Through my wonderful journey since the Lord Jesus Christ drug(John 6:44) me to Himself I have been pushed further away from ministering to a certain type of people simply based on their race. I see many people who get excited when we get the “First Black Person” to do this or to do that and we as a “black people” take it as a personal badge of honor as if that person alone represents our entire race. In retrospect I think this type of thinking is ignorant and not that of a follower of Christ. I see so many black and reformed men who rely heavily on the works of great men like Saint Augustine who was a philosopher and theologian, and was bishop of the North African city of Hippo Regius for the last third of his life. Augustine is one of the most important figures in the development of Western Christianity, and is considered to be one of the church fathers. I have had a hard time getting an answer to the question, “Was he a Black Man?” as if it would matter when it comes to Christ finishing the work He began in me.(Phil 1:6)
What bothers me at times is that the fact that some hold to the teachings of Calvin, Luther, Edwards, Wesley and so many others, then they crucify these men for having African slaves and in the same breath gleam so much from their writings, insights, and revelation concerning the Word of God. The fact that these men had sin in their lives does not nullify what they have learned through the regeneration of the Holy Spirit. If so, we would all be disqualified on that scale, even today as we stand upon the shoulders of giants. To make matters worse, they highly esteem people like Martin(Michael) Luther King Jr., Malcolm(X)Little, and a slew of others who were not Christians by any stretch of the wildest imagination(Please do some research on this before trying to stand behind these non-Christians). Somehow they get a “Get by Free Card” based on the color of their skin and not by the doctrine they teach. I really had to wrestle with some questions before coming to this particular stance. Some of the questions were:
1) Has Christ called us to preach to a certain group or to preach and teach the gospel to all people regardless of race, age, and gender?
2) Has Christ told us whom He has willed to save? Or in other words do we as mortals know who His elect are?
3) How is black history going to help me share the gospel of Christ?
Difficult questions. Let me say that I appreciate what all African Americans have done in the past to give me the freedoms that I possess today. The question is, “Do I feel indebted to a group of people for the sacrifices that God has sovereignly chosen them to go through?” NO!! I am thankful but surely am not indebted to give praises to men but rather God. I catch a lot of flack from many people of all races simply because I don’t vote(uh oh!!) and I can’t find a scripture that commands me to do so. To get back to the topic let us look at Joseph’s view of God’s sovereignty in retrospect of his trial.
Genesis 45:5 Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life.
Genesis 45:7 And God sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance. So now [it was] not you [that] sent me hither, but God: and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.
I would encourage you to read this story through about Joseph see how he has a brilliant view of the hand of God over every situation. Joseph could have easily blamed his brothers and would have been right by doing so; but he seen the sovereign work of God in this. I guess the question would be how sovereign is God? Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
I believe black history is important to all people but it is dwarfed when compared to knowing church history. When I was a young man I could tell you all about many of the highly esteemed blacks of our day and the of the past but could not tell you about the Council of Nicea or the Jerusalem Council(Acts 15). What good does it do anyone to know about the black history and to not know about church history? Which is more important? Generally we have a lot of black churches specializing in black history month and are totally ignorant of Biblical or church history. What is the result? Humanism, Black Pride, Separatism, and Prejudice disguised as false racial love.
Now to fast forward to the New Covenant, has God chosen a people set apart for Himself? Well of course He has and those people are followers of Christ-Christians. Christ has commanded us to Go ye therefore, and teach all nations(ethnos), baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. No one will argue with the great commission that was given for all believers to carry out and not to be limited by a particular race. We as humans were all brothers and sisters linked together by Adam and lost in our sins and trespasses. Once Christ came(Gal 4:4), we then are part of the family of God linked together by Our Redeemer-Christ Jesus. So now we no longer see the black people as “our people” but we now see the famous colloquialism as a term that describes the family of God in Christ.
In conclusion one might say that it is important that blacks see other positive black people in order to be motivated. I would differ. We see black men and women aspiring to be like Michael Jordan, Oprah Winfrey, Obama, Colin Powell, and many others but if they die without Christ they too will go to hell. So my question is what really matters? Time out for the superficial racial hype dressed as a wolf in sheep’s clothing which screams… pride!! pride!! pride!!! Time to put Christ at the forefront of our everything meaning that we completely lose our everything in Christ. Furthermore meaning if we are going to esteem people let us check and see if they really have the heart of Christ in all that they do. We emulate Christ to all the world to see the love of Christ and in this they will know that we are His disciples.
Tyris you said:
“In conclusion one might say that it is important that blacks see other positive black people in order to be motivated. I would differ. We see black men and women aspiring to be like Michael Jordan, Oprah Winfrey, Obama, Colin Powell, and many others but if they die without Christ they too will go to hell. So my question is what really matters? Time out for the superficial racial hype dressed as a wolf in sheep’s clothing which screams… pride!! pride!! pride!!! Time to put Christ at the forefront of our everything meaning that we completely lose our everything in Christ. Furthermore meaning if we are going to esteem people let us check and see if they really have the heart of Christ in all that they do. We emulate Christ to all the world to see the love of Christ and in this they will know that we are His disciples.”
Let me say that I disagree and agree. I will explain why.
disagree: I believe all history is important, especially black history. Typically black men and women are painted as loud mouth, sex crazed, unintellectual, neck rolling, rapping and dancing bufoons. Very rarely is their a black man protrayed as a productive citizen. Very rarely is a black woman ever protrayed as anything other than a neck rolling, hussy who has kids out of wedlock and rely on someone else to take care of her. Black relationships are portrayed as a no good black man who loves his main girl but sleeps around with other women and the women say “that is just the way it is”.
