A Better Covenant

Posted in Christian Living, Reformed Perspective, Theology Applied | 31 Comments

31 Responses

1. on February 9, 2008 at 1:53 am | Reply JulianofGod

   Hey Lionel, I am not sure where you are going with this. At one point it seems that you would exclude bringing up the Law period. Is that the case or are you referring to people who continue to go back to the Law after they have to come to the knowledge of Christ? I would agree that we are not saved by works of the Law. I would also agree that works of the Law do not make us “look good” in the sight of God. However, I would strongly disagree in leaving the Law by the wayside. It has its purpose, but in the proper framework of Christian life.

   As far as the two Christians go, no man would know either’s true heart. 1. Just because someone does good works, it doesn’t mean that they know Christ. Look at Billy Gates. He gives millions to help AIDS and feed starving children. He is faithful to his wife (or at least if he isn’t his high priced girls don’t let anyone know). Good works then mean nothing if one doesn’t truly have saving faith (which itself is a gift from God). 2. How long does the video game playing, porno watching, schoolbook studying playa continue in his sins before he understands that if he is in Christ he is a new creature- and ought not do those things any longer (Rom 6:1-2)? I contest that if he truly understands he will make a sincere go at not doing those things that bring him back under the Law. He will forego the sin, not because it makes him look better, but because it is what is pleasing to Christ (Jhn 14:15, 1 Jhn 2:3-5).

   The Law is our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. We recieved the moral law knowing that it does not save, but condemns the sin in us. If we relinquish the use of the Law to teach what we ought to abstain from, we run into antinomianism- which produces lawlessness and causes people to believe that they are saved when in fact they have no idea what true salvation is. The Law stops the mouths of those from boasting in their own righteousness. The Law lets us know what it is that God disapproves of.

   1 Tim 1:8-10 But we know that the law [is] good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

   By the way, what are we saved from? We are saved from God himself, from His wrath to come by the blood of Jesus Christ (1 Th 1:10). What brings about His wrath? For proper Christian understanding it is- missing the mark, sinning, in effect- breaking the Law.

   In the end, godly teachers will use the Law to point us to Christ. Yes, the Law shows us that we are incapable of fulfilling the Law within ourselves. Yes, the Law DOES NOT make us righteous before God. However, that does not give us the excuse to transgress the Law. As scripture says, “if we love Him, we will keep His commandments”. Keeping the commandments does not mean that we have faith in them, but that we have faith in Him who shows us our error and chooses to love us in spite of.

   
   
2. on February 9, 2008 at 2:38 am | Reply lionelwoods7

   Hey Julian you said

   The Law is our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. We recieved the moral law knowing that it does not save, but condemns the sin in us.

   Many people quote this verse but lets see what it really says

   24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith

   If you use this verse you have to agree that we are no longer under this schoolmaster as it says in verse 25 correct.

   You also quoted Timothy but what does he say “the law is made for sinners” not for the righteous which you and I belong to.

   Finally the bible never calls the Law “moral” versus “civil” you will not find those words ever mentioned in scripture. We are under the Law of Christ, not a “moral law” in the old testament. Paul says we are “under the law of Christ”.

   Correct we are guilty of breaking that law, but what is that? For example what Law did Cain violate? Could you tell Cain that he violated the “moral law”?

   By the way I do exclude bringing up the law to a believer (and non-believer if you refer to the 10 Commandments) I wrote about that an http://www.anunveiledface.wordpress.com.

   
   
3. on February 9, 2008 at 3:10 pm | Reply Bro. Lawrence D.

   Bro. Lionel,

   I read the reference article “A Bone to Pick” and I must say that I thought that it was insightful and though I don’t have what you may consider accurate or clear answers to some of the questions that you asked there, I would like to offer some thoughts.

   It always depends on the person that we’re dialoguing with but I’ve noticed that at times we don’t accept arguments from silence but we offer them. Asking for an example of someone presenting the law in an evangelistic setting seems to be an argument from silence. I might agree with you that there is little to no detailed example of a one-on-one witness encounter by which we could draw an absolute to-do list for witnessing. However, I again see this as an argument from silence. Perhaps the WOTM method can indeed be developed from applying information from several passages and putting them together to form the method. There are many doctrines that we do this with so it’s not unheard of by any means.

   Also it seems as though there is no accepting of the answers that were already offered. Ray Comfort (trust me, I’m no fan of his or Todd Friel’s) states emphatically that Jesus, Paul, and Peter all used the law in some manner to bring about the knowledge of sin, which prepared the hearts of those to whom they spoke to receive the gospel and he presents examples. Have you seen them? What did you think?

   So far as the schoolmaster passage I think that the “smoking gun” is in the phrase “until Christ came”
   and to what it refers. Is it to His mere appearence in the virgin birth? Is it a reference to the beginning of His earthly ministry? Is it a reference to His appearance after the resurrection? My point is that at birth the law was not replaced. During His earthly ministry He claimed that He had not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. And after the resurrection He instructed the disciples “beginning with Moses” the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures. I’m not saying He did this evangelistically but there must be some purpose for Him doing so. And there is definitely a historical thread in Peter’s, Stephen’s and Philip’s speaches. Surely the law is useful.

   I’ll close with this quotation from Psalm 19:7-11 (KJV) which, I believe, highlights the benefits of the law both to the lost and to one who is God’s own:

   “The LAW of the Lord is perfect, CONVERTING the soul: The TESTIMONY of the Lord is sure MAKING WISE the simple. The STATUTES of the Lord are right, REJOICING the heart: the COMMANDMENT of the Lord is pure, ENLIGHTENING the eyes. The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever: the JUDGMENTS of the Lord are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than the honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is THY SERVANT warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.”

   If I got off of your point or missed something, I apologize now.

   
   
4. on February 9, 2008 at 5:55 pm | Reply lionelwoods7

   Hey Brother Lawrence great points and no I don’t think you got off the point at all. I want to show you some scriptures and I want to see how you respond to them if that is okay. No arguing, just asking what do we do with these scriptures.

   2 Corinthians 3:4-11
   4 Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

   7 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? 9 For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. 10 Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. 11 For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.

   Lets see what Paul calls the Law

   1. Ministry of death (verse 7)
   2. It has come to an end (verse 7)
   3.ministry of condemnation (verse 9)
   4. it has no glory (verse 10)
   5. it has been surpassed (verse 10)
   6 it was temporary (verse 11)

   Hebrews 8:6-7; and 13

   6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.

   1. The New Covenant is more excellent (verse 6)
   2. The New covenenant is mediated by Christ and thus the old covenant fails because it promises were less
   3. The First Covenant had faults

   13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

   1. The first covenant is obsolete
   2. It is ready to vanish away

   Now as Paul refers to the Old Covenant what is he referring to in 2 Corinthians 3:7 (he says it was written in stone, which is the 10 commandments correct?) So why would I continue to use something that is obsolete? You don’t see people running around using obsolete items. Why? Because they have been superceded by something greater. That greatness is Christ. I don’t have to use the Law to bring anyone to Christ. All I need is Chist. He is the cornerstone and not the law.

   I would love to dialogue more on this issue. Thanks for the friendly interaction.

   
   
5. on February 10, 2008 at 2:29 am | Reply Bro. Lawrence D.

   Hey Bro Lionel, here’s my take:

   (II Corinthians 3:4-11) Paul begins this chapter as a defense against the false teachers who claimed that Paul was inadequate as a teacher. He then (in verses 4-6) claims that his adequacy comes from God through Christ who has established the “new covenant” whereby a man is made worthy by God standards, which a man can only do by grace.

