The Island Prophet Thabiti Anyabwile posted recently on Barack Obama. He wrote,
One great irony would be if it were finally the weakness of the African-American church that effectively destroyed the first viable presidential bid of an African American. So many people tout the African-American church for its historic role in promoting justice, but few have seen the connection between sound theology and any true effort at justice. In a sad turn of events, it may be by God’s hand the Sen. Obama campaign that forces global light on the damnable heresies and errors, the counterfeit Christianity present in so many churches.
Well, yesterday Richard Cohen of the Washington Post wrote an Op-ed piece on Obama’s church, Trinity United Church of Christ, pastored by Dr. Jeremiah A. Wright. He mentions the church because of their decision last year to give their honorary Trumpeter Award to a man who “truly epitomized greatness”– Louis Farrakhan! Writes Cohen:
It’s important to state right off that nothing in Obama’s record suggests he harbors anti-Semitic views or agrees with Wright when it comes to Farrakhan. Instead, as Obama’s top campaign aide, David Axelrod, points out, Obama often has said that he and his minister sometimes disagree. Farrakhan, Axelrod told me, is one of those instances.
Fine. But where I differ with Axelrod and, I assume, Obama is that praise for an anti-Semitic demagogue is not a minor difference or an intrachurch issue. The Obama camp takes the view that its candidate, now that he has been told about the award, is under no obligation to speak out on the Farrakhan matter. It was not Obama’s church that made the award but a magazine. This is a distinction without much of a difference. And given who the parishioner is, the obligation to speak out is all the greater. He could be the next American president. Where is his sense of outrage?
I too am concerned about this strange tribute. In a day where religion is playing such a huge role in politics and in campaigns, I find it odd that Gov. Huckabee gets question after question on issues like creationism, inerrancy and BF&M 2000, while no one questions Sen. Obama on his overtly Afro-centric church background.
And, in case you hadn’t heard, Obama is quickly being known as “the most pro-choice candidate ever”. Terence Jeffrey notes,
He is so pro-abortion he refused as an Illinois state senator to support legislation to protect babies who survived late-term abortions because he did not want to concede — as he explained in a cold-blooded speech on the Illinois Senate floor — that these babies, fully outside their mothers’ wombs, with their hearts beating and lungs heaving, were in fact “persons.”
As some people would rather focus on foreign policy or the economy in this year’s election, and I do believe that those are important issues within a biblical framework, but I have a hard time taking a candidate’s words on hope and promise seriously when he is a member of a supremacist church and when he lobbies against the unborn.
Not only is this contradictory to hope and promise, but it is also contradictory to itself. Even though I am much opposed to the idea of black supremacy just as I am white supremacy, polka-dot supremacy and all the other supremacies besides God’s supremacy, how can a person even assume such a high pedastal for blacks and at the same time support a practice that systematically kills off blacks?
Hope that supports (at least by church membership) the elevation of one race over another and the slaughtering of the unborn and, apparently, even the born, is not hope regardless of the rhetoric. As Christians, we need to point out inconsistencies like this. We who are the only ones with a true, God-given hope (cf. 1 Pet. 1:3-5) must be able to give a defense of such hope (1 Pet. 3:15) so that racism and abortion masquerading as hope can be exposed as yet more lies, and the truth of the Gospel will be exalted.
Curious,
When I talked to another about the issue, there answer was “Be Realistic. No one’s perfect, and if you’re going to be practical, you have to choose the lesser of two evils.”
The conversation then went on to discussing how the evils of abortion and homosexuality were not as important as things such as the spread of Islam and other things.
Perhaps the problem here is that too many Christians are so concerned with choosing a candidate who SAYS he’s pro-life, anti-homosexual (and all the other Conservative buzz words) that they forget about electing someone with at least half a brain.
You know, we really are not electing a Priest/King. We are not a theocracy – we never were. So why are we making our candidates meet the requirements of being ‘unspotted’ by any form of sin?