Next when history is taught in this nation men like” Franklin, Lincoln, Newton, Adams, Eistien, Wright Brothers, Bell, Rosevelt (spelling), Ford, and other white man are pushed into the category of the greatest man to ever walk the earth, versus individuals such as: Malcom, King, Garvey, Dubois, Carver, Douglas, Tubman, Wheatley, Angelou, and other such figures are ingnored, but they were just as instrumental in shaping the face of this great nation that we reside in.
Agree: Though the great black man and women I mentioned should inspire us, they also should not be ends of themselves. We can celebrate their contributions, but our ultimate MAN IS CHRIST. Even as it relates to church history, these men and women had flaws and we should be quick to point them out as we would point out the flaws of David, Jacob, Abraham, Peter, Paul, and Joseph. The flaws of these men are listed in the bible to show the supremacy of Christ. He is our only hope, not white history, not black history. As we see some parents more concerned with their children celebrating MLK day versus celebrating Christ we have lost everything. If we give biographies to our children but they don’t understand the scriptures we have lost everything.
Finally if our kids esteem these men and women for their sacrifice but miss the sacrfice made by the Lamb of God to bear the sins of His elect, everything is as gold covered dung! I will first teach my children who Christ is and their responsiblity to respond to the Gospel, but I will also let them know their ancestors and their contributions to this nation and contributions to equal rights and the abolishment of the most henious slavery seen to mankind. Lets not esteem these men and women above Christ, but let us not ignore their contributions either.
Great Article my brother which should make for good discussion.
Good point b and r-I agree in totality with your “agreements” and “disagreements”.
However, I cannot agree with the concept of original posting. But, we all have the right to our opinions.
As an African American woman, I do not accept the teachings of the “slave masters” for the same reason many do not respect the teachings of Jakes, Dollar, etc. I have never read anything by some of the authors listed, and never intend to for no other reason that they owned slaves.
Thus, slaveholding is a major disqualifier as there are mounds and mounds of literature that has been written over the years whereas it is very easy to ignore these slave holding people, who in my book, (and other historical accounts that are both factual and accurate) were the “first” pulpit pimps in America.
Anybody care to argue that a slave holder is not a pimp???
What I have always failed to understand is how is it that the sin in their lives is justified but the sin in lives of current day “so-called” pimps is not? If God was soveriegn during slavery, is He not the same today in regards to the church? If He is, why do we spend so much time tyring to “fix” things in the church today through attack when God is and always will be in control?
Somebody please help me understand why sin “yesterday” is any different from “sin” today? Secondly, I need to know how we get to pick and choose which type of sin is acceptable to the point where is becomes “paramount” and we decide to follow the teachings.
In conclusion, Righter is glad there is an African American History month and thoroughly enjoys it. Actually, I enjoy it all year long…
Righter,
My sister, are you comparing false teachings that blind people from the truth of Christ (a la Jakes, Dollar, Price, Copeland, White, Meyers, etc.) with following correct doctrine taught by those who have sin in their lives?
False doctrine should not be listened to even if the person lives an exemplery lifestlye. For example Mormons, JW’s, and others live great moral lives publicly but their doctrine is false. No one should follow their teachings. Even if Calvin owned slaves, it does not negate what he taught or the insights that he had into biblical doctrine.
The Word Of Faithers have horrible doctrine AND horrible lifelstyles. (for the most part) That’s a huge difference.
Have you read the accounts of slavery where the slaves said that they were treated like family? (Just like God instructed the Israelites to do to their slaves in Leviticus 25:39-55)
False prophets are worse than slave owners in my estimation.
Hey b and r,
Slave masters who used the Bible to justify slavery (and they all did) are in indeed false teachers. As such, the teachings of the slave holders had to be false, based on this, which I believe provides me with enough reasoning to stay away from anything that they have written.
Moreover, I believe I can get to Heaven without the help of Johnathan Edwards and other, who I hoping is resting in peace…Thus, I simply do not read what he and others have had to say because it simply does not interest me.
I do not agree with the lines of distinction that are drawn between the former and the present. As far as I can see, the Jakes, Dollars, slavemasters are all in the same bunch.
Some question the salvation of current day preachers/teachers-I go a step further and question the salvation of the slave holders. Of course, none of us knows for sure about anyone, but-we can all wonder.
Don’t get me wrong, I have no qualms with you and others because of your beliefs and what in what you respect, it’s just not for me.
Thanks for the dialog
PS: Were the slaveholders pimps?
I am sorry BLD,
I mistakenly called you b and r, please accept my sincere apologies.
b and r, I apologize to you as well for the oversight which was indeed unintentional
No problem Righter, I knew what you meant, I am just following the conversation.
Don’t worry Righter. I consider it a compliment to be mistaken with B&R.
b and r and BLD
I have much respet for the both of you–:-)
Righter,
I do consider the slave owners pimps in the natural sense but the false prophets are pimps in the spiritual sense. That’s the distinction that I am making.
Now I will say something very controversial. You will not find a lot of biblical support for calling owning slaves a sin. It’s the treatment of the slaves that is addressed, for the most part, in the scriptures. Check out Leviticus as I mentioned earlier, Ephesians 6, and the book of Philemon.
Now, do you have a record of the way in which Calvin, Edwards, or any of the others treated their slaves?
Thanks BLD.
I on the other hand believe that false teaching occured by using Christianity to justify slavery. I see that you try to justify the treatment as slaves (good versus bad) which means that we start out from jumpstreet on two different tangents.
I hold tight to the belief that there is no such thing as “good” slavery. Thus, the entire institution was morally wrong because for one, it promoted superiority and number two, people were mistreated whether it be physical or mental.
How do you think it feels to be sold? If a slaveholder did nothing but buy and sell slaves, was he right? I mean, he ain’t never beat nobody but I am sure that the “sold one” had some psychological damage.