   Now, we need to define some terms for discussion. What does Paul mean by “ministry of death”? Well, let’s look at Romans 7:7-13 “What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I WOULD NOT HAVE COME TO KNOW SIN EXCEPT THROUGH THE LAW; FOR I WOULD NOT HAVE KNOWN ABOUT COVETING IF THE LAW HAD NOT SAID “YOU SHALL NOT COVET”. But sin, taking opportunity throught the commandment, produced in me conveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. I was once alive apart from the Law; but whenthe commandment came, sin became alive and I died; and this commandment, which was to result in live, proved to result in death for me; for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, IN ORDER THAT IT MIGHT BE SHOWN TO BE SIN BY EFFECTING MY DEATH THROUGH THAT WHICH IS GOOD, SO THAT THROUGH THE COMMANDMENT SIN WOULD BECOME UTTERLY SINFUL.”
   (emphasis mine, of course LOL!)

   The Law is the ministry of death to: 1) all who seek to be justified by it’s keeping and 2)to all who are self-righteous in any way. Here’s where the usage of the law in evangelism and preaching comes in: Do a survey of one block in your neighborhood and see how many people believe that they are a good person who deserves to go to heaven when they die. They probably believe that as long as they aren’t as bad as others to whom they compare themselves, then they must be okay with God. The Law helps them to see that before a Holy and Righteous Judge who demands perfection, they don’t stand a chance in judgment. Then Christ’ birth, ministry, death on the cross and resurrection, become the “good news” that it was intended to be.

   It is true, that in the very moment it was given, it was being brought to an end. We can see that because even while Moses was on the mountain receiving the commandments, the children of Isreal were already at the foot of the mountain breaking them. It can even be argued that it was over before it started because Christ is “the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world”. But even that does not argue against its usefullness. It’s purpose is to bring about death (the knowledge of sin and its effects) and that’s what it does.

   This post is already getting too long so I’ll just summarize:

   The New Covenant is more excellent indeed because it does not require imperfect men as priests nor animals as sacrifices. That’s the whole point of the book of Hebrews. The book of Hebrews is not a challenge against the usage of the Law in evangelism, it is a message to all those who were in Christ that there was no need to revert back to the Law as a means of justification before God. This could not apply to a sinner who is not in Christ. They need the Law to cause them to see their utter undoneness which should cause them to fall at the foot of the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ.

   How else would you demonstrate the greatness of the Cross when men see other options as viable? In this day and age when the idea of Christ being the Only Way is so repulsive to society, we have to demonstrate His not only His superiority but also the He is the ONLY solution to the problem of men, the wrath of God.

   
   
6. on February 10, 2008 at 11:22 am | Reply Saiko Woods

   What’s up Lionel. As far as Cain goes, the law that he broke was the law of his own conscience (check out Romans 2:14-15). I know that will lead to dispensationalism (of which I hold to, but that’s not the point). I believe that we are saved by grace, but even Paul mentions in Romans 7:7 that if it weren’t for the law, he wouldn’t have even known what sin was without it. In short, we must present Law to the sinner, but we can’t stop there. We must present grace to them as well b/c that is the means by which we are saved. To lean too far on either side is dangerous and is not being faithful to present the whole counsel of God.

   P.S. You know I’m not about to be reading a whole bunch of lines in response to this neither am I going to be making a whole bunch lines in response to your response. So, you know what to do brah’. Hit me on the cell and we can discuss more if you like. Peace. Missed you on the chatline last night man. It was intense!!!!!!!!!!!

   
   
7. on February 10, 2008 at 7:19 pm | Reply Lionel Woods

   Hey Lawrence,

   Why then does Paul and the writer of Hebrews use the word “obsolete” or “passed away”? I don’t think you addressed the issue there.

   Sakio and Lawrence,

   Let me ask another question. When a person who has never heard the Gospel or anything about the Law stands before God, on what basis will God judge him? Will he pull out the Law (10 commandments) and tell him he violated them? Let me ask another question. Is impatience a sin, what about profainity, what about lust against a person who is not married (that isn’t adultrey but fornication correct Saiko)?

   And I will ask again what does the writer of Hebrews mean by obsolete?

   Finally Paul is talking about the Law in Romans because the entire book is about justification apart from the Law, yes the Law is good however, I can preach the gospel without including one element of the Law. Galatians 5 is a great example Paul says “where against such things there is no law”. Lawrence I can present the greatness of the Cross apart from the Law very easily. Because the Cross wasn’t about Law, it was about God and Christ and had nothing to do with the Law. Christ didn’t die for Lawbreakers he died for sinners (elect sinners just in case you get me mistaken on some 4 point stuff).

   Also Lawrence I don’t have to ask them about the Law I just have to compare them to Christ, I can use a slew of other sins. Also Way of the Master takes “the Lord’s name in vain” out of context (everytime the use it), the also take adultrey out of context (you can look at a woman who is not married and that is not adultrey) and finally the don’t even mention the Sabbath (who gives them the right to pick and choose which of the commndements to use?)

   Let me also restate that THIS IS ABOUT A CHRISTIAN AND NOT A NON-CHRISTIAN. If you want to preach an obsolete law then so be it. I will preach Christ and Him crucified. But the Law has ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING ON A BELIEVER. We are in the Church AGE and are not under a TUTOR but under God Himself through the power of the Spirit. NO LAW FOR THE CHRISTIAN Folks.

   
   
8. on February 11, 2008 at 1:22 am | Reply Bro. Lawrence D.

   Bro. Lionel,

   Okay man, I thought that I might have missed something so I accept that. By the way, don’t forget to answer my questions also. I didn’t mean them to be rhetorical. I’ll give your questions another try. Also, did I mention I’m loving this discussion? So here goes:

   Paul and the writer of Hebrews both use the word obsolete in order to declare it’s inability to produce spiritual life or, in other words, a righteous standing before God. It’s only usefulness is to show the greatness of man’s spiritual death and bring that man to the knowledge of his need of a Savior. I believe I did cover that in my last post. Also, obsolete does not mean “no longer useful”. The word for that would be useless. Paul didn’t say that the law was useless. As a matter of fact, he said the opposite. I Timothy 1:8-11 “But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.”

   I have many things in my house that, by societal standards, are obsolete. Why do I still have them? Because they are still useful. Let’s not confuse terms here.
   As to your second question, I will say yes and much, much more. According to Paul in Romans 1:18-20 “For the wrath of God is revealed against ALL ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal Godhead; SO THAT THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE:” Now the objection may be that this applied only to the Jews to whom God revealed the law and I may agree even though I would push for the inclusion of the Gentile nations. However, I have no need of pushing because later on in Romans 2:12-16 Paul says “For as many as have sinned without the law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: WHICH SHEW THE WORK OF THE LAW WRITTEN ON THEIR HEARTS, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge THE SECRETS OF MEN by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

   Clear, at least to me, is the fact that men, whether ignorant or with knowledge, will be judged by the law. When Paul says “according to my gospel” (both here and in the I Timothy passage I cited earlier), I believe him to mean that the gospel that was revealed to him by Jesus (remember he didn’t consult with those who were apostles before him) included a presentation on the law and it’s inability to bring about life and man’s inability to keep it 100% thereby producing Christ as man’s only hope of salvation. That’s clear for a Jew (who had confidence in the law) or a Gentile (who was self-righteous in his idolatry).

   Now your next objection is majorly confusing. “Christ didn’t die for lawbreakers, He died for sinners”, huh? Isn’t a sinner a lawbreaker? Isn’t sin defined biblically as the transgression of God’s law? Didn’t Paul teach in Romans 7:7-13 (as I noted in my last post) that the law causes sin to appear “exceedingly sinful”? Without God’s perfect standard to compare themselves to, all men would believe that the wrong they did wasn’t that bad. By the way, there were 3 questions in that paragraph. LOL!!!

