titus to appoint (kathistēmi) which means to
1) to set, place, put
a) to set one over a thing (in charge of it)
b) to appoint one to administer an office
c) to set down as, constitute, to declare, show to be
d) to constitute, to render, make, cause to be
e) to conduct or bring to a certain place
f) to show or exhibit one’s self
Which dictionary are you using? Or which word were you focusing on?
Overseer e-pē’-sko-pos
1) an overseer
a) a man charged with the duty of seeing that things to be done by others are done rightly, any curator, guardian or superintendent
b) the superintendent, elder, or overseer of a Christian church
Bishop:
1) investigation, inspection, visitation
a) that act by which God looks into and searches out the ways, deeds character, of men, in order to adjudge them their lot accordingly, whether joyous or sad
b) oversight
1) overseership, office, charge, the office of an elder
2) the overseer or presiding officers of a Christian church
Pastor:
) a herdsman, esp. a shepherd
a) in the parable, he to whose care and control others have committed themselves, and whose precepts they follow
2) metaph.
a) the presiding officer, manager, director, of any assembly: so of Christ the Head of the church
1) of the overseers of the Christian assemblies
2) of kings and princes
Paul never calls anyone a pastor, in every instance he uses the term bishop, he never ordained pastors. We ordain pastor’s and choose not to ordain bishops, and bishop are the office that God assigned as the elected officer that is to preside over the congregation,
“If a man desire the office of a bishop”
“not if a man desire the office of pastor”
Notice the 2nd definition of pastor “of kings and princes” this is how the so called church treats the so called pastor, his wife’s the first lady, his son is 2nd in line to succeed his father on the throne, we treat them as if their royalty, even their seat look’s like a throne, notice the definition of bishop never carry’s the intent a KING,
I submit it’s because Christ is Pastor our KING, man can only be Bishop, an officer elected by the congregation to keep order in the house of God.
Msamu you keep saying that and I keep giving you the scripture. Read it again
Ephesians 4:11
10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherd and teachers,
The word rendered shephered in the ESV is where we get our word pastor. Why do you keep saying that. Just because someone abuses the service of a pastor doesn’t negate the fact that Christ gave some as pastors/elders/overseers. And Paul in Ephesians 4:11 calls them “pastors or shephereds” whichever you prefer. The word Bishop and Elder are used interchangably just as salvaton/regeneration/born again are used in the same way. I am totally lost at what you are getting at now.
Lionel,
First off Bro. Easy.
Secondly, I completely agree that plurality is best, wisest and most honest to the text of Scripture. There is one thing I have to constantly remind myself of though.
Paul never wrote(at least canonically) to “AN” elder, it was alway a plural “the elders”, “The pastors”, what have you. But, he also said “the elders of ____(a City name).
Now. Was he writing to the church proper in the collective form from out of the city mentioned? Or, was he writing to the Pastors of individual leaders of church congregations that were separate but held together by the Supreme Eldership of Christ?
I could write a letter and adress it to the church in in Chicago. Now, we all know that there are many church-”es”, but in Christ, they are one (the real ones anyway). There is then a plurality of individual leaders (elders) of the separate sub-groups.
So was Paul writing to the collective elders of various congregations? Or was there only one church body in each of these cities and he was writing to the plurality of leaders in each?
I have gotten real hard headed on this issue in the past, and I do still believe strongly in a plurality of elders in a local body. But to use Paul’s address to the “the elders”, “the church” and so on and define it as always regarding how to run a specific congregation is also not honest to the text.
I also don’t want to skip over the main point of the post here Bro. Good stuff. I see the greif that pastors (my own, and guys like Dad) get from either overtly trouble causing people or tragically and frighteningly indifferent people.
Few things cause more discomfort when you preach your heart out people walk up afterward and say “nice sermon, you did a good job”. And all the while they are wondering whether they cook at home or go to Wendy’s. It’s very disapointing. You want tears, anxst, tension, conflict. This is no dull instrument you’ve been given, but when people are not cut by it, it makes you discouraged to say the least.