But what I find interesting about most Conservatives is they will cling with all hope to hear their candidates say, “of course, I’m pro-life, look I voted to support this bill or do away with that one” while back at home, this candidate would have committed adultery AND aborted the child from that union.
Our real hope should be in Christ Jesus and His ability to sustain us in this wicked world. The politicians (of any party) will never come close.
Hey Denise,
Thanks for stopping by and leaving a comment. I appreciate the dialogue. With that said, let me ask you some questions if that is okay.
1. Would you say someone who is thinks life doesn’t start at conception has a full brain?
2. Do you think it is wrong for Christians to vote their spiritual convictions?
3. Which Conservative candidate are you referring to?
4. Do you think it is wrong for a Christian to want someone in office who holds the same convictions?
5. Finally, which presidential candidate do you think is best fit to run this country?
This one is for kicks
1. Do you think a nation who gives God the middle finger as a whole can expect anything other than his wrath? None of us are looking for a Theocracy as a matter of fact that would be the worst thing for Christians. But we are looking for somone who upholds a sense of morality and the murder of the helpless is one hill many of us are willing to die on.
Denise, I echo your words. We are not electing a Priest/King. We as Christians, however, ought to have a biblical understanding of government so that we may vote accordingly in our democratic nation. This, by the way, includes much more than just marriage and abortion. This is where I disagree with one-issue voting. If Strom Thurmond ran for president today, I would not vote for him simply because he was pro-life (though that wasn’t a political platform in his day). We have to be consistent in our biblical worldview. It is more than just marriage and abortion, but it certainly is not less. How one handles those issues can give us insight to their handling of other issues.
We must understand, though, that we aren’t voting for a Messiah. There will not be a person who is thoroughly Christ-centered in their political platform. This is both because of personal depravity and because of the flawed political system that is run by depraved people. So we must prayerfully vote with much wisdom, resting as you said in the sovereignty of God. As Christians we know that in the end as in the beginning he sits in his holy temple; thus we as well as all the earth ought to keep silence before him (Hab. 2:20).
Definately feel where you’re coming from, Brah (Ronjour Locke).
If I may say, does anyone here feel that perhaps more focus/power is often placed/seen in “the vote” than other things as what our primary focus/means of changing things is?
Hi Lionel,
Let me answer your questions, as well as ask you a few:
1. Would you say someone who is thinks life doesn’t start at conception has a full brain?
It’s very possible that they would. Do you believe a person can be both intelligent and immoral? All kinds of people have “moral beliefs”, believers and unbelievers (even atheists). Do you think someone with half a brain should run a country?
2. Do you think it is wrong for Christians to vote their spiritual convictions?
I don’t think Christians should do anything without spiritual convictions: go to work, hire a plumber, go on vacation, etc. When it comes to politics, do you think all politicians who say they are a Christians (or hold Chrisitan beliefs) are honest when they say this? Is it possible that they are not Christians but like many people think they are? Let’s say they are true Christians, will they always make decisions for a nation filled with both Chrisitans and non-Christians, based on Bibllical beliefs? Or will they like other well-meaning ‘Chrisitan’ politicians make compromises (like the rest of us saved Christians do)?
3. Which Conservative candidate are you referring to?
As far as which problem? Actually, I’m not watching/listening to the 2008 election news, so I don’t know what any of them are saying? But my guess is that it’s basically the same soup warmed over from the last election.
4. Do you think it is wrong for a Christian to want someone in office who holds the same convictions?
No, it’s not wrong at all. But I would say it’s a bit unrealistic to think this person would hold to these convictions in all decisions they make. Compromise is inherit in politics. A Christian who feels led by God to undertake such a public service had first better be sure if he’s really following God’s lead, and second be ready to stick very close to God as he goes through the coming storm. After all, he’s not leading a Sunday school class, but a nation of vipers ;o).