   Now as far as impatience, profanity, and lusting after the unmarried I would say yes that they are definitely sins. But I’m not sure what that has to do with it, except in light of the fact that you said this is more about the believer and less about the sinner.

   I will agree with you about WOTM’s use of the third and seventh commandments and the fact that they leave out, for the most part, the fourth commandment. However, as far as their seventh commandment I would disagree with them for a different reason. First off, “to lust after” implies more than a sexual thought but a sexual intent. In other words, when you look, if you can, you pursue. According to James, who uses the word in a broad since, lust must conceive then it will bring forth sin. I believe that they intentionally change “to lust after” to “look with lust” in order to paint with a broader brush. I only found that rendering in one translation against another 26 that don’t have it that way. That raises some “Creflo Dollar Amplified Bible” alarms for me.

   Now I will admit two other things about the WOTM approach. (Remember I told you that I am no fan) One thing is that it makes it much more easier for witnessing because of it’s simplistic approach. But that’s not necessarily good in that it has the tendency to sound disingenuous over time becoming a schtick. The second thing is that I sense some spiritual elitism in them. They claim to “want to make sure that you’re saved”, which they can’t. Oh and just for kicks here’s a third, they SELL 95% of their products. If they are really concerned with the souls of men and they believe that there method is the correct one (hence the Way of The Master), then how come they aren’t fighting all they know how to get this information out free?

   Now as far as the Christian goes I agree that we are no longer under the Mosaic law. Christians do, however, have many commandments, precepts, and admonitions, that we are to govern our lives by, both in the church and home. These apply as well in the workplace or general public. These can be found throughout the epistles and even in the letters to the churches in Revelations. Don’t forget, you used several of these commandments to rebuke certain behavior in me that you found objectionable and it was a great help to me. You’re not saying that you were wrong are you?

   Two more questions, what do you do with the Psalm 19 passage that I cited in a previous post? And in II Timothy 3:16 does the Holy Spirit include the law when He says that ALL SCRIPTURE…IS PROFITABLE…?

   
   
9. on February 11, 2008 at 8:16 am | Reply JulianofGod

   Yo Lionel, check this out. We are no longer under the school master, but that does not mean that we forget what we have learned either. Furthermore, Paul is speaking to the churches in Galatia, they were Gentiles. They did not have the Law. But Paul finds it necessary to bring it up to a people who were outside of it (just as we are). In doing so he gives a foundation for understanding for Christianity. The Law is not the end and could never be- that is purely and unequivocally true and is stated over and over again in scripture. You have my full support on that. My only contention is that we see that Christ did send the Law (for how else would we know what sin is). The Law simply draws the line so that we can recognize what we need to stay away from. Now I am fully aware that unless Christ helps us we will continue to sin, however, not at any time are we to simply act and wait on God to move. We are to actively participate in working out our own salvation- to include avoiding what would be considered sin.

   Also, we are commanded to fulfill the Law of Christ. What exactly is the law of Christ?

   1 Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

   That is directly echoed from the Gospels:
   Mark 12:30-31 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment. And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

   If we do not lie, steal, covet, and the rest of the 10 commandments we are honoring Christ in keeping His commandments. There is no need for us to harp on them so to speak, because we walk in the Spirit and thereby not walking in the lusts of the flesh. But again, it is there for us to know what sin is.

   As far as not using the Law to witness, hey man, that’s your perogative and I don’t think that it is wrong. The grace of Christ is awesome and awe-inspiring. I just duly believe that on an intellectual level it (the law) strikes a fear in some. I believe that coincides with scripture which says the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Thus we teach folk of the impending wrath of God to come on the children of disobedience. And that sets up an exalted understanding of the purpose of the cross glorifying the Father through the Son.

   One more thing, since Christ fulfilled the law, and we are called to follow Christ, then we should be fullfilling the Law as well. Now we could not do it on our own, but we are empowered by the Holy Spirit to walk after the Spirit- in doing so loving the Lord with all of heart and our neighbors as ourselves.

   Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

   When Christ says to fulfil in this verse He means that is to be obeyed as it should be. Again, for us, it is Christ who strenghtens us to do so. check the link concerning “fulfil.”

   http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4137&Version=kjv

   
   
10. on February 11, 2008 at 2:46 pm | Reply lionelwoods7

    Hey BLD you said:

    Paul and the writer of Hebrews both use the word obsolete in order to declare it’s inability to produce spiritual life or, in other words, a righteous standing before God.

    The Law could NEVER PRODUCE SPIRITUAL LIFE that is the point I am making here. The Law is and was a “ministry of death”. The Law veiled a man’s eyes due to them trying to attain righteousness through it.

    You then said:

    Now your next objection is majorly confusing. “Christ didn’t die for lawbreakers, He died for sinners”, huh? Isn’t a sinner a lawbreaker? Isn’t sin defined biblically as the transgression of God’s law?

    I say which Law did, Cain, Adam, Eve, Abraham, Esau or Pharoah break? There was no law in place correct? So what were they judged upon?

    Also as it relates to the Lust thing. The lust I am referring to is in relation to sexual lust, because the commandment is referring to adultrey.

    Finally David is speaking under a different Covenant brother. David didn’t have an understanding of what Christ would bring nor what He would do in His ministry. The Apostles even didn’t get it bro until Pentacost. The New Testament was mystery even to the great prophets of God. They had limited view while we have the entire Canon. It is funny in Acts 15 James says “a yoke that we and fathers couldn’t even bear”.

    To answer you next question does all not have conditions? For example what if I teach about the tabernacle? Is that profitable for a Christian? Yes but only if I point them to Christ the “true tabernacle”. Get what I am saying? Yes the Law is profitable, but only if it points them to Christ.

    I think you may be getting me confused. I am not saying you don’t talk about the Law, but I am saying that Christ fullfills the Law. The Law was a SHADOW of a better promise. So yeah it is profitable, but ONLY AND ONLY IF POINT THEM TO CHRIST. Jesus says this:

    John 5:39
    39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,

    And then Luke says this in the 24th chapter of his gospel:

    27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.

    I don’t deny that the Law is useful, but only if it points a man to Christ. Once again, I am not saying that the Law is no good at all, but that it is NOT TO BE USED TO GOVERN THE LIFE OF THE BELIEVER, THE SPIRIT IS! I like typing in Caps

    Hope I answered your questions Lawrence. Let me know if I did not.

    
    
11. on February 11, 2008 at 3:01 pm | Reply lionelwoods7

    Hey Brother C I love conversing with you and Lawrence brother. You guys don’t understand how you have sharpened me. Let me answer your first objection:

    Furthermore, Paul is speaking to the churches in Galatia, they were Gentiles. They did not have the Law. But Paul finds it necessary to bring it up to a people who were outside of it (just as we are). In doing so he gives a foundation for understanding for Christianity

    The reason Paul brings up the Law to the Galatians believers is because they were now thinking about (some actually were) going to it to be justified, because of the Judaizers. Paul didn’t initiate the “law” conversation they did by being persuaded to be circumscied by the Juadizers.

    Next you said:

    My only contention is that we see that Christ did send the Law (for how else would we know what sin is). The Law simply draws the line so that we can recognize what we need to stay away from.