To MSAMU and B&R,
I thought that both of you should consider investgiating this article, as there were points within it that seem to deal with both sides of the issue and seem to give some interesting points that have had me buggn’n.
http://www.awildernessvoice.org/GEC.html
Black, my point has been made, there’re no pastor’s named in scripture ie. Pastor Coleman, pastor bob, my pastor, the pastor. I’m using the biblical name for leaders in the body, the given name of the office one can desire, and what’s need to obtain said office. Your correct he Gave (past tense) he has given to the body the office of bishop to any man meeting the requirements. plus what’s wrong with calling leaders what the bible calls then, did not Paul ordainBishops?
I think that msamu needs to do a study on the word pastor/teacher and how it is accociated in the NT text.
The Greek text is Agglutenative. I agree with Lionel. Pastor Xerxes.
msamu
The word itself is derived from the Latin word pastor which means shepherd. Pastor, shepherd and elder are the same, but are not synonymous with preacher or minister. The qualifications for an elder (also called Pastor, shepherd, or overseer) can be found in I Timothy 3: 1-14;Titus 1:5-9.
The usage of pastor comes from its use in the Bible. In the Hebrew Bible (or Old Testament), the Hebrew word רעה (raʿah) is used. The word is used 173 times, and is used to describe feeding sheep like in Genesis 29:7 and also in regards to human beings like in Jeremiah 3:15, “And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding” (KJV). [1]
In the New Testament, the Greek word ποιμήν (poimēn) is used and is normally translated pastor or shepherd. The word is used 18 times in the New Testament. For example, Ephesians 4:11, “And He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastor(s) and teachers” (KJV). Jesus also called himself the “Good Shepherd” in John 10:11. [2] Although the word pastor is mentioned once in the New Testament the position has overtaken all the other spiritual gifts mentioned in the Bible.
New Testament writers may have used pastor as a synonym for the head of church elder (presbuteros) or Bishop (episkopos). For example, in Acts 20:17, the Apostle Paul summons the elders of the church in Ephesus to give a last discourse to them; in the process, in Acts 20:28, he tells them that the Holy Spirit has made them bishops, and that their job is to sheperd their church. Peter uses much the same language in 1 Peter 5:1-2, telling the elders among his readers that they are to sheperd not “lord over” the flock in their charge, acting as bishops.
Paul also gives a list of characteristics that men serving in this capacity ought to possess. In 1 Timothy 3:1-7, Paul gives a list for those serving as sheperds. In Titus 1:5-9, a remarkably similar list is given, this time directed to elders which may lead some to believe them to be the same.
According to many scholars, the practice of separating or dividing into the elevated position of pastor and bishop did not originate until at least the 3rd century along with many other practices copied from the surrounding pagans. At this time, single bishops (as opposed to the body of bishops, or elders, that churches had in the 1st century) began to oversee an entire city’s group of believers, even if they met in different locations around the city.[3] By the 3rd and 4th century, some of the most prominent cities’ bishops began exercising lordship over an entire region of churches, in the familiar parish or diocese arrangement of many Christian groups today.[4]
Historical usage
Around 400 AD, Augustine, a famous North African bishop, described a pastor’s job:
Disturbers are to be rebuked, the low-spirited to be encouraged, the infirm to be supported, objectors confuted, the treacherous guarded against, the unskilled taught, the lazy aroused, the contentious restrained, the haughty repressed, litigants pacified, the poor relieved, the oppressed liberated, the good approved, the evil borne with, and all are to be loved.[5]
Current usage
In Protestantism
Many Protestants use the term pastor as a title (e.g., Pastor Smith) or as a job title (like Senior Pastor or Worship Pastor). Some Protestants contend that utilizing the appellation of pastor to refer to an ordained minister contradicts the Protestant doctrine of the priesthood of all believers, and, therefore, reject the use of the term pastor for their leaders. These include some parts of the Lutheran, Mennonite, Methodist, Presbyterian, Reformed , American Churches of Christ, the Assemblies of God, and Baptist traditions.