I will also say something controverisal by saying that you will not find a lot of Biblical support for what occured in America either. If so, please provide references that can justify the American slave trade, from start to finish, leaving no stone unturned. I am especially interested in knowing how one race (Europeans) came to the conclusion that it was superior over the other and as such, had the right to enslave people.
I will say that I have never found anything to support this which always leaves me at somewhat of an advantage because my points are irrefutable! lol
But as for the reference that you asked me-please reveiw the link below.
http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/mhr/4/minkema.html
In conclusion, I believe that when one comes to believe that they have the “right” to own another human being, (which is arguable because slave holders believed that slaves were not human), then these individuals are not only usurping the authority of God, but are “thinking more highly of themselves than they ought”.
Very Un-Christian, indeed…
I hear a lot of talking about how arrogant current day preachers are and I most certainly do not disgaree. However, I also make assertion that those who have ever believed in superiority, (white, black and grey) which is only imaginary by the way, are arrogant to the utmost..
Thanks again for the dialog, this is getting real good–:-)
Righter,
I know this to be one of the most emotionally charged subjects in the world, if not the most emotional. But for a moment, let’s try and take the emotion out of the discussion and actually look at the what the other is saying. I’ll take your comments one by one and hopefully we’ll see if that can be accomplished.
(R) I on the other hand believe that false teaching occured by using Christianity to justify slavery. I see that you try to justify the treatment as slaves (good versus bad) which means that we start out from jumpstreet on two different tangents.
(BLD) There is no doubt that the bible or “Christianity” was used against the slaves, by the slavemasters, to curb rebellion. Here we agree. However, I reject the charge that I am trying to justify anything. I am pointing out to you, and challenging you to prove otherwise, that the bible does not forbid slavery. The bible forbids ill treatment of slaves. You could have argued that the slavery in the bible is not the same as that in America or that the slavery in America was the type that the bible forbade. That may have had more weight. But again, I would challenge you to use the bible to call slavery in general a moral wrong.
(R) I hold tight to the belief that there is no such thing as “good” slavery. Thus, the entire institution was morally wrong because for one, it promoted superiority and number two, people were mistreated whether it be physical or mental
(BLD) Perhaps you do hold tightly to that belief but as a Christian you should have no problem providing biblical support for your assertion. That is unless you are talking about the slavery in America specifically. That would only require an appeal to history. That would also present it’s on challenge given that many slaves gave evidence in testimonials that they were well treated. And even when freedom came, many did not leave. Here I am only challenging your generalizations.
(R) How do you think it feels to be sold? If a slaveholder did nothing but buy and sell slaves, was he right? I mean, he ain’t never beat nobody but I am sure that the “sold one” had some psychological damage.
(BLD) I’m not sure how either of these questions help to prove that “slavery” is immoral. Again these are isolated situations that you are using, but you generalized about slavery. You wouldn’t (and shouldn’t) allow this type of argumentation from someone trying to generalize about blacks, women, Christians, or anything else by simply pointing out instances of wrong behavior.
(R)
Sorry everybody, I hit the send button by accident. Here’s the rest of my post:
(R) I will also say something controverisal by saying that you will not find a lot of Biblical support for what occured in America either. If so, please provide references that can justify the American slave trade, from start to finish, leaving no stone unturned. I am especially interested in knowing how one race (Europeans) came to the conclusion that it was superior over the other and as such, had the right to enslave people. I will say that I have never found anything to support this which always leaves me at somewhat of an advantage because my points are irrefutable! lol
(BLD) Here’s your best statement. This is in my opinion inarguable. But it does not allow you to come to the conclusion that “slavery” is immoral. Also, it can be shown that not all of the cases of slavery in America fit into the “bad” column. (slavery in the Carribean is another story) The belief in the superiority of one race over another is a result of sin not the bible.
(R) In conclusion, I believe that when one comes to believe that they have the “right” to own another human being, (which is arguable because slave holders believed that slaves were not human), then these individuals are not only usurping the authority of God, but are “thinking more highly of themselves than they ought”. Very Un-Christian, indeed…
(BLD) I agree in the correct circumstances. Here’s what I mean: Anyone who believes that they have a right to own someone who is not indebted to them is guilty of thinking more highly of themselves than they ought. Hence the slavery in the bible where, for the most part, there was a circumstance of indebtedness.
(R) I hear a lot of talking about how arrogant current day preachers are and I most certainly do not disgaree. However, I also make assertion that those who have ever believed in superiority, (white, black and grey) which is only imaginary by the way, are arrogant to the utmost..
(BLD) You’ll get no argument out of me there.
Even though we sort of got off on a tangent let me say that I was only challenging your reasoning for not reading certain authors as it pertains to theology. You are in no way required to read any of them. Nor would I say that you are missing something because you don’t. That would be hypocritical on my part because I don’t read them either. In my opinion, doctrine should be judged by what it says and not be who is teaching it. The teacher themselves should be judged first by the content of their teaching and secondarily by their lifestyle. In the case of these men, you can learn a lot from them without implicitly or explicitly supporting their lifestyles. The same can’t be said for the Word of Faith teachers.
not be who is teaching it.
That should say “not by who is teaching it”. Wow.
Hey Guys,
Good topic here. Jesus Christ himself never opposed slavery. Slavery can not be viewed as immoral, as it is mentioned and supported by God throughout the Bible. So, if you guys ever get to witness a slave master beating their slave, advise them not to beat the slave to death, because then and only then will it be considered a sin. Don’t believe me… well check out Exodus 21:20-21. These are God’s words not mine. Check-out what Jesus says in Matthew 10:24-25. According to this, A slave is never above his master. As a matter of fact, the Slave should try to be like their master. The whites whom read this, understood it clearly, simply because the dark man/black man is not mentioned in the bible as being human, or anything else for that matter. Come on Christians, you gotta think!!! Christians know for a fact, that Jesus is God. So if you are ever in a position to stop slavery, rape, genocide and/or murder, ask yourselves, What would Jesus/God do? According to the Bible, i.e. the Word of God, Jesus/God would do nothing less than condone such activities. If I have offended anyone, please know that the scriptures fully support my statements here. Be Blessed.