    I don’t agree with this. Not the least bit. The Law was given as a “Covenant Document” and was placed in the Ark for the Hebrews. It was a conditional covenant for them to possess the Land. Here we go in Deut 28 it is long but worth it:

    28:1 “And if you faithfully obey the voice of the Lord your God, being careful to do all his commandments that I command you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth. 2 And all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you, if you obey the voice of the Lord your God. 3 Blessed shall you be in the city, and blessed shall you be in the field. 4 Blessed shall be the fruit of your womb and the fruit of your ground and the fruit of your cattle, the increase of your herds and the young of your flock. 5 Blessed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl. 6 Blessed shall you be when you come in, and blessed shall you be when you go out. 7 “The Lord will cause your enemies who rise against you to be defeated before you. They shall come out against you one way and flee before you seven ways. 8 The Lord will command the blessing on you in your barns and in all that you undertake. And he will bless you in the land that the Lord your God is giving you. 9 The Lord will establish you as a people holy to himself, as he has sworn to you, if you keep the commandments of the Lord your God and walk in his ways. 10 And all the peoples of the earth shall see that you are called by the name of the Lord, and they shall be afraid of you. 11 And the Lord will make you abound in prosperity, in the fruit of your womb and in the fruit of your livestock and in the fruit of your ground, within the land that the Lord swore to your fathers to give you. 12 The Lord will open to you his good treasury, the heavens, to give the rain to your land in its season and to bless all the work of your hands. And you shall lend to many nations, but you shall not borrow. 13 And the Lord will make you the head and not the tail, and you shall only go up and not down, if you obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you today, being careful to do them, 14 and if you do not turn aside from any of the words that I command you today, to the right hand or to the left, to go after other gods to serve them. 15 “But if you will not obey the voice of the Lord your God or be careful to do all his commandments and his statutes that I command you today, then all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you. 16 Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the field. 17 Cursed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl. 18 Cursed shall be the fruit of your womb and the fruit of your ground, the increase of your herds and the young of your flock. 19 Cursed shall you be when you come in, and cursed shall you be when you go out.

    This law was never given to gentiles and they could not get any promises by following it and no curses by not following it. Let me give you the first introduction of the Law in Exodus 19:

    19:1 On the third new moon after the people of Israel had gone out of the land of Egypt, on that day they came into the wilderness of Sinai. 2 They set out from Rephidim and came into the wilderness of Sinai, and they encamped in the wilderness. There Israel encamped before the mountain, 3 while Moses went up to God. The Lord called to him out of the mountain, saying, “Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the people of Israel: 4 You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. 5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine; 6 and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words that you shall speak to the people of Israel.”

    Then finally lets look at Exodus 24:

    24:1 Then he said to Moses, “Come up to the Lord, you and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and worship from afar. 2 Moses alone shall come near to the Lord, but the others shall not come near, and the people shall not come up with him.” 3 Moses came and told the people all the words of the Lord and all the rules. And all the people answered with one voice and said, “All the words that the Lord has spoken we will do.” 4 And Moses wrote down all the words of the Lord. He rose early in the morning and built an altar at the foot of the mountain, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel. 5 And he sent young men of the people of Israel, who offered burnt offerings and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen to the Lord. 6 And Moses took half of the blood and put it in basins, and half of the blood he threw against the altar. 7 Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it in the hearing of the people. And they said, “All that the Lord has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient.” 8 And Moses took the blood and threw it on the people and said, “Behold the blood of the covenant that the Lord has made with you in accordance with all these words.” 9 Then Moses and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel went up, 10 and they saw the God of Israel. There was under his feet as it were a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness. 11 And he did not lay his hand on the chief men of the people of Israel; they beheld God, and ate and drank.12 The Lord said to Moses, “Come up to me on the mountain and wait there, that I may give you the tablets of stone, with the law and the commandment, which I have written for their instruction.” 13 So Moses rose with his assistant Joshua, and Moses went up into the mountain of God. 14 And he said to the elders, “Wait here for us until we return to you. And behold, Aaron and Hur are with you. Whoever has a dispute, let him go to them.”

    Now I have to ask you brother C. Was the Law given so that people could identify what was an obey or was the Law a conditional covenant give to the people of Israel for a specific purpose? What if the Gentiles in the boarding countries followed this Law would God give them “land to possess” and promise to destroy their enemies? The answer should be no. Just like you over hear me making a business deal with my neighbor. If we agreed to him doing my lawn for $50 and then you overheard that and came and cut my grass and invoiced me am I obligate to pay? No, because the covenant (agreement) wasn’t between you and I it was between me and my neighbor.

    Let me know what you think bro. Sorry for all of the verses.

    
    
12. on February 11, 2008 at 3:21 pm | Reply Bro. Lawrence D.

    Bro. Lionel,

    I guess we were sorta talking past one another. I agree that the law should point to Christ and I thought the both Paul and I had made that clear. LOL!!!

    So far as Adam, didn’t God tell them not to eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil? That was God’s law at that point wasn’t it? He broke it, he and his wife Eve who herself admitted to the serpent that they together had been instructed. Cain killed his brother (murder) . Now if you think that there was no revealed understanding of that being wrong, then I’m not sure how to argue otherwise. He was punished. And again, wrong is wrong in God’s eyesight, whether revealed in written form or not. We still have a conscience/heart where the bible clearly states that God wrote the law. Esau, dishonered his parents by both despising his birthright (selling it for food) and for marrying two Hittite women and then later an Ishmaelite woman. Pharoah thought of himself as god so therefore he dishonered the true and living God in do so. Are you saying that without the tablets of stone that Moses brought down from Sinai, that God was unjust to punish any of these lawbreakers? Paul said that it was written on the hearts of even the Gentiles. Did that happen after Sinai or after the fall?

    Since, in historical terms, most girls were married by the age of 14 and boys by the age of 15, I don’t see how Jesus could have been making a mistake nor his audience miss his meaning. In our present day, with babies having babies, I think that it is entirely applicable because they are making adult decisions with full knowledge of it being sin. It’s adultery, especially for those who don’t marry one another but end up married many years later to someone else. In essence they both committed adultery. Now this may seem like a stretch but remember Jesus was giving God’s omniscient (did I spell that right?) perspective. God knew who I would marry before I ever met her. In his eyes I fornicated but everyone that slept with me committed adultery. Remember that “anyone who marries the one who is put away causes them to commit adultery”. We’re talking God’s perspective not our crass literist approach to word definitions.

    Well, since I believe we actually agree, I’ll let you have the last word on it. I don’t have any more questions but if you do, I’ll be glad to address them. Great discussion brother!

    
    
13. on February 11, 2008 at 3:28 pm | Reply lionelwoods7

    Lawrence,

    I am saying that the Stones has absolutely no bearing on the conscience nor the judgments of God. God didn’t and doesn’t need the law to judge mankind or is it needed to point people to Christ.

    Without the Law people perish, with the Law people perish. I believe the Law was covenant document with Israel that they had to agree with to receive the promises and favor of God as it relates to the land for them to promise. Christ comes along and makes that an unconditional eternal promise and he becomes our Rest or Promised Land (I am not saying that there is no future land for Ethnic Israel, but for the Spiritual Israel which is the church Christ is the Land of Promise thus we “rest from all of our works”).

    
    
14. on February 11, 2008 at 3:50 pm | Reply Bro. Lawrence D.

    Bro. Lionel,

    Looking back at the original post I missed this question and would like to respond:

    (B&R) “Why is the mark of a “TRUE BELIEVER” obedience, good works, morality?”

    Forgetting about the law usage debate, I would ask the Apostle John and the James the same thing. If you have a John MacArthur Study bible, look at the “Historical and Theological Themes” section I John. I’ll just quote this statement “When these 3 (sound faith, obedience, love) operate in concert together, they result in happiness, holiness, and assurance. They constitute the evidence, THE LITMUS TEST, of a true Christian.” (emphasis mine)

    MacArthur seems to believe that John’s point is to emphasize obedience in Christians. Obedience to what? Christ’ commandments. What are Christ’ commandments in detail? Love! How is that worked out? Let me quote I John 2:3-6, “By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.”

    James stresses the “good works” test in James 2:15-26.

    Now I wouldn’t blame preachers for stressing the outward example of the inward conversion if it wasn’t for passages like these. Not to mention, Paul’s many, many writings on the subject.