The use of the term pastor to refer to the common Protestant title of modern times dates to the days of John Calvin and Huldrych Zwingli. Both men, and other Reformers seem to have revived the term to replace the Catholic priest in the minds of their followers, although the Pastor was still considered separate from the board of presbyters. Few Protestant groups today still view the pastor, bishop, and elder as synonymous terms or offices; many who do are descended from the Restoration Movement in America during the 1800s, such as the Disciples of Christ and the Churches of Christ.
The term pastor is sometimes used for missionaries in developed countries to avoid offending some people from the industrialized countries who may think that missionaries go only to less developed countries.
Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican
Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglican churches typically refer to their leaders as priests (although the term pastor may also be used, particularly in North America). Anglican churches rarely use the term “pastor”, preferring the words rector and vicar. Every Catholic parish is entrusted to the care of a single pastor, who is ordinarily a priest. The associate pastor is called a parochial vicar, if a priest; or a pastoral associate, if a lay ecclesial minister.
One Pastor Xerxes!
Hey Michae you said:
Black, my point has been made, there’re no pastor’s named in scripture ie. Pastor Coleman, pastor bob, my pastor, the pastor. I’m using the biblical name for leaders in the body, the given name of the office one can desire, and what’s need to obtain said office. Your correct he Gave (past tense) he has given to the body the office of bishop to any man meeting the requirements. plus what’s wrong with calling leaders what the bible calls then, did not Paul ordainBishops?
Pastor is an office/service not a name. It is just common practice today to call someone Minister Saiko, or Pastor Redmond, or Pastor John, or Pastor X (the pastor who posted above) I believe you can call them either and they should be willing to be called by their name. Paul sometimes addressed himself as Paul the apostle which was the office given to him by Christ.
With that “he gave” doesn’t necessarily mean that all offices ceased. There are still teachers and there are still pastor/shepherds (1 Peter 5), Elders (1 Timothy 3, Titus 1) so we know that this office does and will exist while God still calls us to meet as a local ekklesia! The proper order and structure of the church is to have elders (at least one, preferablly plural) God has always designated leadership from the Garden forward, it does not set up a clergy/layman (which is a horrible word by the way) distinctive for we are all brothers and sheep under the Chief Shepherd Christ just like the wife is not “beneath” her husband it is a voluntary submission which is an imperative. We can’t neglect it to do that would be sin brother.
Hey SJ you said:
Lionel,
First off Bro. Easy
I wasn’t gettin rowdy bro. Sorry if my electronic communication was conveyed in such a way. I agree with you completely. I still will say that from the clear literal information provided in the scripture there seems to be a pluarlity. To respond to your statement about fairness to the text, I always ask are there ever any elders addressed independently? To your other questions there may have been more than one church in a city led by just one elder; however, the plurality is that there was another church who met fairly closely in the same city and these two churches worked side by side thus creating a plurality which we get the “Church at Ephesus” which was probably made up of a bunch of interdependent house churches.
Black& others: We can go back and forth on this; I will continue to stand on the scripture: you’re free to interchange, I will agree to disagree.
The major issue is still,
1. Who’s qualified :
a.scripture gives the qualifications, all must be meant
2. How are they chosen:
a.the congregation is to ordain (Vote, agree Acts 6:3 can be used as a president) the man that has met all biblical mandated qualifications.
What we don’t see in scripture;
Men claiming to be called by God to pastor, either meeting or not meeting the qualifications mandated in scripture
Which again are
1.have met all mandated biblical qualifications
2.ordained by the congregation
Grace & peace!
So far as I have studied, I can’t say that I’ve found where Elders are “ordained” by the congregation. I think that Pastor Xerxes has touched on the process given by Scripture.