5. Finally, which presidential candidate do you think is best fit to run this country?
I have no idea. I will pray before going into the voting booth, and pray for whomever the Electoral College puts in office. I try to focus on Christ as my true leader, and God, as in control of the world.
This one is for kicks
1. Do you think a nation who gives God the middle finger as a whole can expect anything other than his wrath? None of us are looking for a Theocracy as a matter of fact that would be the worst thing for Christians. But we are looking for somone who upholds a sense of morality and the murder of the helpless is one hill many of us are willing to die on.
No more than Israel and several other countries in the bible who gave God the ‘middle finger’. I have no qualms about anyone seeking a candidate (for any office) who proclaims to uphold moral beliefs. The bottom line is, we won’t really know what they believe or will do until they get in office, won’t we? So many people who lauded Bush for his ‘pro-life’ stand, had no idea his lies would land their military son/daughter in an early grave for an unnecessary war. I think you should be very pro-life! But, unless I missed something, the president doesn’t have the authority to outlaw abortions (as if that would stop them). Our best weapon is prayer and outreach to those in positions to have the abortions in the first place. They need to know about our Savior, they already know all the ‘arugments’ about whether or not they’re killing they’re child. The human mind has a way of rationalizing sin, ya know. If you feel led by God to ‘fight’ this sin of abortion in our land, may God’s peace and strength be upon you. I ask that you please make sure you’re listening to Him for direction, and not to any political candidate – who are known to make “promises” to get in office.
Thanks Denise, great conversation and I appreciate your heart to want to convey what you believe is important. I want to address the questions you rose.
1. You can be both. Intelligent and Moral or Unintelligent and moral or immoral and unintelligent or intelligent and immoral. Once again we are not looking for Christians but those with strong moral convictions. Many non-christians fall into that category.
2. I don’t believe that all people who profess to hold a conviction actually hold that conviction other than the way they have voted and what positions they have taken stands on while they were in office. Hence Barrack is not only for early term but also partial birth abortion.
3. I don’t know if you are referring to Bush but his entire office has been one of morality (depending on how you take the war).
4. I agree. But if that compromise is a hill I will die on, then he doesn’t get my vote.
5. The same for me, but one thing is for sure, it is not Barrak!
6. A) True we will not know for sure but we can see what they have done as a politician up until now and make some very good guesses.
B) We may disagree about the war, so I will not go there. I think it could be better handled but I think it is extreme to say completely unnecassry.
C) As it relates to our best weapon being prayer, do you take the same stance as it relates to pedophiles, murderers, rapist, and thieves? The answer is no, we don’t mind legislating that but for some reason we are convinced that abortion doesn’t fall into the categories above. That is because we are heavily influenced by our culture who wants to debate when life begins. Christians understand it clearly and as it relates to “Life and Liberty” in our own constitution that unborn fetus should have the same rights. So we will do what it takes to get the judges (through presidential nominees) on the Supreme Court who agree with us “pro-lifers”.
Once again thanks for the exhange.
To clarify further,
I used to be under the impression that what always affected things POLICITALLY was my vote/the cannidate that I chose.
If I didn’t find a cannidate who perfectly held to what my values were, then it often felt like I was being ineffective…..and if a cannidate came up who supported things I hated (abortion, homosexuality, etc), then I just had to deal with it. This has been something that has greatly troubled me with our cannidates.
Mitt Rommey’s a Mormon who has been guilty of supporting the same things he says he’s against when he used to be governor (abortion, etc), Gullianni is pro-abortion/gay rights,…the same with Obama (who’s for abortion, and attends a church that supports Farakan)……and though Mike Huckabee seems to be the only solid one who I’d vote for, he’’s both supporting & recieving his support from Copeland and Hagee, who are guilty of spreading MANY False teachings damaging to the faith.
Either way you slice it, you cannot help but feel that by voting for any of them you’re helping to spread some sort of wrong.
Something that God’s reminded me of:
1 Timothy 2
Instructions on Worship
1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. 7And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.
8I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.