Ok Lionel I hear you but why not make January Hispanic History month or March Native American History month? Lots of people have struggled to the point that may far exceed that of slavery for all we know. It may not be as much quantitatively but who knows. I think if we do for some we have to do for all. I honestly have not seen nor do I see the fruit of this month when it comes to black history. How does it bring us to Christ likeness. Yes all history is important but I just am looking to see how this has pushed anyone closer to Christ. The black church for the most part is a result of slavery, he music, the shouting, and many other things. Perseverance does push some people to he Cross but once again I just don’t see the fruit or benefit in this celebration year after year. Especially when we turn on BET and see silly beyonce singing about it and so many others. I guess while i was in college I did learn about Black history as a extra curricular course and was made to take american history without choice but either way neither one of them has made me more CHRIST like. Just my thoughts on the issue.
Hey Bld,
Thanks for the response; I’ll respond in kind
(BLD) There is no doubt that the bible or “Christianity” was used against the slaves, by the slavemasters, to curb rebellion. Here we agree. However, I reject the charge that I am trying to justify anything. I am pointing out to you, and challenging you to prove otherwise, that the bible does not forbid slavery. The bible forbids ill treatment of slaves. You could have argued that the slavery in the bible is not the same as that in America or that the slavery in America was the type that the bible forbade. That may have had more weight. But again, I would challenge you to use the bible to call slavery in general a moral wrong.
Righter: I disagree that I “should” have argued what you stated for I do have the right to take any stance that I choose. The disagreement comes in when I fail to prove my stance. As such, I hold firm to my original argument that the Bible does not lay out a roadmap or set of instructions that would give Europeans the right to go into a country (any) and enslave people.
This is and will continue to be my argument BLD, and I need you tell me how preaching slaveholders came to the conclusion that they had the right to own other humans. I for one believe that the committed sin and crimes against humanity by even “thinking” they had the right to do it. And to make matters worse, the formed weak arguments by doing what you did, provide examples of slavery from the Bible which had absolutely nothing to do with Europre or America!! But, I am glad you didn’t come with the “Ham’s curse” line–:-)
Please provide me with a logical explanation of:
1. What gave the European the right to go into another country for slaves? Does the Bible provide specific directives?
2. Does the Bible specifically tell the European that he was superior to the African? If so, how? If not, how in the “hell” did he/she come up with that “heresy”???
(BLD) Perhaps you do hold tightly to that belief but as a Christian you should have no problem providing biblical support for your assertion. That is unless you are talking about the slavery in America specifically. That would only require an appeal to history. That would also present it’s on challenge given that many slaves gave evidence in testimonials that they were well treated. And even when freedom came, many did not leave. Here I am only challenging your generalizations.
Righter: Come on now BLD, you have got to do better than that as the topic of discussion is African American History. I hold that your boy, Johnathon Edwards, is just a bad as any modern day preacher because he considered himself in a superior fashion and owned slaves. As such, I remain unmoved…
(BLD) I’m not sure how either of these questions help to prove that “slavery” is immoral. Again these are isolated situations that you are using, but you generalized about slavery. You wouldn’t (and shouldn’t) allow this type of argumentation from someone trying to generalize about blacks, women, Christians, or anything else by simply pointing out instances of wrong behavior.
Righter: Okay BLD, if the Bible supports slavery, why aren’t you volunteering to be one? Better still, why was the institution overturned? No generalization, it is simply wrong.
(BLD) Here’s your best statement. This is in my opinion inarguable. But it does not allow you to come to the conclusion that “slavery” is immoral. Also, it can be shown that not all of the cases of slavery in America fit into the “bad” column. (slavery in the Carribean is another story) The belief in the superiority of one race over another is a result of sin not the bible.
Righter: It is morally and spiritually wrong to have a superior mindset that states one group of people can enslave the other. The only superior being is God and I take issue with any group of people that says they are superior for this to me signals the “little god” mentality that Creflo and other speaks of.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28)26
(BLD) I agree in the correct circumstances. Here’s what I mean: Anyone who believes that they have a right to own someone who is not indebted to them is guilty of thinking more highly of themselves than they ought. Hence the slavery in the bible where, for the most part, there was a circumstance of indebtedness.
Righter: Now we’re cooking BLD–:-) How did the European come to the conclusion that he/she could enslave people? Did he “assume” a Biblical (slaveholders) name, “assume” a Biblical occurrence and finally “assume” to role play to follow the exmaples that are provided in the Bible?
(BLD) You’ll get no argument out of me there.
Even though we sort of got off on a tangent let me say that I was only challenging your reasoning for not reading certain authors as it pertains to theology. You are in no way required to read any of them. Nor would I say that you are missing something because you don’t. That would be hypocritical on my part because I don’t read them either. In my opinion, doctrine should be judged by what it says and not be who is teaching it. The teacher themselves should be judged first by the content of their teaching and secondarily by their lifestyle. In the case of these men, you can learn a lot from them without implicitly or explicitly supporting their lifestyles. The same can’t be said for the Word of Faith teachers.
Righter: Righter concludes that anybody that got up anywhere and said they had the right to enslave people had to be mentally unstable. If the Bible says that man should not be in bondage and the Bible was fully available to the slaveholders, how did they come to place people in bondage? Moreover, anybody that used the Bible to justify slavery, (which American slavholders did), are guilty of heresy. The Bible does not tell the European to go to Africa to get “anything”, but historical accounts say that he/she used the Bible to justify this. As such, I see no difference between Johnathan Edwards and his slaveholding “boys” and the WOF.