Jeremiah 3:15, “And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding” (KJV).
There is a call given to serve. Jesus called His Disciples. While the congregation plays a role in the ordination process, that role is more for lack of a better term, “judgmental” in a sense… more like what happens at a marriage ceremony, when it’s asked if anyone has a reason why the marriage couple should not be joined in marriage. I’m not trying to make light of that role either.
Eldership is always mentioned in plurality throughout Scripture and is the biblically mandated order for church leadership. The Elders are co-equal in office, but not in giftings or functions because no single individual is capable of fufilling the 5-fold ministry (Ephesians 4:11-13).
Christ Jesus was the only Man through whom the 5-fold ministry was singularly manifested. He left the example of calling, discipling, ordaining. No question that the church today has moved far from that model.
Msamu, I’ve always understood that Acts 6:3 was not an “ordination” process, but rather an event which some point to as Deaconship. The call to appoint in that Scripture was based upon a distribution issue and not based upon the need for one of the 5-fold ministries.
My observation is as one striving to know truth.
I Ain’t Nobody!
Let me clarify my comment in the last paragraph about ordination. I’m speaking specifically about Eldership ordination.
Sorry.
I Ain’t Nobody!
djdesignz:
Titus was ordained the first Bishop: the word Ordained means:
1) to vote by stretching out the hand
2) to create or appoint by vote: one to have charge of some office or duty
3) to elect, create, appoint
Again no one is answering the question: who ordains today,
unlike the catholic Church that claims they can trace the pope’s succession back to Peter, the Biblical church cannot, if we don’t have Apostolic succession, and we don’t then leadership cannot be passed down, if Titus was ordained Bishop a disired position, not a calling(please see biblical definitionof ordained) please SOMEONE explain why the church ignores this biblical process .
For you five fold defenders:
And he gave some, apostles;
this is clearly the 12, there are no apostles today
and some, prophets;
this is clearly the 12 prophets from the old testament and Christ, there are not prophets today
and some, evangelists; this is clearly John the Baptist and the 12, along with every believer,
and some, pastors this is meant of the king’s God gave to Israel, there are no Kings other then Christ today.
and teachers; this we have today and is one of the qualifications required in the office of Bishop/elder,
Msamu, I can not speak from what I don’t know. But apparently you’ve answered your own question. Since there is no lineage today that follows the biblical process you’ve explained, then there is no “ordained” leadership in the biblical church outside of Catholicism. Everything else is simply a farce.
Question-
What did the 12 Prophets and Christ have in common?
May the grace of God keep you.
I Ain’t Nobody!
Again to ordain is the process of voting for a Man that meets all qualifcation laid down in scripture, this nonsense of “I was called to preach, or called to pastor” is nonsense.
As far as what Christ and the 12 have in command, please I’m waiting
Also I’m not sure what the I ain’t nobody means
I ain’t nobody simply means… I (djdesignz) really isn’t anyone and it stems from a time when I was really angry with God.
I Ain’t Nobody!
Black, not to beat a dead horse, I understand the meaning of the roles of Elder, Presbyter, Overseer, Bishop, Shepherd, Pastor and that biblically their meaning are interchangeable.
But today the terms are not used interchangeably; these offices have been broken down in an unbiblical way no longer resembling the biblical model.
People are taught false doctrine from their denominations, that the “office of Bishop” is a different office than the “office of Pastor” and the “office of Elder” and the “office of Steward”. They are falsely taught that these are three distinct offices, rather than three descriptive terms that describe the same ONE office. This error is what has given today’s Church rulers instead of servants, the high standards God has set in his word has been relegated to a sidebar. How many sermons have you heard preached on the standards of spiritual leadership? Yes their interchangeable when were studying the Greek, but the baby has been split and now it worth zero.
The Body have embraced an unbiblical standard that now encourages believers to proclaim that either God called them to preach/pastor in some mystical way (the reason why some woman challenge scripture believing God’s calling some how supersedes scripture) or that summary training/education voids the scriptural mandates for the spiritual leader.