God is all-powerful and all-knowing. That’s what it means to be Sovereign….
However, as Sovereign as the Lord is, in my understanding He has chosen to let us help Him change the World through OUR PRAYERS.
How this works is a mystery to us due to our limited understanding……but it is a reality. Whoever comes into authority, we’ve been called to pray so that their societies will be conducive to the spread of the Gospel. It’s pretty interesting to note that Paul’s command to pray for kings is remarkable considering that Nero, a notorisously cruel ruler, was emperor at the time (A.D. 54-68)….and when Paul wrote this letter, persecution was a GROWING THREAT TO BELIEVERS….
Honestly, how seriously do we take many of the examples of PRAYER and the many things it changes/affects?
It changes attitudes/events—Exodus 32:9-14
It’s a sin to fail in praying for others–I Samuel 12:23
It’s saved nations and can change events—II Kings 19:1-7, II Chronicles 7:13-17, Daniel 2:16-18, Isaiah 38:1-43
We’re encouraged to be PERSISTENT in it and have been promised that we can ask the Lord for anything—-Matthew 7:7-12, Matthew 21:22, Mark 10:42-45
Should precede important decisions—Luke 6:12, James 5:16-18
Important to Evangelism—-Luke 10:2
There are numerous other examples than these, but they are thing to think about. I wonder how often the focus in politics in on “Who has my convitions and will most likely change things?” distrats from the other things God says are powerful.
It’s something that God says if we’re persistent in it, HE’LL GRANT US JUSTICE WHICH WE CRY OUT FOR (Luke 18:1-10)
Would it be fair to say that voting for our convictions may not necessarily be the thing to focus on?
Just as God moved in the heart of Cyrus, so that his decree fulfilled the prophecies of Jeremiah (Jeremiah 25:8-12; Jeremiah 27:21-22; Jeremiah 29:10-14 )and Isaiah, with Cyrus being God’s servant (Isaiah 44:28-45:9 ), as well as Nebuchadnezzar (Jeremiah 25:9),….or even with Joseph in Egypt/having the support of unbelieving pharoah, so I believe the same’s possible today.
It’s not wrong to vote….and nothing wrong with wishing to vote 4 men holding to our convictions or who’ll stand up for JUSTICE. That’s Biblical….
http://www.gotquestions.org/Christians-vote.html
http://www.frontline.org.za/articles/should_christians.htm
http://www.frontline.org.za/articles/civil_disobedience_bible.htm
http://www.frontline.org.za/articles/if_my_people.htm
http://www.frontline.org.za/articles/biblical_principles.htm
Nonetheless, the fact remains that ULTIMATELY God places men into power (despite how many of them were unbelievers, held stances he hated, and yet were used by Him for His Purposes—-whether it be DISPENCING GRACE OR WRATH), ….
http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=256
http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=4040
http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=125
http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=819
http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=256
http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=2
http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=113030
And in the case that a bad man gets elected and perhaps accelerates the sins WE’VE CHOSEN to the point of destruction, wouldn’t be surprised. As Brother Lionel said, Do you think a nation who gives God the middle finger as a whole can expect anything other than his wrath?
“For the nation or kingdom that will not serve You will perish, it will be utterly ruined”. Isaiah 60:12
“Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord …” Psalm 33:12
Psalm 144
A couple of responses to some of your statements/questions:
2. At least that’s how he voted at one time. Who knows what he will do once he gets in. Who knows what our country will be going through during his term. And who knows how these possible changes would affect his faith/beliefs about anything. This is why when we look too closely at everything they did when they were a [senator, governor, dog catcher] we start to form opinions about them that may shatter once they get the reins. Not saying we shouldn’t look at anything about them, just be mindful that they are mere humans, and they need our prayers if/when they do take office. I think it’s best to pray and ask God to oversee the whole election process and help us to properly pray for whomever He puts in.