    Now in my personal opinion, I’m not sure how anyone can have assurance of their salvation from doing these things as certain preachers (MacArthur, Piper, Washer, Friel) and others suggest. When in fact, you can live the most holy outward Christian life and affirm all the correct creeds and still be lost. How? If you have confidence that any of these things afford you standing with God, instead of your confidence being in Christ alone, then you’ll still be lost even though you’ve lived and affirmed correctly. So I understand your frustration to reconcile this whole business of governing believers lives with laws and rules. Especially man-made expansions on what the scripture states. I mean we have prohibitions against R-rated movies or certain television programs. I agree we should be careful what we watch but to call it all sin to watch is a stretch. (a la Todd Friel)

    
    
15. on February 11, 2008 at 3:56 pm | Reply lionelwoods7

    Yeah my Lordship view is coming back to haunt me in a way. You bring up some good points for me to wrestle through and striking a balance between obedience and justification is extremely difficult brother. Thanks again for your input and dialogue it has been great.

    
    
16. on February 11, 2008 at 4:43 pm | Reply Emissary/ Easy G (G²)

    If I may say, many of the points Brother Lawrence has brought up are some which I’ve always held to (especially on the verses dealing with “if you do as I command…)

    Other verses to go along with that which seem to indicate a cause & effect scenario:

    Matthew 18

    The Parable of the Unmerciful Servant

    21Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?”

    22Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.[f]

    23″Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents[g] was brought to him. 25Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

    26″The servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

    28″But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii.[h] He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.

    29″His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.’

    30″But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened.

    32″Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

    35″This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”

    # Luke 6:37
    [ Judging Others ] “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

    Mark 11:24-27

    24Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. 25And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.”[a]

    Something which has always stuck out to me is in John 15:

    John 15
    The Vine and the Branches
    1″I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

    5″I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

    9″As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love.

    10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

    11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.

    14You are my friends if you do what I command.

    15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17This is my command: Love each other.

    I definately think BLD had some solid point

    (BLD): When in fact, you can live the most holy outward Christian life and affirm all the correct creeds and still be lost. How? If you have confidence that any of these things afford you standing with God, instead of your confidence being in Christ alone, then you’ll still be lost even though you’ve lived and affirmed correctly.

    To that, I’d agree somewhat. For ultmately, what the Lord weighs is the heart…..even above OUTWARD ACTIONS/APPEARANCES

    1 Samuel 16:7
    But the LORD said to Samuel, “Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.”

    Proverbs 21:2
    All a man’s ways seem right to him, but the LORD weighs the heart.

    Jeremiah 17:10

    10 “I the LORD search the heart
    and examine the mind,
    to reward a man according to his conduct,
    according to what his deeds deserve.”

    It can be dangerous when the focus becomes on how one appears EXTERNALLY…FOR one can still do many things having the “appearance of godlines” and yet still be worldly at heart since worldliness is a matter of INTERNAL MOTIVES rather than EXTERNALITIES (i.e. who you hang with, where you go, WHAT YOU WATCHetc)…….

    1 John 2:15-19

    Do Not Love the World

    15Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For everything in the world—the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and
    does—comes not from the Father but from the world. 17The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever.

    Not say that external actions are unimportant:

    Hebrews 12

    Warning Against Refusing God

    14Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many. 16See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. 17Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. He could bring about no change of mind, though he sought the blessing with tears.

    but one with a correct change of heart will do the right kind of actions in time. That’s the promise we’ve been given in the HOLY SPIRIT:

    John 16:12-14

    12″I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.

    Hebrews 10:14
    because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

    2 Peter 1

    Making One’s Calling and Election Sure

    3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

    5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

    10Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

    Again, sanctificantion is a DAILY PROCESS……

    But if the focus becomes on mere right actions alone, again, that’s dangerous……you can still do many of the right actions and not be changed (i.e. preaching every Sunday but doing so out of PRIDE or to be seen……or BOASTING OF HOW MUCH BETTER YOU ARE THAN SOMEONE, which is ARROGANCE and a worldly attitude—–especially when you’re lacking the most basic characteristic of those who clainm to be elect:

    HUMILITY—-

    Colossians 3

    12Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

    James 3:13-18

    Two Kinds of Wisdom
    13Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. 16For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.

    17But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness.

    I think it’d be better to say that one can only define a holy life by a holy STATE OF HEART/MIND. One can have an understanding of all of the correct creeds and beliefs and yet if their confidence is in those things alone, they’re still lost.

    Moreover, It’s essentially the scenario Jesus described of the Pharissee who was proud of how “good” he was in comparision to others and how much he knew….and it was on that basis that his confidence came from.

    Luke 18

    The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

    9To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10″Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood up and prayed about[a] himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

    13″But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

    14″I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

    I think, however, that one should be very careful when it comes to saying that if there’s ever a time when one’s confidence becomes in their works as opposed to Christ ALONE, then they’re lost.

    For example, where the GALATIANS NO LONGER SAVED WHEN THEY BEGAN TO BELIEVE IN THEIR WORKS MORESO THAN THE WORK OF CHRIST? Of course they started out right, but in that moment in time their UNDERSTANDING OF THE GOSPEL WAS SKEWED–AND THUS an inccorect application of behavior was done . Where was a loss of salvation an issue?

    Galatians 1

    No Other Gospel

    6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

    Galatians 3

    Faith or Observance of the Law

    1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? 5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

    Have we not all done the same thing at some point or another, where we started out in the SIMPLICITY OF CHRIST KNOWING THAT WE HAD NOTHING TO OFFER THE LORD AND CRIED OUT IN FIATH TO SAVE US…..but in time, in the process of trying to please him, we started to think that what we did was of ULTIMATE MERIT BEFORE HIM? Did God cut us off?

    Take it a step further. If someone came to know Christ but they either grew up ROMAN CATHOLIC or started attending a ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH—– but they began to believe that their works are what God saved you on SOLEY–BUT they were sincerly seeking to know the Lord====, did they stop being saved due to a misunderstanding of what the Gospel was about? Or are they lost because their understanding of the basic concepts isn’t complete but their hearts were in the right place and they were both seeking to love others as Jesus COMMANDED and live HOLY?

    
    
17. on February 11, 2008 at 4:50 pm | Reply Emissary/ Easy G (G²)

    Meant to add on the point of what I said regarding “CAUSE AND EFFECT” that I’m not advocating a mentality that says God forgives because we forgive (i.e. works)….but simply that one who has been truly transformed and recognizes the grave debt one owes before the Lord and how large God’s grace is to them will forgive. ASKING THE Lord to forgive us & BE MERCIFUL TO US and yet REFUSING TO DO SO TOWARD others goes AGAINST HIS CHARACTER, revealing that WE DO NOT TRULY KNOW HIM SINCE WE’RE DENYING WHO HE IS…….AND if one is not doing so, then does he or she truly understand GRACE AND HAS BEEN TRANSFORMED?

    Luke 7

    Jesus Anointed by a Sinful Woman

    36Now one of the Pharisees invited Jesus to have dinner with him, so he went to the Pharisee’s house and reclined at the table. 37When a woman who had lived a sinful life in that town learned that Jesus was eating at the Pharisee’s house, she brought an alabaster jar of perfume, 38and as she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them.

    39When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, “If this man were a prophet, he would know who is touching him and what kind of woman she is—that she is a sinner.”

    40Jesus answered him, “Simon, I have something to tell you.”
    “Tell me, teacher,” he said.

    41″Two men owed money to a certain moneylender. One owed him five hundred denarii,[d] and the other fifty. 42Neither of them had the money to pay him back, so he canceled the debts of both. Now which of them will love him more?”

    43Simon replied, “I suppose the one who had the bigger debt canceled.”
    “You have judged correctly,” Jesus said.