Churches appoint their own plurality of elders using 1 Timothy 3, and Titus 1 as guidelines for the qualifications, this to has never been taught, and will never be.
The divine directive:
1.Tit 1:5 “For this reason, I left you in Crete, that you might set in order what remains, and APPOINT ELDERS IN EVERY CITY as I directed you.”
2.Acts 14:23 “And when they had APPOINTED ELDERS IN EVERY CHURCH, having prayed and fasted, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed.”
Unscripturally organized:
1.Pastor system (one man over church)
2.Unqualified men (Position worse than having no elders at all)
3.any organization larger than local church (world headquarters etc.)
Unscripturally unorganized: church has qualified men who are not elders
Scripturally organized: a church which has a qualified eldership
Scripturally unorganized:
1. a church without elders because no one qualified: Acts 14:1-3,6,8,21-23
2. a church with no elders, when qualified men could be appointed, “lacks”: Tit
If a local congregation ignores biblical guidelines mandating the order and qualifications laid down in scripture is that congregation led by God????
Hey Michael everytime you say something crazy I am going to force you to exposit some scriptures for me. So since you have said that no one is “called” I want you to answer a couple of questions. I am also going to use these verses to say that it is the Elders who appoint elders and not the congregation. I think the congregation should be involved to vouch for his characther and also if the congregation feels that there is a need for addtional Elders they can bring it before the elders. So here we go
1 Timothy 4:14-15
14 Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophecy when the council of elders laid their hands on you. 15 Practice these things, immerse yourself in them, so that all may see your progress. 16 Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.
Two questions for you.
1. What was the gift
2. What is this council of elders
Now I have an idea but I will let you answer it.
Romans 10
14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!”
Is this a clarion call to all Christians who is the person being sent? I know we are all God’s ambassadors but is this verse in the context it was given. Paul uses “kēryssō” which isn’t an informal but a formal type of preaching which is used to refer to John the Baptist, Christ and the Apostles (and other people who are teachers). This isn’t the basic sharing your faith type of call. This person is sent. Maybe I am off on this but can you clarify them for me? Thanks.
Mr Woods: I am also going to use these verses to say that it is the Elders who appoint elders and not the congregation. I think the congregation should be involved to vouch for his character and also if the congregation feels that there is a need for additional Elders they can bring it before the elders.
Msamu: Who appoints the elders that appointed the bishop that met all biblically mandated requirements??
1 Timothy 4:14-15
14 Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophecy when the council of elders laid their hands on you. 15 Practice these things, immerse yourself in them, so that all may see your progress. 16 Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.
Two questions for you.
1.What was the gift
a. favour with which one receives without any merit of his own
b. the gift of divine grace
c. the gift of faith, knowledge, holiness, virtue
b. the economy of divine grace, by which the pardon of sin and eternal salvation is appointed to sinners in consideration of the merits of Christ laid hold of by faith
e. grace or gifts denoting extraordinary powers, distinguishing certain Christians and enabling them to serve the church of Christ, the reception of which is due to the power of divine grace operating on their souls by the Holy Spirit
2. What is this council of elders?
This was the council of elders that met the requirements laid down by the apostles, again Titus 1:5 Act 14:23 In the New Testament elders attain their position by appointment either by Paul or Barnabas (Acts 14:23) or by Timothy (1 Timothy 5:22) or by Titus (1:5). The Holy Spirit was active in these appointments so that it could be said that he had made them overseers (Acts 20:28). But this divine guidance did not short circuit the normal assessment of a person’s character since according to 1 Timothy 3:2-7 and Titus 1:5-9 the elder/overseer had to have an exemplary family, a spiritually mature character, and an ability to give sound teaching. The appointment was a kind of ordination to a sacred calling which was performed by the laying on of hands (1 Timothy 5:22; cf. Acts 13:3).