3. From what I can tell there were few people in Bush’s cabinet who I would call ‘moral’, including the commander-in-chief himself. As for the war, I believe it was started based on lies. How it is fitting into the larger world picture, time will tell us.
4. Yeah, but you wouldn’t see this compromise until he got in office.
C) Are you suggesting that prayer should not be a weapon for ANY of the sins/ills of our society? We don’t know the heart of each pedophile, murderer, rapist, or thief out there, so how should we then assume that we know how far away they are from salvation? As we come across them, or see them on tv or what have you, it wouldn’t hurt to pray for their salvation – unless you feel led by God not to.
As for the pregnant women considering abortion, I applaud the efforts of Crisis Pregnancy Centers for their efforts (that’s an example of outreach). I wouldn’t compare a woman wrestling with a decision about abortion (no, they aren’t all cold and callous) to a rapist or pedophile. I don’t consider all these women murderers; some are, but I think a good deal of them are guilty of manslaughter – thank God I don’t know their hearts or their intent and I don’t need to, but their Maker does.. I know that life begins at conception. I am in no way condoning abortion, which I believe is a sin. I see abortion as primarily a sin of selfishness (I don’t want this child to inconvenience me; I don’t want my husband to know I cheated, I don’t want this [biracial] baby, etc.). As for getting the ‘right’ judges, it’s not going to matter if the law has changed, but the hearts of the real killers (the pregnant women and doctors) have not. Nevertheless, keep fighting as you’ve been led, Lionel. Just make sure the Lord is leading you, and not any allegiance to a political ideal.
And I thank you for the exchange
)
1. I agree to pray for anyone in office and support them with every fiber of my life as I am commanded in 1 Timothy 2.
2. I believe prayer and evangelism is the only answer to all of the world woes; however, I can easily say the poor pedophile was raped as a kid and he can’t help it either. I agree it is a sin of selfishness but so is the thief and the rapist. They want what they want and they want it now. I don’t know if anyone getting an abortion is a victim (unless they were raped). No one is clueless about the consequences of premarital sex. I do think we are to be gracious to those who have had them in the past and very stern on those on their way to abort.
So yes we pray, we love, and we open our churches and lives to those who have fallen into the sin of sexual immorality and now have a life growing inside of them. I think our churches are way to judgmental and abrasive to young pregnant women and those are the ones I would definitely consider victims. We are to be a venue of grace and love and sometimes we are worse and colder than the world (referring to the universal church).
I by no means affiliate with any party and didnt’ even vote last year due to niether of the candidates being worthy of my time. I was choosing between worse and worser. So I didn’t vote for Bush in the last election and I can’t say who I will vote for this year. It will be difficult, but no I am not of any paticular party other than that of Christ.
Bro. Lionel:
“I by no means affiliate with any party and didnt’ even vote last year due to niether of the candidates being worthy of my time. I was choosing between worse and worser. So I didn’t vote for Bush in the last election and I can’t say who I will vote for this year. It will be difficult, but no I am not of any paticular party other than that of Christ.”
Cool beans, Brah. (if interested, you could always go with someone from the U.S Constitution Party, as their platform has always seemed to be the most Biblical…and they were the party I voted for when I was having the same battles you were having between voting for worse or worser):
Also, definately feel you on being apart of no paticular party other than that of Christ….cause Christ wasn’t apart of one anyhow. And in any case, as He told Pilate, whoever was in charge was there due to divine mandate.
To Ms (or Mrs) Denise: I really liked what you stated when you said, ” when we look too closely at everything they did when they were a [senator, governor, dog catcher] we start to form opinions about them that may shatter once they get the reins. Not saying we shouldn’t look at anything about them, just be mindful that they are mere humans, and they need our prayers if/when they do take office. I think it’s best to pray and ask God to oversee the whole election process and help us to properly pray for whomever He puts in.
On that last point, I’d like to ask if perhaps there’s a hint of fatalism to the election process? And that even with examining the men ahead of time or even praying ahead of time, that some things might me “fixed”?