There is absolutely nothing in there, other than examples of slavery in other countries that told slaveholders that they were:
1. Superior
2. To go get slaves
3. To buy and sell slaves as property
4. To distinguish which ones were “house” and which ones were “field”
I could go on and on, but I know that an intelligent brother like yourself gets the picture–:-)
Righter “almost” responded to Chuck, but decided not to go there because this is so typical…
Tyris, there are months that are dedicated to other cultures.
Tyris you said:
“I honestly have not seen nor do I see the fruit of this month when it comes to black history. How does it bring us to Christ likeness. Yes all history is important but I just am looking to see how this has pushed anyone closer to Christ.”
So what about playing basketball?
Working out?
Watching a Football Game?
Going Shopping?
Going to College?
Heck Going to School at all?
Washing my Car?
None of these things brings us to Christlikeness, that doesn’t negate that they are BENEFICIAL to believers. Learing Algerbra, Geometry, or Calculus doesn’t bring us to Christlikeness either. Are they benefical? Sure they are. None of the things I listed pushed anyone closer to Christ, but that doesn’t negate the contribution it makes to society. Black History month also doesn’t push me away from Christlikeness. There are reedemable qualities in Black History, White History, Chinese History, Basketball, Baseball, Football, Hockey, Rap, R&B, Country (yes even country) Jazz, Art, Dance, Theater, Movies, and all other sorts of things. Just because you don’t feel that they contribute to your walk or personal edification doesn’t mean it doesn’t for others. That is all I am saying.
Righter still doesn’t understand why she had to take Geometry…
Good morning b and r,
I’ll admit that I am “new kid” on the block as far as bloggation (lol) goes although I am probably the oldest–:-)
Nonetheless, I am learning about various sites that deal with Christianity from your blog and others like Pulpit Pimps. I recently came across an article on the Blaque Tulip site that I thought was very good as it provided a stance as to why the study of African American History and History in general is important.
With your permission, and Pastor Lance’s, I’ll post the link here.
http://blaquetulip.blogspot.com/2008/02/black-history-month.html
You have my permission to add anything by Pastor Lance. That is my East Coast homie!
Thanks b and r–:-)
Righter,
We seem to be arguing in circles and arguing apples and oranges. You are too emotionally attached to this issue to think clearly on it. By your reasoning, any sin in anyone’s life has to disqualify that individual from teaching anything concerning God. That would include you! You’ve made slavery the unforgivable sin, without biblical support. This is why you have yet to provide, from scripture, that slavery is itself immoral. You must differentiate between slavery in general and the specific situation in America.
Well, I would say that we’re going to have to agree to disagreee but that would imply that we were at least talking about the same things. We’re not. So let’s just end this right here. You may if you wish, of course, have the last word.
Righter,
On another note, did you actually read the article on the link that you provided? Most of the accusatory statements are prefaced with the words “may have” or “could have” or “might have”. That is hardly conclusive evidence. By the way did you miss these statements?:
“Surprisingly, Edwards was the first minister at Northampton to baptize blacks and admit them into full membership”
“Theoretically, full membership accorded equal status to blacks and whites as fellow Christians. In his published treatises on revivals, Edwards time and again pointed to black converts who, he declared, had been “vindicated into the glorious liberty of the children of God.”52 ”
“Edwards defended the traditional definition of slaves as those who were debtors, children of slaves, and war captives; for him, the trade in slaves born in North America remained legitimate. Here, however, Edwards’s argument took an unexpected turn. He asserted that condemning slave owning while ignoring the overseas slave trade, by which thousands were taken forcibly from Africa, was to condone “a far more cruel slavery than that which they object against in those that have slaves here.” Therefore, he opposed further incursions into Africa for new slaves, denying that “nations have any power or business to disfranchize all the nations of Africa.” If they did, this constituted “a greater encroachm[en]t on their liberties than even the opposers of this trade thems[elves] do suppose this trade.”61 Characteristically, Edwards crafted a stance that avoided what he saw as the excesses of the extremes.”
He was against Whites going into Africa to enslave africans. Did you read this?!
Cont.:
“As with previous and later defenders and opponents of slavery, Edwards gathered Scripture texts from both the Old and New Testaments to support his view. Certain texts undercut the Northfield brethren’s perspective and justified his own critique of the African slave trade.63 For example, he took exception to a narrow definition of “neighbor”—as in “Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself”—as limited only to those of the same religion and in close proximity, or to those identified typologically (and racially) as the new “children of Israel.” The provincial exceptionalism of his opponents, to Edwards’s way of thinking, gave license to God’s people to behave any way they wanted towards people of other nations and abrogated the moral law that believers, especially with the coming of Christ, were universally obliged to obey. For Edwards, this was a “blasphemous way of talking.” God may have given permission to the ancient Israelites to “borrow” from the Egyptians as a punishment for Egypt’s sins, but this could not be made into “an established rule in all cases.” “A special precept for a particular act,” Edwards asserted, “is not a rule.” Citing the Apostle Paul, Edwards stated that God “winked at” the ignorance of believers in “those times of darkness,” but, under the gospel, God “don’t wink at such things now.”64″
” For Belcher as for Whitefield, there was a proper and an improper sort of slave owning; enlightened masters and apologists such as themselves approached individual slaves, as well as slavery as a whole, as opportunities for Christian benevolence, while others merely wreaked brutality in order to maximize gain. 30
Edwards apparently shared Belcher’s and Whitefield’s attitudes about proper slave owning and what it meant to be a Christian master. He inscribed one revealing statement on the topic in his biblical commentary. The entry is extremely unusual on two counts: it is written in the first-person and it deals with the treatment of “servants.” Pondering Job 31:13–14, Edwards began by quoting the opening phrase but then subjectively paraphrased the rest of the passage:
If I despise the cause of my man or maidservant when they plead with me, and when they stand before me to be judged by me, what then shall I do when I come to stand before God to be judged by him? God may justly do by me as I do by my servant. If I despise my servant’s cause, how much more may God despise my cause? I am God’s servant as they are mine, and much more inferior to God than my servant is to me.70
Here Edwards laid out a moral code for the master-slave relationship in general. More intimately, he made a personal reflection on himself as a slave owner that acknowledged the problem of justice within that relationship. 31
Though Edwards strove to be what he defined as a just and Christian master, he did not widely criticize the moral and physical abuses that some slaves suffered at the hands of cruel masters. But neither could he keep totally silent about them.”