    44Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I came into your house. You did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45You did not give me a kiss, but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet. 46You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. 47Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little.”

    48Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”

    49The other guests began to say among themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”

    50Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

    Psalm 130

    3 If you, O LORD, kept a record of sins,
    O Lord, who could stand?

    4 But with you there is forgiveness;
    therefore you are feared.

    I John 4

    God’s Love and Ours

    7Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son[b] into the world that we might live through him. 10This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for[c] our sins. 11Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

    13We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God. 16And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.

    God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. 18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

    19We love because he first loved us. 20If anyone says, “I love God,” yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.

    
    
18. on February 11, 2008 at 5:41 pm | Reply lionelwoods7

    Great Points Gabriel,

    However you have missed my post. I have NEVER SAID that the Law of Christ is not bearing on the Christian. I am talking about the Law (10 Commandments and anything associated with the Old Covenant). The Law of Christ which includes but not limited to Galatians 5, Ephesians 4, 2 Timothy 1, Colossians 3, 1 Corinthians 6 are all encompassed by the Law of Christ. I never said that the Christian IS WITHOUT LAW just not the Law as it relates to 10 Commandments. But to make it an even more definite point, the Christian has the Holy Spirit and not a “written law” that guides them. Jesus says “He will convict you of sin”. Not the Law but the Holy Spirit (God) Himself. The writer of Hebrews re-emphasizes this when he uses Jeremiah in Hebrews 8 “no longer will a man have to teach his neighbor”.

    So I think there is a missed point. We address sin and yes that is law but it is the Law of Christ.

    Finally Gabriel you said this:

    Take it a step further. If someone came to know Christ but they either grew up ROMAN CATHOLIC or started attending a ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH—– but they began to believe that their works are what God saved you on SOLEY–BUT they were sincerly seeking to know the Lord====, did they stop being saved due to a misunderstanding of what the Gospel was about? Or are they lost because their understanding of the basic concepts isn’t complete but their hearts were in the right place and they were both seeking to love others as Jesus COMMANDED and live HOLY?

    My brother in all love, this is a very dangerous statement, very dangerous. If a man falls back to the law for salvation, it may be evidence that they were never saved, not that they have made a mistake. This is the warning that Paul gives them in the epistle. Their faith would be vain, because they never had true SAVING FAITH. If a man becomes a Mormon after being a Christian for 20 years, this isn’t a category mistake, this is evidence that he was the seed that fell amongst the thorns and was choked out before fruit could be produced. Finally your sincerety doesn’t mean anything Gabriel. There are many sincere Jews, Muslims, Hindus and the like, their sincerity will place them in hell bro. This is what Paul was telling the Galatians, he told them if they are now going to go get circumcised to be included in the body of Christ that their faith was vain and that he labored in vain for them. I am confused on why you would think otherwise.

    
    
19. on February 11, 2008 at 5:44 pm | Reply lionelwoods7

    Gabriel,

    I don’t know what your second post refers to brother. This isn’t about love versus no love. It is about the law and Gospel

    
    
20. on February 11, 2008 at 6:36 pm | Reply Bro. Lawrence D.

    Bro. Lionel,

    Wasn’t every point in the 10 commandments restated in the New Testament as binding upon the Christian as a manner of lifestyle, except for the sabbath?

    I’m sure that as a Christian I’m not supposed to love another god, worship idols, take God’s name in vain, dishonor my parents, kill, commit adultery, steal, lie, or covet, right?

    I mean, I’m not even sure what your arguing for in your responses. That may mean that there’s a problem with my understanding and not your communication. But I’m yet confused.

    Are you simply saying that we don’t need those things written down? If so, then why did Paul write any of his epistles? He had been to most of those places, he had preached there, and the people had come to know the Lord through his gospel. Yet he felt the need to write to them to explain how they should govern their lives as Christians. You can definitely find “law” in every epistle.

    Grace is for humility, not elitism. Grace is for freedom, not license. Grace is to cover sin, not to give sin the okay. Grace exalts Christ, not men. By grace men are saved from the penalty of the law which would otherwise be binding upon them.

    According to Paul, men will be judged by the law. People will be in hell for their sins (transgression of the law) not because they didn’t “accept Jesus”. Christians will be judged by their works only as it relates to their rewards.

    We must all seek a balance between the law and grace. Christians should strive to live exemplary lives all for the glory of God. At the same time they should understand that the grace of God is their to help them in their time of need.

    
    
21. on February 11, 2008 at 7:06 pm | Reply Emissary/ Easy G (G²)

    Hey, Brah. Clarifications on what I’m saying:

    My brother in all love, this is a very dangerous statement, very dangerous. If a man falls back to the law for salvation, it may be evidence that they were never saved, not that they have made a mistake. This is the warning that Paul gives them in the epistle. Their faith would be vain, because they never had true SAVING FAITH. If a man becomes a Mormon after being a Christian for 20 years, this isn’t a category mistake, this is evidence that he was the seed that fell amongst the thorns and was choked out before fruit could be produced. Finally your sincerety doesn’t mean anything Gabriel. There are many sincere Jews, Muslims, Hindus and the like, their sincerity will place them in hell bro. This is what Paul was telling the Galatians, he told them if they are now going to go get circumcised to be included in the body of Christ that their faith was vain and that he labored in vain for them. I am confused on why you would think otherwise.

    Not at all saying you’re saved by sincerity…..for all of us can be SINCERLY WRONG. What I’m saying (as we’ve discussed via phone before & thought we were in agreement on) is that one can be in error on something temporarily and yet still come out of it.

    Scenario: I got saved. I knew I had nothing to offer the Lord and came to him in SIMPLE FAITH THAT I’D BE SAVED IF I CRIED OUT TO HIM.

    Later on, in hearing teachings that I had to be pleasing to the Lord in all things before he was accepting/approving of me, I constantly tried to perform well. If I didn’t pray for a long time, get everything right, or do everything as I thought he wanted, I condemed myself.

    However, God revealed the truth to me in time and I came to complete understanding of how my justification was not based on the law or how well I performed but in Christ alone. And I came out of it.

    Basically, what I was trying to convey was that how in the world was saved in understanding the BASICS of salvation in Christ (i.e. by faith alone, trust in His SPOTLESS RECORD,etc)……and then somehow became UNSAVED (if it’s possible) because I began to believe that MY WORKS DETERMINDED MY STANDING BEFORE THE LORD….and then BACK INTO BEING SAVED AGAIN?

    Perhaps terminlogy is the issue. I by no means am saying that one can be a Christian and then become a ROMAN CATHOLIC or a MORMON LATER ON IN LIFE AND STILL BE SAVED……all I’m saying is that even in the case that one falls prey to their teachings, if he or she is still seeking the truth, they’ll come out of it and that the only reason they fell
    into it is perhaps becuase their basis understanding of the Gospel became clouded.

    If God can give complete truth to a man such as COrnelius (Acts 10), even though he knew nothing about Christ but was still devout, God-Fearing, and obeyed that which he did know about the Lord, and the Lord brought him out of it in time by sending someone to give him the correct/full application of what it means to follow the Lord/be saved since he was seeking Him and his heart honored the Lord, then why is it not possible with someone’s whose a Roman Catholic?

    Or why is it that there seems (and I by no means am calling names) a double standard by many when we say “That person’s in a Mormon Cult, they can’t be saved” and yet there may be areas in our lives where there’s sin that God said if it was in our lives we would not inherit the KINGDOM OF GOD but we thought we were cool.

    When I was gossipping and thought it was OK and I didn’t know that slanders were not included in the Kingdom….or whenever I gave into greed and thought it was cool but God said it was not to be accepted (Ephesians 5, Galatians 5:16-25), but there were other areas that I was bearing fruit of the Spirit in and honestly believed that I was representing or KNEW the SAVIOR AS HE WAS, was I at that point NOT SAVED ANYMORE BECAUSE OF MY LACK OF UNDERSTANDING?