To clarify, God is all-powerful and all-knowing. That’s what it means to be Sovereign….
Just as God moved in the heart of Cyrus, so that his decree fulfilled the prophecies of Jeremiah (Jeremiah 25:8-12; Jeremiah 27:21-22; Jeremiah 29:10-14 )and Isaiah, with Cyrus being God’s servant (Isaiah 44:28-45:9 ), as well as Nebuchadnezzar (Jeremiah 25:9),….or even with Joseph in Egypt/having the support of unbelieving pharoah, so I believe the same’s possible today.
It’s not wrong to vote….and nothing wrong with wishing to vote 4 men holding to our convictions or who’ll stand up for JUSTICE OR seeking to promote a government that does RIGHTEOUSNESS. That’s Biblical….
http://www.frontline.org.za/articles/should_christians.htm
http://www.frontline.org.za/articles/civil_disobedience_bible.htm
http://www.frontline.org.za/articles/if_my_people.htm
http://www.frontline.org.za/articles/biblical_principles.htm
Nonetheless, in my understanding, the fact remains that ULTIMATELY God places men into power (despite how many of them were unbelievers, held stances he hated, and yet were used by Him for His Purposes—-whether it be DISPENCING GRACE OR WRATH), ….
http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=256
http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=4040
http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=125
http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=819
http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=256
http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=2
http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=113030
And in the case that a bad man gets elected and perhaps accelerates the sins WE’VE CHOSEN to the point of destruction, wouldn’t be surprised.
As Brother Lionel said, Do you think a nation who gives God the middle finger as a whole can expect anything other than his wrath?
“For the nation or kingdom that will not serve You will perish, it will be utterly ruined”. Isaiah 60:12
“Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord …” Psalm 33:12
Psalm 144
Lionel,
The website is a tremendous upgrade, from the former.
And this subject, has been handled well by you. The repsonses are insightful and predictable.
Across the nation we are engaged in a battle of ideas and priorties, Values and how to get them implimented into society. Hagels dialiectical process, is at work.
” Thesis vs antitheis = synthesis” or compromise
It is so abundantly clear that, different temperaments and character traits of persons, as those visiting your cite, will always vote, in oopsition to the others, and seemingly beyond the concept of, voting according to biblical convictions.
As I stated in a bible study last week, among a group of predominately African Americans, if Obama gets in I will support him, insofar as the office of president goes.
But, it is impossible to support His policies, or anyone else, once I know that their convictions spack totally against the plain truth of scripture, and especially in so critical of areas.
Abortion/ homosexuality/and the way to God. Which when you search the scriptures, are not really distinctly different issues. Rom1 – James4
It really does boils down to two cultures- one of life, and one of death.
I cannot vote, against the truth! And know it.
I’m feeling ya Emissary…Last election I voted for the Constitution Party candidate for President. A lot of my friends said I wasted my vote but if I prayed about who I felt the Lord would want me to vote for and I felt convicted that way then how did I waste my vote. BTW, I don’t feel compelled as a Christian to feel that I have to vote. It’s a freedom and liberty we have as Americans but I see know responsibility to have to vote. But in case you’re wondering…I just heard the other day that Alan Keyes is leaving the Republican party (thank God) and will be running for President under the Constitution Party. Will he win? Doubt it. Will I vote for him? You better believe it!!! He’s not perfect (who is?) but I have been fascinated with him for years!!! America probably couldn’t stand this guy for President, though. He’s unapologetically Christian and he’s black. I know Obama claims to be Christian (really?) and he’s black as well but the country isn’t threatened by him like they would be with Alan. He doesn’t just claim to be a Christian, he’s living it and trying to turn this country back to some as semblance of decency through good ol’ fashioned Judeo-Christian values. Hey, if Alan Keyes is running for President then even a white guy from Lancaster, PA can have a dream too!!!!!
Gotta love Allen Keys, Brah…and thanks for the comments dude.