Romans 10
I know this is not a popular thing to say but, Paul was specking of Israel, he begins with “Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved” Israel had been sent preacher after preacher, declaring the word of God, the quote “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” is an old testament quote (Isa 52:7, Nah 1:15) specking of the joy in bringing the Good news to Israel.
it’s also used of the public proclamation of the gospel and matters pertaining to it, made by John the Baptist, by Jesus, by the apostles and other Christian teachers
Msamu, I don’t disagree that there is a danger in the fact that many “claim” to be called to service as a matter of convenience. If you read Titus 1:9-16 if gives a reason why those qualifications are iterated and I’m not sure those qualifications negate God’s calling.
CALL (proskaleo) – the divine call in entrusting men with the preaching of the gospel.
(Examples found in the scriptures below)
Acts 13:2-5
2 While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have CALLED them.” (<<—- calling)
3 Then, when they had fasted and prayed and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.
4 So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia and from there they sailed to Cyprus.
5 When they reached Salamis, they began to proclaim the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews; and they also had John as their helper.
NASU
(Verse 5 is the result of the of the call in verse 2)
Acts 16:9-10
9 A vision appeared to Paul in the night: a man of Macedonia was standing and appealing to him, and saying, “Come over to Macedonia and help us.”
10 When he had seen the vision, immediately we sought to go into Macedonia, concluding that God had CALLED us to preach the gospel to them.
NASU
In the above Scriptures, could Barnabas, Saul or Paul deny they were called by God?
Msamu, your point about the use of the term Bishop by denominations to elevate men to a singularly powerful position is without question an issue.
Your point about the dangers of people “claiming” to be called by God is something that has been an issue throughout scripture, yet I as tried to show through several scriptures above, I don’t believe it is nonsense or unbiblical. Claiming to be called by God does not exempt one from meeting the qualifications expressed in Titus and I will go so far as to say that the calling DEMANDS one meets those qualifications!
The sad but true fact is, there are many churches that don’t adhere to a Scripturally organized leadership as presented biblically, and it’s a sign of how far away things have gotten from the first century model presented in Scripture.
I thank God for your expressions and concerns.
I Ain’t Nobody!
I Ain’t Nobody:
Men Like Paul and others living in Christ day were called, this calling came because the Church was without the cannon of scripture, we now have the completed word of God, we have been given the qualifications that God requires of “The Man of God” how can one’s call be validated? Scripture. If a man claims to be “called” How is his call to be examined? Scripture, Today, men claim the call but do not fulfill the mandate scripture requires, Does the Church stand on Gods mandate? or does the Church just accept the fact that any man can say God put me here and only God can release me, were is this in scripture? Nonsense
I’m still kinda confused… if your saying that Apostolic succession is only found in the Catholic Church because the Biblical Church is UNABLE to trace Apostolic succession back to the Apostles… how is it then that Elders can be ordained simply by a congregation? How have congregations today received Apostolic authority to ordain? If the lineage in the Biblical church today can not be traced back to the “Bishop”, from where does the congregation receive its authority to ordain?
You said;
“Again no one is answering the question: who ordains today,
unlike the catholic Church that claims they can trace the pope’s succession back to Peter, the Biblical church cannot, if we don’t have Apostolic succession, and we don’t then leadership cannot be passed down, if Titus was ordained Bishop a disired position, not a calling(please see biblical definitionof ordained) please SOMEONE explain why the church ignores this biblical process.”
You can’t be saying that men are no longer called by God today because we have the full canon of scripture and at the same time saying no one has the right to ordain one to Eldership because the Apostolic succession has been broken and at the same time saying the only way to become an Elder today is through ordination by the congregation? Is this the process that God has left by which leaders are chosen? Does this make sense to you?
These are huge implications, because if you are going to stand on the fact that Apostolic succession is the “viable” ordination process for Elders, and if that reality only exists in the Catholic Church, then by know means can you usurp that process by saying that since there is no Apostolic succession in the Biblical church, congregations now have the Apostolic authority to ordain Elders.