    What of the many sins that I commit on a DAY TO DAY BASIS THAT I DON’T KNOW ABOUT (as well as those I do by OMISSION–”He who knows the Good he ought to do and yet doesn’t do it sins”, James 4:?? Does that discount my salvation because I don’t have awareness of that as well??

    
    
22. on February 11, 2008 at 7:12 pm | Reply Emissary/ Easy G (G²)

    Gabriel,

    I don’t know what your second post refers to brother. This isn’t about love versus no love. It is about the law and Gospel

    Double-G: In saying this, I was trying to connect this to the theme of works and what their status is in the Gospel, as LOVE IS APART & THE SUMMATION of the law of Christ:

    The Greatest Commandment
    34Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:

    36″Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37Jesus replied: ” ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[b] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

    
    
23. on February 11, 2008 at 7:26 pm | Reply lionelwoods7

    Brother Gabriel I am becoming more concerned as you write bro. Here is what you said:

    If God can give complete truth to a man such as COrnelius (Acts 10), even though he knew nothing about Christ but was still devout, God-Fearing, and obeyed that which he did know about the Lord, and the Lord brought him out of it in time by sending someone to give him the correct/full application of what it means to follow the Lord/be saved since he was seeking Him and his heart honored the Lord, then why is it not possible with someone’s whose a Roman Catholic?

    You first must understand that there is a transitional process with the New Covenant. Christ had just ressurected thus the Gospel message hadn’t gone out completely. Cornelius was a “worshiper of God” meaning he believed in the promised Messiah to come. Just as the other folks. God saved them through Christ in the Old Covenant but they only had a muddy picture of what this looked like bro. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, David, Jeremiah Elisha all fall under the same category as Cornelius, the only thing is that he lived long enough to fall under both covenants. So this story is a bad example. I also never said it was impossible for anyone to be saved. Where are getting that from?

    Or why is it that there seems (and I by no means am calling names) a double standard by many when we say “That person’s in a Mormon Cult, they can’t be saved” and yet there may be areas in our lives where there’s sin that God said if it was in our lives we would not inherit the KINGDOM OF GOD but we thought we were cool.

    To this one is my greatest concerned drawn brother. A Mormon DOES NOT BELIEVE THE GOSPEL! Plan and simple. And a Christian who sins is still under the Atoning work of Christ. So regardless of his moral state, it has no bearing on their Salvation (if they are truly saved). NO BEARING AT ALL. God does not judge us on morality bro. There are sins you commit everday, every single day, rather you are conscience of them or not. So there is no where in SCRIPTURE where God says a Christian who committs this or that sin “WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD”. A man/woman who has put their trust in Christ is completely JUSTIFIED and God does not charge their sins against them this is why Paul says “He made him who knew no sin to become sin, that we may become the rightouesness of God”.

    Gabriel, you have to be careful brother, because you are making a distinction between sin and unbelief. Though unbelief is a sin it is one that is not covered by the blood of Christ. Faith is our only work so to say, and that is even given by God. A mormon has not put his trust in the risen savior thus they reject the Gospel of Christ. Christ didn’t pay for that one bro. He did pay for lust, gossip, slander, lies, deceit, and even sexual immorality. Please be careful maybe I am missing your point but what I read from you concerns me.

    
    
24. on February 11, 2008 at 8:06 pm | Reply S.J. Walker

    Brothers,

    The thing to remember here us that the Law, or a better way to say that is The Standard of the Holiness of God is just as eternal as God Himself. It is as much an attribute of Him as grace, and life-giving power. IN fact, they are inseparable.

    NO ONE, Old Testament or New Testament, has EVER been saved by the Covenant of the Law. From Eden to Las Vegas, men have always been saved by the Gracious spilling of innocent blood. It was in faith of God’s grace and good favor that Moses was redeemed. We are no different.

    His Holiness, has been the plumb-line for viewing our crookedness ever since ever.

    It is not correct to assume that before Christ came in person that men were saved by this Covenant. The Law is Law and God is Law. Grace is Grace and God is Grace. These have been complimentary attributes of His Person since eternity past and still are, and always will be.

    God has always judged the heart (Psalm 50).

    The message the apostles preached may not have always used the Ray Comfort understanding. But they alwasy said “repent and believe”. “Repent and be baptized”. Repent of WHAT? Believe WHAT? It is imparative that men are given the entire truth.

    The entire truth is that we are all born children of wrath, loving the sin we are born into, and alive only to ignorance. In order to be born again, we must die. The Law kills us, or rather, find us to be dead in our trespasses and sins. We have nothing to repent of if we have not heard that we are guilty of something terrible. The good news of the Gospel and the Law of Christ will have no meaning resulting in repentance and true belief if there is not the bad news of the reality of the Holiness of God that all fall short of achieving.

    You cannot preach Christ and Him crucified and exclude the Law. How can we say Christ fulfilled the Law if people are not told also that this is the Law we have all broken from birth? If we mention not the Law (including the 10 Commandments), that is, if we mention not the Holiness of God, we have done Him disservice and we have done that poor soul a great wrong.

    We must point them to Christ. No one here denies that. Praise God. But the Law of Christ will have no bearing on a lost soul without its complimentary contrast.

    We do not preach a Pharisee Law. We preach the Law of Christ which includes the 10 commandment–and more. It is all about Christ, that includes the Old Testament. It is on His great merit that any have been saved in any time from Abel to me.

    We must show the line in the sand, the Law, as we were also shown it. Without that, grace will have no merit or motivation. And God will not be glorified in people who do not only like and even love Him but also fear Him as a child both fears and respects and loves his Marine Corps father who can kill a man with his thumb but also pull an injured soldier from a hopelessly damaged HUMVEE without breaking a single other bone.

    We preach not the Law of Works, yes. We preach the Law of Christ, yes. But the Law of works(the 10 commandments and so on) must be revealed for it to become “obsolete”. It is only “obsolete” in a believer. A non-believer MUST hear it for any of the good news to have any meaning to him. Period.

    We cannot forget this gentlemen.

    Be encouraged.

    
    
25. on February 11, 2008 at 8:08 pm | Reply Emissary/ Easy G (G²)

    Yeah, Brah…

    Definately think you are mssing my point. Already understood there’s a transitional process with the New Covenant. Again, I never said that one can be a MORMON—AS IN HOLDING TO EVERY TENET OF THE MORMON FAITH UNREPENTEDLY—and be saved.

    So to make sure we’re on the same page, are we saying that —-And per our phone conversation (though if that’s private, my apologies), are we basically saying that everyone who’s in a Mormom, Jehova Witness, or Roman Catholic group is not part of the Elect? Or that anyone ever involved in this group even if it was for a season was never saved to begin with? Or that they cannot ever be in the group and begin to develop a correct understanding of what the Gospel of Christ is about and eventually leave?

    This isn’t asked to try & trap you as you know that’s not my M.O—–but when you used to be involved in Word of Faith, were you being presented a correct image of who Christ was? And you yourself once said to me, were you not pretty sure that you were saved despite this? Did being in that organization and happening to believe some of the same things they believed in make you not a believer?

    Trust me, I understand that I have to be careful in what I’m saying because some have taken it to the extreme of UNIVERSALISM……that’s not my M.O.

    Again, perhaps I’m not coming off the right way or using the wrong terminology…….BUT I do believe that perhaps it’d be beneficial to have some basis inquiry at this point.

    
    
26. on February 11, 2008 at 8:17 pm | Reply S.J. Walker

    In other words. You can’t completely preach Grace without the Law to give it color. You can’t preach the Law without Grace to give hope to the hopeless. Neither can exclude the other.