Now, I can’t use up all of this sites’ bandwith reprinting the entire article. But if this is your evidence as to why Jonathan Edwards should not be read or his theological thoughts considered, then I must say that it is poor evidence.
Hey BLD,
Thanks, I am used to the “emotion” argument which doesn’t fly with me, but thanks for the consistency nonetheless. I am a sociolinguist by trade and this is just what I fluently do…
I never said owning slaves was unforgivable, I said slaveholders taught heresy by stating they had the right to enslave and used the Bible to do so. I think that Jonathon Edwards name came into play by default.
Yes, I am differentiating slavery in general from slavery in the Bible (which you should too) because again, and please read the sign on the door, the topic of this discussion is “Is Black History Important?
You keep pushing your questions, which are already answered and started being answered with the abolitionists. Why was slavery deemed to be wrong in America? Better still, why aren’t you volunteering to be a slave since the Bible says it is “moral”???
However, you have failed to provide any scriptural support that would give the Europeans the right to enslave Africans, or anyone. So in essence, you never answered the question that asked how it is that Jonathon Edwards and the like could be considered “righteous” by preaching and teaching the things that they did. This is because there is “no” Biblical support for such foolishness and as such, they were simply “fools”…
There is absolutely no-thing in the Bible that would even remotely justify what the Europeans did, to include Jonathon Edwards. You are completing ignoring the fact that he taught that slavery was just and then turned around and owned slaves. Anyone in America that was/is charged with preaching/teaching that justifies slavery in American based upon the Biblical model of slavery is just a heretic. There can no analogy be drawn between American slaveholding and slaveholding in the Bible…
Thus, the conclusions that they came to only came about because of deranged thinking..
Once again, if the slave holding, wanna be teachers had full access to the Bible, how did they conclude that they were so superior that they were morally just to enslave others? This says that there are two levels of humanity with God of course being superior.
1. Slaveholder
2. Slave
I have never read in the Bible where humans were not considered to be humans but as property as American slaveholders did. In like manner, I have never read one scripture that said
“Go to African to steal, buy and steal slaves. Secondly, bring them back to use for whatever you purpose”.
My stance remains, slaveholders made “vain” attempts to justify slavery with the Bible, just as you have done.
It’s not a matter of having the last word but I’ll agree to end the discussion with you.
I am sorry BLD but your assertions have all got to be negated.
Once again, thanks for the dialog.
Edwards lived and preached that it was right for Americans to own slaves and used the Bible to do so.
Heretical…
Hit the send button Bld before I finished, sorry.
No need to reprint anything as I was not trying to conceal anything which is why I listed the link!!!
He was just like the JW and Mormons-who all do good things!
I never said the man did not do good deeds-I said he did enough “against” true Christianity to cause myself and countless others to dismiss him as fake and whimsy.
Moreover, who was he to establish “conditions” that applied to slavery? He was self righteous and ignorant..
15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. 16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth
Is he, or is he not–for superior vs inferior living? Does he or does he not treat humans like property and not as equals?
You noticed how the article provided proof that he “flip-flopped???
If what is taught is unbiblical, then the actions of an American slaveholder is most certainly because if you recall, American is not listed in the Bible but the Bible was used by slaveholders to justify the profit making institution
Follow?
Righter you typed:
“I am a sociolinguist by trade and this is just what I fluently do…”
That wouldn’t happen to be a statement of superiority would it? Do I smell a little hypocrisy?
No–it simply says that I do not write out of emotion-I do it for a living
yes lionel there are lots of benefits but why not celebrate other cultures for a whole month? Why just black history month? I personally think it is absolutely pointless, just me though. Geometry and algebra are necessities for some people to make their living. Black history is not a neccesity for anyone. 2 black boys and only one knows about black history-which will be more successful according to Christ, if they know HIM? Both I think, the other will not be lacking because he does not know or celebrate black history month. So many benefits yes, but we can serve accolades to everyone every time we do something. For example when I see a stop light-If i know a black man made it, I say WOW a black man made the stop light-woo hoo. Or when I see something else a hispanic man made- i say woo hoo. A hispanic man made that. I am being funny here but I hope you catch my point. What I am getting at is yes there are benefits from all the things you listed and they might help someone in some way but I think when we go that route we start to get into humanism. But I am not for Black history month no more than I am for any culture having a month totally dedicated to a particular race. I think it is very impartial. If we do it for some, it should also be done for all. Just my thoughts on the issue.