Msamu, something is wrong with that process and I’ve yet to find in the scriptures where congregations ordained Elders. I’m not saying that it doesn’t exist, but I haven’t seen it.
-Selah
I Ain’t Nobody!
Something else I pondered.
Msamu, if the Apostolic succession is broken and men are no longer called by God, how then are congregations formed? Does someone say… I think I’ll start a fellowship today! Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure there are plenty of churches that were started simply out of one’s desire. But where does the authority to start a fellowship come from if it’s the congregation that ordains such authority?
There is something wrong here… if the Biblical church has no Apostolic authority, how is it possible to ordain outside the Catholic Church?
Jus some more thoughts leakin’.
I Ain’t Nobody
Our authority unlike the Catholic Church comes from the scripture; scripture gives the body of Christ its authority, as we submit to the word of God, which can only be done by yielding to the Holy Spirit we are then submitting to the apostolic authority authorized and inspired by God. This I believe is the reason God took the word out of the hands of the so-called Catholic Church and put into the hands of ordinary man, since man cannot be trusted, each of us is responsible for working out our own salvation with fear and trembling. His word is true; all we have to do is follow the biblical mandate for leadership and the body will be blessed with inspired and Godly leaders that even the world will speak well of.
Thanks Lionel for a awesome article. I truely believe that most pastor’s/undershepherd’s out there are doing their best to lead the Lord’s sheep. It is a very difficult job and it is made harder by saints who are difficult to deal with. I have been pastoring for a little over a year now. I must say this has been the hardest year of my life. Hard on my marraige ,finances ,children you name it. I’m not whining just being real. I must also say that I feel blessed and humbled that the Lord would allow me to serve His people.Even with it’s many difficulties I love what I was called to do.
Lionel, thank you for encouraging the saints here to love, honor and respect their pastors. I am so glad you didn’t allow a few foolish pastors to completely discourage you.
I don’t get Msamu he has no biblical legs to stand on.I have had this coversation with him on another site. Your my brother Msamu but just give it up.
Pastor J you said:
I have been pastoring for a little over a year now. I must say this has been the hardest year of my life. Hard on my marraige ,finances ,children you name it. I’m not whining just being real. I must also say that I feel blessed and humbled that the Lord would allow me to serve His people.
Brother remain faithful please. We need man faithful to the text, faithful to holiness, and faithful to proclaim the excellencies of Christ without shrinking back due to the pressure to be “relevant” or to be “liked”. Give us what we need not what we like. Vegetables and the Meat! God bless you Sir and thanks for your commitment and I will like you to thank your family for bearing this ministry with you! It takes a strong woman!
JCrep32: Give what up, scripture, nonsense, hay how did you get ordained? did you get that warm and fuzzy feeling late one nite? are you meeting the mandates??
I have been enjoying the discussion between DJ and Msamu also. Keep it going fellas.
I appreciate what msamu has presented, but there’s really nothing more to be gained through our discussion.
I Ain’t Nobody!
Msamu, I fear the Lord ,better yet I am terrified of Him. I am so accountable to Him .Believe me brah no warm fuzzies led me to serve Him and His people as a pastor. I wouldn’t dare do this if not directed to by Him or if I did not meet the biblical qualifications.So you see I don’t feel compelled to justify my ordination to you. Msamu I got love for you brother we just disagree.
Lionel, thanks for your kind words and I would appreciate your prayers as well.
JCrep32: but you should justify your “so called calling” to me (the me being your congregation) the qualifications required is the validation of your call Brah, the congregation or a council of elders must confirm that you are indeed qualified. Take a questionnaire, put the qualifications on it and see how you rate if you rate low then your call cannot possibly be of God but of yourself, if you comply with all the qualification then of course your call is valid. or is “God alled me” all you need, forget scripture?