    
    
27. on February 11, 2008 at 8:23 pm | Reply Gabriel

    To give more basis as to where I’m trying to come from,

    As Brother Matt Slick said at CARM, “Finally, I believe that there are truly regenerate Christians in the Roman Catholic church. But, they are truly Christians in spite of official RCC theology and in spite of the ritualistic offerings of this ancient church which has had too many hands meddling in it through the centuries, gradually moving it away from orthodoxy and into apostasy. Yes, apostasy. The Roman Catholic Church is no longer representing true Christianity”

    For more reference,
    http://www.gotquestions.org/catholicism.html

    
    
28. on February 11, 2008 at 10:00 pm | Reply lionelwoods7

    Hey Gabriel. I don’t feel trapped.

    What I am saying is that I don’t know who is elect and who is not and Word of Faith and Mormonism are two extremes. If a Mormon denies the tenets of Christian Doctrine then maybe they are elect but as for now they are not saved. We don’t know who is elect and who isn’t. However, to deny Christian doctrine is to deny Christ it is his doctrine. We who hold to election don’t believe that any of the elect will refuse to accept essential Christian doctrine bro. There may be some confusion there. Word of Faith yes, Cult no!

    
    
29. on February 11, 2008 at 10:04 pm | Reply lionelwoods7

    SJ we have agreed on a bunch but we will have our first disagreement here. I will repost this to ensure you understand where I am coming from

    Hey Brother C I love conversing with you and Lawrence brother. You guys don’t understand how you have sharpened me. Let me answer your first objection:

    Furthermore, Paul is speaking to the churches in Galatia, they were Gentiles. They did not have the Law. But Paul finds it necessary to bring it up to a people who were outside of it (just as we are). In doing so he gives a foundation for understanding for Christianity

    The reason Paul brings up the Law to the Galatians believers is because they were now thinking about (some actually were) going to it to be justified, because of the Judaizers. Paul didn’t initiate the “law” conversation they did by being persuaded to be circumscied by the Juadizers.

    Next you said:

    My only contention is that we see that Christ did send the Law (for how else would we know what sin is). The Law simply draws the line so that we can recognize what we need to stay away from.

    I don’t agree with this. Not the least bit. The Law was given as a “Covenant Document” and was placed in the Ark for the Hebrews. It was a conditional covenant for them to possess the Land. Here we go in Deut 28 it is long but worth it:

    28:1 “And if you faithfully obey the voice of the Lord your God, being careful to do all his commandments that I command you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth. 2 And all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you, if you obey the voice of the Lord your God. 3 Blessed shall you be in the city, and blessed shall you be in the field. 4 Blessed shall be the fruit of your womb and the fruit of your ground and the fruit of your cattle, the increase of your herds and the young of your flock. 5 Blessed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl. 6 Blessed shall you be when you come in, and blessed shall you be when you go out. 7 “The Lord will cause your enemies who rise against you to be defeated before you. They shall come out against you one way and flee before you seven ways. 8 The Lord will command the blessing on you in your barns and in all that you undertake. And he will bless you in the land that the Lord your God is giving you. 9 The Lord will establish you as a people holy to himself, as he has sworn to you, if you keep the commandments of the Lord your God and walk in his ways. 10 And all the peoples of the earth shall see that you are called by the name of the Lord, and they shall be afraid of you. 11 And the Lord will make you abound in prosperity, in the fruit of your womb and in the fruit of your livestock and in the fruit of your ground, within the land that the Lord swore to your fathers to give you. 12 The Lord will open to you his good treasury, the heavens, to give the rain to your land in its season and to bless all the work of your hands. And you shall lend to many nations, but you shall not borrow. 13 And the Lord will make you the head and not the tail, and you shall only go up and not down, if you obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you today, being careful to do them, 14 and if you do not turn aside from any of the words that I command you today, to the right hand or to the left, to go after other gods to serve them. 15 “But if you will not obey the voice of the Lord your God or be careful to do all his commandments and his statutes that I command you today, then all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you. 16 Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the field. 17 Cursed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl. 18 Cursed shall be the fruit of your womb and the fruit of your ground, the increase of your herds and the young of your flock. 19 Cursed shall you be when you come in, and cursed shall you be when you go out.

    This law was never given to gentiles and they could not get any promises by following it and no curses by not following it. Let me give you the first introduction of the Law in Exodus 19:

    19:1 On the third new moon after the people of Israel had gone out of the land of Egypt, on that day they came into the wilderness of Sinai. 2 They set out from Rephidim and came into the wilderness of Sinai, and they encamped in the wilderness. There Israel encamped before the mountain, 3 while Moses went up to God. The Lord called to him out of the mountain, saying, “Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the people of Israel: 4 You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. 5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine; 6 and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words that you shall speak to the people of Israel.”

    Then finally lets look at Exodus 24:

    24:1 Then he said to Moses, “Come up to the Lord, you and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and worship from afar. 2 Moses alone shall come near to the Lord, but the others shall not come near, and the people shall not come up with him.” 3 Moses came and told the people all the words of the Lord and all the rules. And all the people answered with one voice and said, “All the words that the Lord has spoken we will do.” 4 And Moses wrote down all the words of the Lord. He rose early in the morning and built an altar at the foot of the mountain, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel. 5 And he sent young men of the people of Israel, who offered burnt offerings and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen to the Lord. 6 And Moses took half of the blood and put it in basins, and half of the blood he threw against the altar. 7 Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it in the hearing of the people. And they said, “All that the Lord has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient.” 8 And Moses took the blood and threw it on the people and said, “Behold the blood of the covenant that the Lord has made with you in accordance with all these words.” 9 Then Moses and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel went up, 10 and they saw the God of Israel. There was under his feet as it were a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness. 11 And he did not lay his hand on the chief men of the people of Israel; they beheld God, and ate and drank.12 The Lord said to Moses, “Come up to me on the mountain and wait there, that I may give you the tablets of stone, with the law and the commandment, which I have written for their instruction.” 13 So Moses rose with his assistant Joshua, and Moses went up into the mountain of God. 14 And he said to the elders, “Wait here for us until we return to you. And behold, Aaron and Hur are with you. Whoever has a dispute, let him go to them.”

    Now I have to ask you brother C. Was the Law given so that people could identify what was an obey or was the Law a conditional covenant give to the people of Israel for a specific purpose? What if the Gentiles in the boarding countries followed this Law would God give them “land to possess” and promise to destroy their enemies? The answer should be no. Just like you over hear me making a business deal with my neighbor. If we agreed to him doing my lawn for $50 and then you overheard that and came and cut my grass and invoiced me am I obligate to pay? No, because the covenant (agreement) wasn’t between you and I it was between me and my neighbor.

    Let me know what you think bro. Sorry for all of the verses.

    SJ,

    The Law was a legal covenant document between Israel and God, and has no bearing on the Christian or non-Christian for that matter. It is the Law of Christ brother.

    
    
30. on February 12, 2008 at 2:46 pm | Reply Mr. Horton Sr.

    Wow this has gotten serious. Wish i could have got in to this earlier to add some input but it looks as if all has already been said. Honestly Lionel I think where you are coming from could not be more accurate. Most people have not delved into the common misconceptions of the so called “moral law” which has no biblical grounding whatsoever. For those of you who think what Lionel is saying sounds a bit far fetched I recommend 2 books if Lionel has not already. Abraham’s Four Seeds by John G Reisinger(which is a Biblical examination of the presuppositions of Covenant Theology and Dispensationslism) & Tablets of Stone and the History of Redemption also by John G Reisinger. This will close the deal for many of you on this topic especially the second one mentioned-God Bless in Christ

    
    
31. on June 20, 2008 at 5:46 pm | Reply Henry

    It’s Datsun, not Dotson, you typical stupid Christian.