Tyris, others
I really do feel that Black history is more important than any of us realize. When you look at how Blacks started out in this country (as slaves), I think you have to thank God for the current circumstances. The great action here, is trying to link Black History with Christianity. When you look at the story of Jesus and see the many miracles that he performed, you must know that they were miracles only because those acts had never been performed. He turned water into wine… he touched the blind and gave sight. Those acts are not so miraculous today because they are being performed almost daily by individuals. Though I am not a Christian, I see the story of Christ as a gift from God. During his short stay on earth, he simply did things that others had never seen done, or simply thought was not possible. Most of all, Jesus provided an everlasting hope and an example. Now fast forward to SoJourner Truth, Fredrick Douglas, Dr. King, Malcom X, Michael Jordan, Barak Obama. These are all Individuals that performed acts that had never been done before and provided a hope that was lost… just like the actions of Christ. Now, what is so signifigant is their heritage. Heritage wise, all Blacks went from nothing to something. Growing up where I did, we were always told that most of us (blacks) will be nothing. I’m sure Lionel will agree with me there. But, as a child growing up surrounded by hopelessness, I can understand why it is so easy for inner-city blacks to not strive for anything. So this is where Black History gains importance. When we look at the many ways blacks have increased this country, we cannot ignore that these great inventions, deeds, and actions were done by someone just like us. Another aspect of the importance of Black History is the fact that we are a culture, without a heritage. Our heritage is still being created as we speak. Most of us cannot search beyond Slavery to find our true blood-lines. So if you look at Black History with a shallow point of view, you will not see the importance. However, I can only hope that you allow yourself to embrace Black History and become apart of it. Black and Reformed Ministries is a good start.
What is up Mr. Chuck. Is this your new alias charles? LOL. You said it best when you said, ”
When you look at how Blacks started out in this country (as slaves), I think you have to thank God for the current circumstances. I am pointing to GOD and Him alone when I think about black history. Man recieves no glory. All glory goes to God alone. We are ok there. THis statement is self defeating, ”
Though I am not a Christian, I see the story of Christ as a gift from God. If Christ is not who He said he was how can He be a gift from God? That would make God a lie because he would have sent a lying gift who proclaimed to be God in essence and to be sinless in nature. There is no one and has never been noone and will never be noone that has done the miracles that Christ has done. They are not being done everyday by anyone we know. Maybe off in the jungle somewhere but we have never seen the miracles that Christ has done in our day. I am not a Cessansionist but I have never seen a armless person’s arm grow back from nothing and neither have you. I don’t think we have the liberty to put Obama(LOL) in the category of the people you listed like X, King and others, but then again maybe you do if they are apart from Christ as well. There may have been hopelessness where you and Lionel grew up and there is hopelessness all around the world bro. What about the white folk, hispanic folk, asain folk who grew up in the hood or in the hillbillies of Wyoming or montana and also had hopelessness? Or what about the white folks who had hope all around them and still went to prison for drugs? Whether if the people who have hope or those who do not have hope-God is still sovereign and if He wills for a person to get out of there circumstance-they will get out and get hope that comes from Christ-not this world.
Just to clarify the intent of Black and Reformed ministries is NOT to embrace of tear down black history! It’s intent is clear-and that is to build up the body of CHRIST who is only connected by the blood and finished work of the cross for all the Elect. So I am not into the whole for “blacks only thing.” I want to see from all the four corners of the earth-GOD’S family brought in. We just happen to be black and reformed but we desire to see Christ exalted and his people linked up with true bodies of Christ. We are once again to clarify seeking to draw all people to Christ regardless of culture, we do see that black people and reformed theology is far and few between so this is a good title to draw them and so much more to a Biblical CHristian worldview. Once again to clarify I personally see Black history as pointless in its current state(maybe the intentions were good and not stenched in humanistic theology or man exaltation) but I am not going to hate on others for celebrating it. My son will first and foremost know about Church and Christian history and all else is secondary to Christ. HE will know the neccesities to life as Lionel mentioned science math and all that stuff to help him live as he becomes a man, but he can do this without black history. I will teach him about all history including black but my point is that he does not need it to survive in this world. God Bless
Here are some good questions posted on my other site by a person named cop. check’em out
Yes it is good to know our hisory, and how blacks have slowly come out of slavery to become (no disrespect) everyday people.
Blacks have had many first as of lately. (etc. coached in a Super bowl, won movie awards, running and maybe becoming President) But these people dont achieve these feats to become the first BLACK TO DO SO. They do it to be the best in their craft.
How come other races dont have their own month of history. Why are blacks privillaged to have a month reserved just for them/us?
I’ve been called a sellout, and Iam not black enough because I go to a church that doesnt have a majority black presents or play black gospel artist music regularly.
Does God teach his word different depending on the race, does he view each race thru different eyes. People may prefer worshipping with their own race but that doesnt make you a better man/women of God.
Question: If Jesus were to come back today would he have to chose between going to a white church or black church? And how disrespectful are both BLACKS AND WHITES to totally disregard other races.
I get rather offended at the media in covering politics, when they refer to “THE BLACK VOTE”. As if every black person thinks and votes the same. Like we all have some group meeting and say, “Ok, who are black people going to vote for this year?”
Tyris,
For some reason you had read my thoughts with 100% opposition. Because of this you have completely missed key points that I made
Though I am not a Christian, I see the story of Christ as a gift from God. These means that though I am not a Christian, I still do see the STORY as a gift from God.
You Said …”I don’t think we have the liberty to put Obama(LOL) in the category of the people you listed like X, King and others, but then again maybe you do if they are apart from Christ as well.
Well why not, name another Black person that has been in the position that Barak Obama is currently in to possibly become the Democratic candidate in the Presidential Election. He has already made history by making manifest the possibility of being the Democratic front runner. Also, take a look at the people who are supporting him, Hint: they are not all Black.
“>>>These are all Individuals that performed acts that had never been done before and provided a hope that was lost…”
You said:
What about the white folk, hispanic folk, asain folk who grew up in the hood or in the hillbillies of Wyoming or montana and also had hopelessness? Or what about the white folks who had hope all around them and still went to prison for drugs?
Tyris… the topic here is “BLACK HISTORY”. Your title asks, “Is Black History Important?”
You Said:
Just to clarify the intent of Black and Reformed ministries is NOT to embrace of tear down black history! It’s intent is clear-and that is to build up the body of CHRIST who is only connected by the blood and finished work of the cross for all the Elect.
Tyris, what if the intentions of Black and Reformed Ministries are prolific? The mere fact that it was created by a Black Person will make it apart of Black History.
Tyris,
There is nothing wrong with celebrating your heritage. You should be excited to know that you, yourself could become a part of this heritage/history. Black history is not a racial faction. It is a discovery, a monumental ingredient and a core building block that adds to the foundation of a new heritage that was taken from a people, by force and against their will… by whites. Do you think they don’t see you as a black before they see you as a Christian?
Blacks have had many first as of lately….They do it to be the best in their craft. Oh how right you are. These blacks came from nothing… to something. Now, think about that for a moment. Even when we were freed as a people, we were only considered 3/5’s human… But through the struggles of time, we are now a respected body of people. How can you not be proud of this? Do you believe this was achieved without the Grace of God? I’m glad you won’t hate others from Celebrating Black History, but you should really take another look at yourself. You think that by going to a predominantly white church that you are excluded from the baggage of your race. Is this why you down the Black Church so much? You think that all the shouting, visual praises, dancing and jumping around are not God’s way. Well Tyris, when you look at our motherland (Africa) and view their rituals… what do you see? You see shouting and visual praises and dancing and jumping around. They have always celebrated and praised like this, even before the Bible existed. Why is this? Now, all of a sudden, you have been taught that your people are doing it wrong. Tyris, you are not a sellout… you been sold. The truth will reveal itself to you and you will not be able to handle it. This is coming from a non-Christian.
Righter is reading backwards because I am visiting my daughter this weekend at her college. And guess what? I went to a Black Voices concert last night that is comprised of students from the University of Virginia at University Baptist Church. The choir consisted of those that were black, white, Korean, and “whatever”! And you know what, they all sung beautifully!!
It is especially important to note that I was touched by a praise dance that was done by a Korean student, who did an excellent job. I say this because several years ago, I had the opportunity to teach a white student named Lindsey, who was graduating that year. She was a Christian missionary that had traveled abroad during the formulative years of her life and during her senior year, she did a praise dance in honor of Black History month at a program that was held at our school.
Now for those of you who are legalistic, I consider “good” praise dancing to merely be “modern dance”, which is an acceptable art form if it is indeed done as it should be, with tact. Nonetheless, I will say that I have “never” witnessed so much beauty in my life as I watched this girl “glide” in natural procession as if this is what she was simply made to do. I sat in that auditorium with my class and cried until my faced swelled!! Of course, my class joked me but hey, Righter does have a soft side! Lol
Righter had never witnessed such powerful expression before or after this experience and I have been “around”…
Sadly, Lindsey was killed the next year during her first year of college at Old Dominion University while driving to school. It is said that she was tired and quite possibly fell asleep at the wheel not far from her home in Suffolk, VA and ran into an 18-wheeler. She fought a good fight, but the injuries were too much for her to bear and she passed away a short time later.
I attended her funeral that was well attended by various dignitaries and school system employees who had all been touched by this child. Shown during the funeral were video clips from her many missionary trips to spread the Gospel in underdeveloped nations.
Thus, I conclude and there is no way to tell, that this child came to earth to show the beauty of God through dance and I am so happy that I was blessed to witness it. If there are such things as angels in human form, I will say that I believe that I could have possibly seen one and only one to my knowledge in my 46 years and her name was Lindsey, who to all of my critics, was white, which really had no bearing on anything for she was a wonderful and truly special human being….
In conclusion, African American history and all history for that matter is good for everyone…And one more thing, it doesn’t matter what the color the person is that is doing the presentation–:-)
I am certain that there are opportunities for me to respond further up. As such, I ask for your patience and will respond to any and all comments once I return to MD on tomorrow night.
However, I had to take 5 minutes to say, “why did I know that Chuck was not a Christian from his very first post???
Have a great weekend everyone and although this conversation is somewhat heated, it is nonethless healthy dialog which, next to collard greens and yams, is good for the soul–:-)
Gm Tyris,
Righter apologizes for the delay in response but I am somewhat behind on reading.
However, I think that it is important to note that other cultures do indeed celebrate their cultures and I have included a link which has a diverse range.
http://www.kqed.org/topics/history/heritage/
In addition, you stated that people do not need Black history to make a living, but Algebra and Geometry are needed by some people. This is a balnket statement because there are various African American history, literature, etc. programs through out the United States that are offered at highly accredited universities. Thus, “some” people, including myself, have benefitted from these programs and do indeed make a living from them.
Because the number of programs are so vast, I have taken the opportunity to list a link to a Google page:
http://www.google.com/search?
hl=en&rlz=1T4SUNA_enUS249US249&q=doctoral+programs+in+african+american+history#
As such, there are a lot of highly educated people who are not Black who feel that African American History is indeed important. If it were not, the Ivy league schools would not even touch it…
I have said this to say that you are justified in not thinking it is important because it is your right, but there are a lot of us who do.
In conclusion, Righter respects your stance
I just read your post Chuck and I think you made some excellent points in regards to AA history
Chuck,
I read your last post with great understanding of your views.
Sadly, most of us have been sold and we can all find something in our lives that we are ashamed of because we have been “brainwashed” into thinking that it is automatically wrong if it concerns us.
Yes, we as a people have indeed been bamboozled which ironically, means that Black History is important.
You people are so SAD to believe that Christians cannot learn from non-Christians. How prideful and unbiblical!!!!!!!
I don’t know if you will post again; however, who said that Christians can’t learn from non-christians. I went to a non-christian elementry, middle, jr. high, High school and college. I learn a bunch from non-christians. So you may be mistaken. Take care.